Lutherans on Sin and Forgiveness....please help!

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Juliebug108 said:
Right…so again, God is paying attention to how we live our lives…He sees our sin. It’s not “hidden” from Him.
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If they are hidden from anyone, it is ourselves!
Luke 12:1-3
2 Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 3 Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

1 Cor 4:3-5
I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.
 
Welcome to CAF dio.
diorthosis said:
God still sees when the believer sins, but He doesn’t take them into account.
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One must disregard a number of scriptures to espouse such a view.
diorthosis said:
The difference is that, based on what is revealed in the Scriptures, we understand Christ’s sacrificial work on the cross to have been substitutionary.
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Really? I am curious to learn about this bible verse about “substitutionary”. 😉

In fact if His death had been “substitutionary” he would have gone to hell for eternity, since that is what we earned.
diorthosis said:
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Therefore the divine issue, since Calvary, is not sins but rather personal belief or unbelief in the good news (gospel) concerning Christ and our sins (see John 3:14-18; 5:24; 8:24). Whereas the CC views the cross as only propitiatory. That is, having only appeased God for sins.  Which (it is believed) is presently perpetuated in the Eucharist.  Therefore, they believe, actual sins must still be dealt with sacramentally for forgiveness.
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The “divine issue”?

Since you are new here, I will offer you some advice. It is not a good idea to make assertions like this about what the Catholic Church believes and teaches. Most Catholics here at CAF know their faith quite well, and will easily recognize this uniformed and erroneous statements. Making them really shoots holes in your credibility.

You will not be able to produce any Catholic document that supports these assertions, because they sprang from the mind of some anti-catholic.

It appears you are saying that Catholics believe the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is “presently perpetuated in the Eucharist”. This is opposite of what Catholics believe. You may also not realize that the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. That is why, when it says he died "once for all"with regard to His sacrifice for our sins, it reflects what Catholics believe.

Perhaps you will be able to get some of the misinformation you have been fed about the Catholic faith corrected while you are here.👍
 
diorthosis said:
Which is “perpetuated.” In other words, it’s still not finished.
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Christ’s sacrifice, though it occurred in time, has effects that stand outside of time. We all agree that His once for all sacrifice is applied just the same today as it was to those who walked with him on earth before He was taken up.

Jesus declared from the cross “it is finished”. This testimony was written by a Catholic, for Catholics.

The part that is not finished is we who are alive and remain. Unless we bring ourselves to the foot of the cross (which is what we do in Eucharist) then His sacrifice does not benefit us.
diorthosis said:
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 According to your catechism it's viewed as a (continual) propitiatory sacrifice.I do it in remembrance of Him.  That is, what He did, what He accomplished, once for all, for me.The Apostolic message: Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14.
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It seems that you still have a lot to learn about what “rememberance” means in this context. The Eucharist was instituted through the Passover. If you consider this, you will realize that the annual enactment, or rememberance of the Passover did not recreate the event. It only brought the descendants of God’s deliverance into the once for all exodus from Egypt. I recommend a study of the word “anamnesis” to help with this.
diorthosis said:
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Did not Christ "put away" sin by the sacrifice of Himself (Heb. 9:26)?  Did Peter not say that He bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), and did not Paul testify to the fact that He was made sin (our sins) on our behalf that we (who believe) would become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor. 5:21, the living Christ)?  I agree that this is all quite amazing and many just can't believe it.
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Yes. These are all Catholics, saying Catholic things to other Catholics. 👍
diorthosis said:
All sins have their immediate, natural and societal consequences.
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yes, I agree. However, sin also has eternal consequences. The nature of sin has not changed. Sin separataes people from God.
diorthosis said:
But what was removed in Christ was the eternal consequence of all sins for the one who believes in Him (John 5:24). That’s what the cross is all about. He bore them and died to them, once for all. He being the ultimate sin sacrifice. They weren’t His sins, they were ours. The issue now, in respect to eternal consequences, is to believe or not believe (John 3:14-18).
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When a person commits a mortal sin, one is acting outside of faith. Such a person can not be said to be “in HIm”. This is why it is necessary to be reconciled to God, and to t e Church.
 
 
guanophore said:
It seems that you still have a lot to learn about what “rememberance” means in this context. The Eucharist was instituted through the Passover. If you consider this, you will realize that the annual enactment, or rememberance of the Passover did not recreate the event. It only brought the descendants of God’s deliverance into the once for all exodus from Egypt. I recommend a study of the word “anamnesis” to help with this.
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Thank you for the recommendation. I did do a study on the Greek word “anamnesis.” It’s used only four places in the N.T.: Lk. 22:19; 1 Cor. 11:24,25, and Heb. 10:3. In all the passages it means “a call to mind.” In the Luke and 1 Corininthian passages it’s a calling to mind (again) the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ. In the Hebrew passage (in context) it means a remembrance of sins, i.e., an awaking of the mind. The writer of Hebrews pointed out that the continual sacrifices done by the Priests under the Mosaic Law demonstrated and brought to the mind of the Jew (yearly) that those sacrifices never took away/put away sin: "Heb 10:4 “For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.”

Contrasting those sacrifices with the one time, once for all (time), sacrifice of the Person of Jesus Christ which actually “put away” sin once for all he writes:

Heb. 9:26 “Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (cf. Acts 3:19).

Heb 10:10 “By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Heb 10:12 “…but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.”

Heb 10:14 “For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.”

In each instance the Greek word “anamnesis” has to do with a person’s mind. A call to remembrance and/or a reminder of something (recollection). That’s all.

“Anamnesis” is from “anamimnesko,” which means to call to mind, to recollect; from “mimnesko,” which means to recall to mind - be mindful, remember (Ref. Vine’s Expository Dict.; Strong’s Concordance; Young’s Analytical Concordance).
 
guanophore said:
If they are hidden from anyone, it is ourselves!
Luke 12:1-3
2 Nothing is covered up that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 3 Therefore whatever you have said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

1 Cor 4:3-5
I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.
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Great passages! Thanks 😃
 
This protestant position just seems to contradict Jesus’ teachings if you ask me. Also, it’s just so convenient isn’t it? If a man were to kill his wife in cold blood, and then decide “you know, I believe in Jesus now,” and then were to get hit by a bus and die - there is nothing anyone can say to me that will convince me that his faith alone saved him. I would pray for his soul…but I would seriously doubt his salvation.

What a dangerous thing to teach people. The whole once saved always saved, sins being hidden from God stuff just seems REALLY flawed, dangerous, and contradictory to so much of what the Bible teaches us. God gave CONDITIONS for us:
  1. repentance
  2. confession
  3. baptism
  4. the Eucharist
Jesus said that if we didn’t forgive the sins of those who sinned against us, then the Father wouldn’t forgive ours. Jesus told the apostles when instituting confession that any sins they bound on earth would be bound in Heaven. Jesus taught people to SIN NO MORE. Was he lying to us when he said these things? I think not!

Anyway…I’m siding with the Catholics on this matter. 🙂

Peace and blessings,
Julie
 
Big_Dummy said:
lutherantheologystudygroup.blogspot.com/2011/03/christs-imputed-righteousness-alien-or.html

sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=31376&forum=36&9

searchingtogether.org/articles/johnson/imputation.htm

home.comcast.net/~dougpatton2/Graham/ImputedRighteousness.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imputed_righteousness

lutherantheology.com/uploads/works/wabiotg/10-Justfication,_Objective_and_Subjective.html

sounddoctrine.net/Nick/imputation.htm

imarc.cc/edit/jeffpaton16.htm

openbible.info/topics/imputation

soulwinning.info/bd/imputation.htm
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Thanks for the links…some of those are super anti-Catholic though… just so you know: siting the “evils of Catholicism”…I don’t think this is an appropriate place to post such links. Also, I appreciate you taking the time to find this information, but many of those are also from the Baptist denomination…really not what I’m looking for. Thanks for the Lutheran links though.

Peace and blessings,
Julie
 
CB_Catholic said:
I am not Lutheran, but I have heard this idea preached in other non-Catholic churches. I remember it being stated that our sins are “covered” by the Blood of Jesus, so that God does not see them. The Catholic Church, however, teaches that our sins are cleansed
by the Blood of Jesus. God sees them.

Lutherans here can answer your question, but I don’t think it is an exclusively Lutheran concept, because it is taught in other denominations.
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At the risk of this question being answered already (I have not read the entire thread yet) I believe the Catholic Church teaches, as you stated, that our souls are cleansed from sin, not covered. I would only disagree in that, once this occurs, God does not see our sins because they no longer exist. He “remembers them no more”. It is as if they had never occurred.
 
SteveVH said:
At the risk of this question being answered already (I have not read the entire thread yet) I believe the Catholic Church teaches, as you stated, that our souls are cleansed from sin, not covered. I would only disagree in that, once this occurs, God does not see our sins because they no longer exist. He “remembers them no more”. It is as if they had never occurred.
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You are correct–the sin is remembered no more because it is cleansed. But God sees the sin when we commit them. Nothing is hidden from God. What they are saying is that once one is "saved’ or whatever, God no longer sees sins because they are covered by the Blood of Jesus. Catholics believe God sees our sin every time we sin, but once we repent and receive absolution, we are cleansed, our sins are not merely covered. Many Protestants believe that once you are saved or born again or whatever they choose to call it, God cannot see any further sins because they are covered by the Blood of Jesus. Not all believe this, but many definitely do. I have sat and listened to preachers preach this. It never made sense to me, because if sin is merely covered, it still remains. Some believe that once you are “saved” you are always saved, no matter what you do after. They believe you cannot lose your salvation. I don’t think this is the Lutheran position generally, but I don’t know that much about them. But it is preached in many churches.

And to correct any false notions about the Sacrament of Confession that some of our non-Catholic brethern may have–if you confess your sins but are not repentant of them, it does you absolutely no good, and you are in worse shape than when you started. You can’t run to Confession and confess sins intending to commit them again. God is no fool.
 
Juliebug108 said:
This protestant position just seems to contradict Jesus’ teachings if you ask me. Also, it’s just so convenient isn’t it? If a man were to kill his wife in cold blood, and then decide “you know, I believe in Jesus now,” and then were to get hit by a bus and die - there is nothing anyone can say to me that will convince me that his faith alone saved him. I would pray for his soul…but I would seriously doubt his salvation.

What a dangerous thing to teach people. The whole once saved always saved, sins being hidden from God stuff just seems REALLY flawed, dangerous, and contradictory to so much of what the Bible teaches us. God gave CONDITIONS for us:
  1. repentance
  2. confession
  3. baptism
  4. the Eucharist
Jesus said that if we didn’t forgive the sins of those who sinned against us, then the Father wouldn’t forgive ours. Jesus told the apostles when instituting confession that any sins they bound on earth would be bound in Heaven. Jesus taught people to SIN NO MORE. Was he lying to us when he said these things? I think not!

Anyway…I’m siding with the Catholics on this matter. 🙂

Peace and blessings,
Julie
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Julie, you know who it is that is tugging at your heart…
 
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