Lutherans - Roman Catholics/Points for Discussion

[TriuneUnity]

Since ProdigalSon1 posted a thread on the topic of unification of churches, I thought that I would begin a series specifically focusing on the disagreements that exist between Roman Catholics and Lutherans. The nature of the disagreements is not the same as exists between Rome and other Protestant communions. Therefore, I thought it may be helpful for greater dialogue between us and our separated Roman (and Eastern, for that matter) brethren to maybe have a little back and forth on those disagreements. Of course, we pray that someday, before the Lord returns, our respective churches will have ecumenical fellowship.

Prior to the calling of the Council of Trent, the Pope indicated his wish to call a council meeting at the city of Mantua to resolve the divide between the Lutheran and Catholic parties. Unfortunately, this never manifested. The Lutherans drafted what have come to be known as the Smalcald Articles. Discussed therein was the disagreements that the Lutherans had with medieval Catholic teaching. So I’d like to use that as a basis, with the words of the Articles in bold.

Issue 1: Justification

**The first and chief article is this:

1 Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 4:24–25).

2 He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid upon Him the iniquities of us all (Isaiah 53:6).

3 All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works or merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23–25).

4 This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law, or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us. As St. Paul says:

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (Romans 3:28)

That He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. [Romans 3:26]

5 Nothing of this article can be yielded or surrendered, even though heaven and earth and everything else falls [Mark 13:31].

For there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

And with His stripes we are healed. (Isaiah 53:5)
**

Luther’s constant theme is one echoed throughout the Lutheran Confessions, note for instance:

• It is necessary for the chief article of the Gospel to be preserved, namely that we obtain grace freely by faith in Christ, and not by certain observances or acts of worship devised by people.* (AC XXVIII.52; Concordia, p. 61).

Melanchthon hammers the point home in the Apology [Defense] of the Augsburg Confession:

• In this controversy, the chief topic of Christian doctrine is treated. When it is understood correctly, it illumines and amplifies Christ’s honor ‹which is especially useful for the clear, correct understanding of the entire Holy Scriptures, and alone shows the way to the unspeakable treasure and right knowledge of Christ, and alone opens the door to the entire Bible›. It brings necessary and most abundant consolation to devout consciences. Therefore, we ask His Imperial Majesty to hear us with patience in matters of such importance. For the adversaries do not understand what the forgiveness of sins or faith or grace or righteousness is. Therefore, they sadly corrupt this topic, hide Christ’s glory and benefits, and rob devout consciences of the consolation offered in Christ.* (Ap IV.2-3; Concordia, p. 82).

And again:

• It [the article on repentance] contains the chief topic of the Gospel, the true knowledge of Christ, and the true worship of God.* (Ap. XII.2; Concordia, p. 158).

*This is the chief article that we are debating with our adversaries and the knowledge we regard is necessary to all Christians.* (Ap. XII.58; Concordia, p. 165).

And:

*Among the people, whoever understood the doctrine of repentance as presented by the adversaries? Yet this is the chief topic of Christian doctrine.* (Ap. XXIV.25; Concordia, p. 228).

It is only the Biblical Gospel that is Gospel—at all. Gospel, of course, meaning in the Greek, literally, “a message of good news.” There any number of other religious philosophies and opinions that proclaim “good news” but the actual “good news” of Jesus Christ is what makes Christianity, Christianity, and it is what makes Lutheranism, Lutheranism.

It is a hard, but necessary, word to speak to fellow Christians when we declare that other confessions of the Gospel distract from, and obscure, the glory and merit of Christ, but they do and that is why we continue, to this day, and until the return of Christ, to hold high the banner of the Gospel, as it is so beautifully, clearly and powerfully confessed in the Book of Concord.

Why? Because we know that it is only the truth and power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that comforts sinners. We are not interested in any other message. We preach Christ and Him crucified and risen because it is only Christ and the preaching of Christ that rescues people from the misery of their sin and an eternity of separation from God in hell. We know that it is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ that gives life meaning. It is the Gospel, alone, that gives us the peace that passes all understanding, and joy, even in the midst of sorrow and hardship. The Gospel not only gives, it is. The Gospel is love, hope, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self-control. The Holy Spirit gives these gifts as the gifts of the Gospel. The Gospel is what gives life meaning.

Only the good news is the power of God that saves. Therefore, we stand fast and proclaim this alone-saving truth: the Gospel of Christ, the chief article of the Christian faith.

With that, maybe our fellow Roman Catholic posters can interject their opinions for discussion, as well, in contrast, what Rome teaches regarding this (most important) matter.

 

[JonNC]

Matthew,
Even though our two synods have not signed on to the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, and even though it does not completely end the controversy, I am including a link to it as evidence of the possibilities of ending our division with Rome, with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit, leading us to reconciliation.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

1. The Doctrine of Justification as Ecumenical Problem

13.Opposing interpretations and applications of the biblical message of justification were in the sixteenth century a principal cause of the division of the Western church and led as well to doctrinal condemnations. A common understanding of justification is therefore fundamental and indispensable to overcoming that division. By appropriating insights of recent biblical studies and drawing on modern investigations of the history of theology and dogma, the post-Vatican II ecumenical dialogue has led to a notable convergence concerning justification, with the result that this Joint Declaration is able to formulate a consensus on basic truths concerning the doctrine of justification. In light of this consensus, the corresponding doctrinal condemnations of the sixteenth century do not apply to today’s partner.

1. The Common Understanding of Justification

14.The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church have together listened to the good news proclaimed in Holy Scripture. This common listening, together with the theological conversations of recent years, has led to a shared understanding of justification. This encompasses a consensus in the basic truths; the differing explications in particular statements are compatible with it.

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

Jon

 

[Rascalking]

Are you guys from the Missuroi Synod?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Since ProdigalSon1 posted a thread on the topic of unification of churches, I thought that I would begin a series specifically focusing on the disagreements that exist between Roman Catholics and Lutherans. The nature of the disagreements is not the same as exists between Rome and other Protestant communions. Therefore, I thought it may be helpful for greater dialogue between us and our separated Roman (and Eastern, for that matter) brethren to maybe have a little back and forth on those disagreements. Of course, we pray that someday, before the Lord returns, our respective churches will have ecumenical fellowship.

Prior to the calling of the Council of Trent, the Pope indicated his wish to call a council meeting at the city of Mantua to resolve the divide between the Lutheran and Catholic parties. Unfortunately, this never manifested. The Lutherans drafted what have come to be known as the Smalcald Articles. Discussed therein was the disagreements that the Lutherans had with medieval Catholic teaching. So I’d like to use that as a basis, with the words of the Articles in bold.

don think the Luthern conffessions were what Mark was speacking of there.
[/quote]
[/QUOTE]

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Luther’s constant theme is one echoed throughout the Lutheran Confessions, note for instance:

• It is necessary for the chief article of the Gospel to be preserved, namely that we obtain grace freely by faith in Christ, and not by certain observances or acts of worship devised by people.* (AC XXVIII.52; Concordia, p. 61).

Melanchthon hammers the point home in the Apology [Defense] of the Augsburg Confession:

• In this controversy, the chief topic of Christian doctrine is treated. When it is understood correctly, it illumines and amplifies Christ’s honor ‹which is especially useful for the clear, correct understanding of the entire Holy Scriptures, and alone shows the way to the unspeakable treasure and right knowledge of Christ, and alone opens the door to the entire Bible›. It brings necessary and most abundant consolation to devout consciences. Therefore, we ask His Imperial Majesty to hear us with patience in matters of such importance. For the adversaries do not understand what the forgiveness of sins or faith or grace or righteousness is. Therefore, they sadly corrupt this topic, hide Christ’s glory and benefits, and rob devout consciences of the consolation offered in Christ.* (Ap IV.2-3; Concordia, p. 82).

And again:

• It [the article on repentance] contains the chief topic of the Gospel, the true knowledge of Christ, and the true worship of God.* (Ap. XII.2; Concordia, p. 158).

*This is the chief article that we are debating with our adversaries and the knowledge we regard is necessary to all Christians.* (Ap. XII.58; Concordia, p. 165).

And:

*Among the people, whoever understood the doctrine of repentance as presented by the adversaries? Yet this is the chief topic of Christian doctrine.* (Ap. XXIV.25; Concordia, p. 228).

It is only the Biblical Gospel that is Gospel—at all. Gospel, of course, meaning in the Greek, literally, “a message of good news.” There any number of other religious philosophies and opinions that proclaim “good news” but the actual “good news” of Jesus Christ is what makes Christianity, Christianity, and it is what makes Lutheranism, Lutheranism.

It is a hard, but necessary, word to speak to fellow Christians when we declare that other confessions of the Gospel distract from, and obscure, the glory and merit of Christ, but they do and that is why we continue, to this day, and until the return of Christ, to hold high the banner of the Gospel, as it is so beautifully, clearly and powerfully confessed in the Book of Concord.

Why? Because we know that it is only the truth and power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that comforts sinners. We are not interested in any other message. We preach Christ and Him crucified and risen because it is only Christ and the preaching of Christ that rescues people from the misery of their sin and an eternity of separation from God in hell. We know that it is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ that gives life meaning. It is the Gospel, alone, that gives us the peace that passes all understanding, and joy, even in the midst of sorrow and hardship. The Gospel not only gives, it is. The Gospel is love, hope, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self-control. The Holy Spirit gives these gifts as the gifts of the Gospel. The Gospel is what gives life meaning.

Only the good news is the power of God that saves. Therefore, we stand fast and proclaim this alone-saving truth: the Gospel of Christ, the chief article of the Christian faith.

With that, maybe our fellow Roman Catholic posters can interject their opinions for discussion, as well, in contrast, what Rome teaches regarding this (most important) matter.

I don not pretend to speak for the Church. I speak only for myself as a Catholic. I can see merit in some of what Luther said and wrote. There were abuses within the Church in his day that should not have been there. That said I am of the opion that either Luther or those that champaigned his name ( German Princes ) or Both went to far. Maybe they were pushed, but the If one step back and looks at the Time period The Reformation became more about political power that Religous reform.
There is to much the Lutherans and for that matter Angelicans share with the Catholic Faith to be other wise. That puts us some 500 years later tring to sort it out What was changed for the wrong reasons.

If I am going to break away form something I have to show that I have the Authority to do.
Bible alone. do not need the Church
Faith alone. need to do nothing but believe.
Ignore that fact that non of the writters of the New Testement knew that what they were writting would one day be scripture.
Ignore the passage in scripture that states Faith alone is dead.

I do not mean to come across as bashing the Lutheran tradition. I have many relatives that are Lutheran and I consider JonNC a good friend here on the Forums. Those are what I see as the biggest blocks to reunion. I guess I would have to disagress with any alone. For a we all profess a Triune God. If God is not alone why would means of salvation stand alone?

 

[Rascalking]

oneGODoneCHURCH:
I

I do not mean to come across as bashing the Lutheran tradition. I have many relatives that are Lutheran and I consider JonNC a good friend here on the Forums. ?

I’m really, really glad you said this. I love to read debates between two people who have genuine disagreements are but none the less good friends.

Keep playing nice!

 

[rskempf]

These posts seem complex. “Keep it simple”, I was always told.

Catholics have maintained allegiance to an authority, established by Jesus Christ, as the Bishop of Rome, office of Peter, the leader of our Church.

Luther, and his followers, have rejected this authority on earth, maybe for understandable reasons, but it was a mistake.

For unity, let us all see the logic, and mistakes, on both sides, and come together.

Whatever you believe, you must hold there is only one God. Our God is looking down upon us, hopeful, we will just love each other.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Matthew,
Even though our two synods have not signed on to the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, and even though it does not completely end the controversy, I am including a link to it as evidence of the possibilities of ending our division with Rome, with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit, leading us to reconciliation.

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

Thanks for posting these, Jon, as always. I think the problem here, with the JDDJ is several fold; Most importantly, Rome does not agree with the statement. We have to go by what the respective communions teach. AFAIK, the Tridentine canons are still the official Roman Catholic position.

Secondly, the Lutheran World Federation, as you know, does not adhere to the Lutheran Confessions. Anything they say about justification is, therefore, circumspect and not a little disingenuous.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Are you guys from the Missuroi Synod?

Jon is Missouri Synod. I was born and raised Missouri Synod, but have since joined a Wisconsin Synod congregation.

 

[Newbie2]

Another point for discussion:

Luther’s denial of man’s free will.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Can not agree with this. For unless you put that faith to use it serves on purpose. James 2 vs 20 to 22

 

[TriuneUnity]

To narrow it down, being as the Smalcald Articles on this point is fairly short… here is a more specific statement:

1. We believe that God has justified all sinners, that is, he has declared them righteous for the sake of Christ. This is the central message of Scripture upon which the very existence of the church depends. It is a message relevant to people of all times and places, of all races and social levels, for “the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men” (Romans 5:18). All need forgiveness of sins before God, and Scripture proclaims that all have been justified, for “the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men” (Romans 5:18).
2. We believe that individuals receive this free gift of forgiveness not on the basis of their own works, but only through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9). Justifying faith is trust in Christ and his redemptive work. This faith justifies not because of any power it has in itself, but only because of the salvation prepared by God in Christ, which it embraces (Romans 3:28; 4:5). On the other hand, although Jesus died for all, Scripture says that “whoever does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16). Unbelievers forfeit the forgiveness won for them by Christ (John 8:24).
3. We believe that people cannot produce this justifying faith, or trust, in their own hearts, because “the man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him” (1 Corinthians 2:14). In fact, “the sinful mind is hostile to God” (Romans 8:7). It is the Holy Spirit who gives people faith to recognize that “Jesus is Lord” (1 Corinthians 12:3). The Holy Spirit works this faith by means of the gospel (Romans 10:17). We believe, therefore, that a person’s conversion is entirely the work of God’s grace. Rejection of the gospel is, however, entirely the unbeliever’s own fault (Matthew 23:37).
4. We believe that sinners are saved by grace alone. Grace is the undeserved love of God for sinners. This love led God to give sinners everything they need for their salvation. It is all a gift of God. People do nothing to earn any of it (Ephesians 2:8,9).
5. We believe that already before the world was created, God chose those individuals whom he would in time convert through the gospel of Christ and preserve in faith to eternal life (Ephesians 1:4-6; Romans 8:29,30). This election to faith and salvation in no way was caused by anything in people but shows how completely salvation is by grace alone (Romans 11:5,6)
6. We believe that at the moment of death, the souls of those who believe in Christ go immediately to be with the Lord in the joy of heaven because of the atoning work of Christ (Luke 23:43). The souls of those who do not believe in Christ go to an eternity of misery in hell (Luke 16:22-24).
7. We reject every teaching that people in any way contribute to their salvation. We reject the belief that people with their own power can cooperate in their conversion or make a decision for Christ (John 15:16). We reject the belief that those who are converted were less resistant to God’s grace than those who remain unconverted. We reject all efforts to present faith as a condition people must fulfill to complete their justification. We reject all attempts of sinners to justify themselves before God.
8. We reject any suggestion that the doctrine of justification by faith is no longer meaningful today.
9. We reject the teaching that believers can never fall from faith (“once saved, always saved”), because the Bible says it is possible for believers to fall from faith (1 Corinthians 10:12).
10. We reject the false and blasphemous conclusion that those who are lost were predestined, or elected, by God to damnation, for God wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9).
11. We reject universalism, the belief that all people are saved, even those without faith in Christ (John 3:36). We reject pluralism, the belief that there are other ways to salvation besides faith in Christ (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). We reject any teaching that says it does not matter what one believes so long as one has faith in God.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

oneGODoneCHURCH;6498095:

I would refer you here to Augustine’s comments on this topic. He says it much better than I.

“Not so our father Abraham. This passage of scripture is meant to draw our attention to the difference. We confess that the holy patriarch was pleasing to God; this is what our faith affirms about him. So true is it that we can declare and be certain that he did have grounds for pride before God, and this is what the apostle tells us. It is quite certain, he says, and we know it for sure, that Abraham has grounds for pride before God. But if he had been justified by works, he would have had grounds for pride, but not before God. However, since we know he does have grounds for pride before God, it follows that he was not justified on the basis of works. So if Abraham was not justified by works, how was he justified?” The apostle goes on to tell us how: What does scripture say? (that is, about how Abraham was justified). Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (Rom. 4:3; Gen. 15:6). Abraham, then, was justified by faith. Paul and James do not contradict each other: good works follow justification
Now when you hear this statement, that justification comes not from works, but by faith, remember the abyss of which I spoke earlier. You see that Abraham was justified not by what he did, but by his faith: all right then, so I can do whatever I like, because even though I have no good works to show, but simply believe in God, that is reckoned to me as righteousness? Anyone who has said this and has decided on it as a policy has already fallen in and sunk; anyone who is still considering it and hesitating is in mortal danger. But God’s scripture, truly understood, not only safeguards an endangered person, but even hauls up a drowned one from the deep. My advice is, on the face of it, a contradiction of what the apostle says; what I have to say about Abraham is what we find in the letter of another apostle, who set out to correct people who had misunderstood Paul. James in his letter opposed those who would not act rightly but relied on faith alone; and so he reminded them of the good works of this same Abraham whose faith was commended by Paul. The two apostles are not contradicting each other. James dwells on an action performed by Abraham that we all know about: he offered his son to God as a sacrifice. That is a great work, but it proceeded from faith. I have nothing but praise for the superstructure of action, but I see the foundation of faith; I admire the good work as a fruit, but I recognize that it springs from the root of faith. If Abraham had done it without right faith it would have profited him nothing, however noble the work was. On the other hand, if Abraham had been so complacent in his faith that, on hearing God’s command to offer his son as a sacrificial victim, he had said to himself, “No, I won’t. But I believe that God will set me free, even if I ignore his orders,” his faith would have been a dead faith because it did not issue in right action, and it would have remained a barren, dried-up root that never produced fruit.” John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., WSA, Part 3, Vol. 15, trans. Maria Boulding, O.S.B., Expositions of the Psalms 1-32, Exposition 2 of Psalm 31, 2-4 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 2000), pp. 364-365.

Good Morning, Maybe I am reading this through the Catholic lens But I see ST Augustine saying, much better than I, That one must have Faith and put that faith inot action (works).

The 2 can not be seperated. Works without faith are empty and vain. FAith without works is dead. Maube I am reding bad Translations , But I do not recall seeing ST Paul say by Faith Alone. He say By Faith Then word Alone Is never with it except in the Letter of ST James. To have a LIving Faith of salvation, From that faith will proceed The works

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

To narrow it down, being as the Smalcald Articles on this point is fairly short… here is a more specific statement:

1. We believe that God has justified all sinners, that is, he has declared them righteous for the sake of Christ. This is the central message of Scripture upon which the very existence of the church depends. It is a message relevant to people of all times and places, of all races and social levels, for “the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men” (Romans 5:18). All need forgiveness of sins before God, and Scripture proclaims that all have been justified, for “the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men” (Romans 5:18).

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I left the Las Vegas Synod for the Fresno Synod.

Jon is Missouri Synod. I was born and raised Missouri Synod, but have since joined a Wisconsin Synod congregation.

 

[kepha1]

After a cursory view of the full text of The Smalcald Articles, I fail to understand how such a malicious document can be instrumental to an ecumenical discussion. I think the sanitized version as it is presented in this thread is dishonest. Perhaps it would be more productive to focus on the Joint Declaration on Justification where the fires of the Protestant Revolt have dwindled to a managable level.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I left the Las Vegas Synod for the Fresno Synod.

Ew. Who in the world would go to ANYTHING in Fresno? LOL

 

[TriuneUnity]

After a cursory view of the full text of The Smalcald Articles, I fail to understand how such a malicious document can be instrumental to an ecumenical discussion. I think the sanitized version as it is presented in this thread is dishonest. Perhaps it would be more productive to focus on the Joint Declaration on Justification where the fires of the Protestant Revolt have dwindled to a managable level.

No more malicious than what is said about Protestants on CAF on an hourly basis. However, the reason it was chosen is because it accurately summarizes the content of our faith, whereas the Joint Declaration does not.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hey dude, I live 60 miles south of Fresburgh…a loyal stronghold for Giants fans. Be nice! Go Giants 3-0

Ew. Who in the world would go to ANYTHING in Fresno? LOL

 

[JonNC]

After a cursory view of the full text of The Smalcald Articles, I fail to understand how such a malicious document can be instrumental to an ecumenical discussion. I think the sanitized version as it is presented in this thread is dishonest. Perhaps it would be more productive to focus on the Joint Declaration on Justification where the fires of the Protestant Revolt have dwindled to a managable level.

Malicious writings of the Reformation era clearly went both ways, and unfortunately have continued for nearly 500 years. The sanitized thread, as you put it, was not dishonest. I would think it was the OP’s intent to use those parts of Smalkald that could be discussed in charity by Catholics and Lutherans without the polemics interfering, just like it is easier to discuss with charity Luther without using the polemics of writers like Father O’Hare.

Jon