Lutherans, Is This True?

[EvangelCatholic]

Before every Mass, every weekend and at any other time one wishes just by calling the priest? We are advised to go to confession at least once a month. You are correct, however, there are relatively few who go on a regular basis. Its a shame. What an incredible sacrament. Communion without confession is like kissing your beloved after not brushing your teeth for two weeks.

This is essentially the practice among Lutherans, as well. I made my first confession before I was confirmed, per the expectation. In the seminary, private confession became a tremendous benefit to my spiritual growth and I seek Holy Absolution several times a year [mainly during Lent and right before Easter].

But Lutherans, in general, receive corporate Absolution at the beginning of Mass just as Roman Catholics. So our sins are absolved by the pastor each time we go to Holy Communion.

 

[benjohnson]

Excommunication is not damnation. Luther could have repented at any time and come back to the Church. That was his decision and he persisted in it.

Without quite agreeing with you as Excommunication puts you outside the Church - The second Papal Bull (Decet Romanum Pontificem) makes it clear, and has the phrase:

“by this means they may escape divine vengeance and any degree of participation in their damnation.”

 

[benjohnson]

Alright, but what I was getting at is, from what I’ve heard Lutherans (early as well as modern) don’t call the pope “the anti-Christ”.

Frankly, I think there’s a few WELS and LC-MS authors that need to tone down the rhetoric.

Using the phrase “the Antichrist” is not appropriate in this era of slightly too-powerfull but goodly Popes.

You’ll never hear the phrase out of my mouth unless I’m trying to explain that some of my more strident brothers are at lease not referring to all that crazy modern-era Revelation business.

 

[benjohnson]

Alright, but what I was getting at is, from what I’ve heard Lutherans (early as well as modern) don’t call the pope “the anti-Christ”.

Frankly, I think there’s a few WELS and LC-MS authors that need to tone down the rhetoric.

Using the phrase “the Antichrist” is not appropriate in this era of slightly too-powerfull but goodly Popes.

You’ll never hear the phrase out of my mouth unless I’m trying to explain that some of my more strident brothers are at lease not referring to all that crazy modern-era Revelation business.

 

[ServantPD]

Without quite agreeing with you as Excommunication puts you outside the Church - The second Papal Bull (Decet Romanum Pontificem) makes it clear, and has the phrase:

“by this means they may escape divine vengeance and any degree of participation in their damnation.”

If Luther took back what he said about the Church - not even if it was on his last ten minutes of deathbed - he’d be forgiven for that and been placed in the Church just as he was (well, except for not being a monk anymore due to breaking his vows, but bear with me here! ). The Church has no authority to condemn one to damnation without God’s judgement, and never claimed to do so.

 

[Peter_J]

This is essentially the practice among Lutherans, as well. I made my first confession before I was confirmed, per the expectation. In the seminary, private confession became a tremendous benefit to my spiritual growth and I seek Holy Absolution several times a year [mainly during Lent and right before Easter].

**But Lutherans, in general, receive corporate Absolution at the beginning of Mass just as Roman Catholics. **So our sins are absolved by the pastor each time we go to Holy Communion.

Actually, Roman Catholics *don’t *receive the Sacrament of Absolution during the mass.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Actually, Roman Catholics *don’t *receive the Sacrament of Absolution during the mass.

You are correct. But the Lutheran pastor absolves all present who have humbly confessed their sins and seek forgiveness by making the sign of the holy cross in the name of the Holy Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Amen

 

[MaryT777]

In response to posts 152 through 156 (I trust I don’t need to quote them all ): Before you two go any further, may I suggest that Mary was simply trying to understand Lutheranism better?

Uh oh, my name is here. Let me go back through the thread later and review what I posted as it was not intended to give any offense at all. If it was my post about how often private confession is done in the LCMS which God forbid I posted something else offensive, it was simply out of trying to understand how private confession works as the LCMS services I have attended as a visitor have a general confession at the beginning of every service I have attended.

Mary.

 

[Peter_J]

Frankly, I think there’s a few WELS and LC-MS authors that need to tone down the rhetoric.

Using the phrase “the Antichrist” is not appropriate in this era of slightly too-powerfull but goodly Popes.

You’ll never hear the phrase out of my mouth unless I’m trying to explain that some of my more strident brothers are at lease not referring to all that crazy modern-era Revelation business.

Interesting … Now that you mention it, I think the video I linked earlier did say “the Anti-Christ”. But I thought that was the rare exception, and that conservative Lutheran consistently use the language of “the pope is Anti-Christ” (not “the Anti-Christ”).

 

[Peter_J]

Uh oh, my name is here. Let me go back through the thread later and review what I posted as it was not intended to give any offense at all.

Give offense? I don’t think you did that at all, although you seemed to have opened the door to an “interesting” side discussion.

 

[SteveVH]

Without quite agreeing with you as Excommunication puts you outside the Church - The second Papal Bull (Decet Romanum Pontificem) makes it clear, and has the phrase:

“by this means they may escape divine vengeance and any degree of participation in their damnation.”

Excommunication places one outside the Church, you are correct. But it is the person himself who chooses to remain outside of the Church. If one chooses to remain outside of the Church, the mystical Body of Christ, then that person is responsible for their own damnation. We are always responsible for our own damnation. Dividing the Church was no small matter.

 

[steve_b]

Excommunication places one outside the Church, you are correct. But it is the person himself who chooses to remain outside of the Church. If one chooses to remain outside of the Church, the mystical Body of Christ, then that person is responsible for their own damnation. We are always responsible for our own damnation. Dividing the Church was no small matter.

true.

we don’t know what went through Luther’s mind the second of his death but we do know Paul taught the following Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21, and because it’s scripture, we know it was the Holy Spirit that inspired Paul to teach that John 14:25-26. Which means that teaching ultimately came from Jesus. John 16:12-15 . Since Jesus will judge all souls, He is telling us in advance through the HS, through Paul, how He will judge division from His Church. He wants perfect unity John 17:20-23 . And He says, the consequences to a soul for dividing from His Church in this life and dieing in that state, is eternal seperation from Him in the next life. And there is no expiration date on that warning.

This warning extends to all those outside the Church.

 

[SteveVH]

true.

we don’t know what went through Luther’s mind the second of his death but we do know Paul taught the following Romans 16:17-20 , Galatians 5:19-21, and because it’s scripture, we know it was the Holy Spirit that inspired Paul to teach that John 14:25-26. Which means that teaching ultimately came from Jesus. John 16:12-15 . Since Jesus will judge all souls, He is telling us in advance through the HS, through Paul, how He will judge division from His Church. He wants perfect unity John 17:20-23 . And He says, the consequences to a soul for dividing from His Church in this life and dieing in that state, is eternal seperation from Him in the next life. And there is no expiration date on that warning.

This warning extends to all those outside the Church.

Yes. Though we have to be careful to distinguish between Catholics who presumably knew the truth and yet divided from the Church, i.e. the “reformers”, and those born into a faith tradition generations later, when reading these verses.

 

[Peter_J]

Excommunication places one outside the Church, you are correct. But it is the person himself who chooses to remain outside of the Church. If one chooses to remain outside of the Church, the mystical Body of Christ, then that person is responsible for their own damnation. We are always responsible for our own damnation. Dividing the Church was no small matter.

Did Cardinal Humbert choose to remain outside of the Church, after he was excommunicated by the Patriarch of Constantinople?

 

[Peter_J]

Without quite agreeing with you as Excommunication puts you outside the Church -

Was St. John Chrysostom “outside the Church” when he was excommunicated?

 

[benjohnson]

Was St. John Chrysostom “outside the Church” when he was excommunicated?

My point is that excommunication was a big deal, and for the person probably feels pretty darn cruddy. That they then respond in kind is to be expected regardless of the case - hence Luther’s hyperbole and German scheiss jokes.

Even until recently, Catholic excommunication could come with some bonus shunning ( vitandus) thrown in for good measure.

If anybody is feeling down and needs a good way of expressing their displeasure, may I present the Lutheran insulter.

ergofabulous.org/luther/

 

[SteveVH]

My point is that excommunication was a big deal, and for the person probably feels pretty darn cruddy. That they then respond in kind is to be expected regardless of the case - hence Luther’s hyperbole and German scheiss jokes.

I agree.

 

[Novocastrian]

Was St. John Chrysostom “outside the Church” when he was excommunicated?

I get the impression that however much I try I will never understand John Chrysostom and his story

 

[SteveVH]

Did Cardinal Humbert choose to remain outside of the Church, after he was excommunicated by the Patriarch of Constantinople?

He was never out of the Church. The Patriarch, Michael had no authority to excommunicate the Cardinal nor the Pope, IMO. It was a nasty piece of business but this is not the time nor the thread to veer off into those waters.

 

[Novocastrian]

He was never out of the Church. The Patriarch, Michael had no authority to excommunicate the Cardinal nor the Pope, IMO. It was a nasty piece of business but this is not the time nor the thread to veer off into those waters.

As far as I can remember, and I’d be happy to be corrected, the Pope wasn’t excommunicated. This was (a) because the legates were excommunicated for their hostile behaviour towards and in the Constantinopolitan Church, and (b) because the Pope was dead, although Keroularios probably didn’t know this at the time.

The question of Keroualrios’s authority to do so would, however, make a brilliant thread topic. I don’t think I’d have liked either Keroularios or Humbert very much had I known them!