Lutherans - Roman Catholics/Points for Discussion

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Malicious writings of the Reformation era clearly went both ways, and unfortunately have continued for nearly 500 years. The sanitized thread, as you put it, was not dishonest. I would think it was the OP’s intent to use those parts of Smalkald that could be discussed in charity by Catholics and Lutherans without the polemics interfering, just like it is easier to discuss with charity Luther without using the polemics of writers like Father O’Hare.

Jon

Hi Jon, I total agree. It does no good to go into name calling and mud slinging. I do pray that as I comment on these threds that I remember that and if I don’t I hope that you or some else can kindly remind me to always discuss these topics with are Christian brethern in the charity of Christ.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Malicious writings of the Reformation era clearly went both ways, and unfortunately have continued for nearly 500 years. The sanitized thread, as you put it, was not dishonest. I would think it was the OP’s intent to use those parts of Smalkald that could be discussed in charity by Catholics and Lutherans without the polemics interfering, just like it is easier to discuss with charity Luther without using the polemics of writers like Father O’Hare.

Jon

Ditto. Aside from the fact that posting the polemical statements could be construed by moderation as being against forum regulations.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Since ProdigalSon1 posted a thread on the topic of unification of churches, I thought that I would begin a series specifically focusing on the disagreements that exist between Roman Catholics and Lutherans

.

The nature of the disagreements is not the same as exists between Rome and other Protestant communions. Therefore, I thought it may be helpful for greater dialogue between us and our separated Roman (and Eastern, for that matter) brethren to maybe have a little back and forth on those disagreements. Of course, we pray that someday, before the Lord returns, our respective churches will have ecumenical fellowship.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Melanchthon hammers the point home in the Apology [Defense] of the Augsburg Confession:

• In this controversy, the chief topic of Christian doctrine is treated. When it is understood correctly, it illumines and amplifies Christ’s honor ‹which is especially useful for the clear, correct understanding of the entire Holy Scriptures, and alone shows the way to the unspeakable treasure and right knowledge of Christ, and alone opens the door to the entire Bible›. It brings necessary and most abundant consolation to devout consciences. Therefore, we ask His Imperial Majesty to hear us with patience in matters of such importance. For the adversaries do not understand what the forgiveness of sins or faith or grace or righteousness is. Therefore, they sadly corrupt this topic, hide Christ’s glory and benefits, and rob devout consciences of the consolation offered in Christ.* (Ap IV.2-3; Concordia, p. 82).

And again:

• It [the article on repentance] contains the chief topic of the Gospel, the true knowledge of Christ, and the true worship of God.* (Ap. XII.2; Concordia, p. 158).

*This is the chief article that we are debating with our adversaries and the knowledge we regard is necessary to all Christians.* (Ap. XII.58; Concordia, p. 165).

And:

*Among the people, whoever understood the doctrine of repentance as presented by the adversaries? Yet this is the chief topic of Christian doctrine.* (Ap. XXIV.25; Concordia, p. 228).

It is only the Biblical Gospel that is Gospel—at all. Gospel, of course, meaning in the Greek, literally, “a message of good news.” There any number of other religious philosophies and opinions that proclaim “good news” but the actual “good news” of Jesus Christ is what makes Christianity, Christianity, and it is what makes Lutheranism, Lutheranism.

It is a hard, but necessary, word to speak to fellow Christians when we declare that other confessions of the Gospel distract from, and obscure, the glory and merit of Christ, but they do and that is why we continue, to this day, and until the return of Christ, to hold high the banner of the Gospel, as it is so beautifully, clearly and powerfully confessed in the Book of Concord.

Why? Because we know that it is only the truth and power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that comforts sinners. We are not interested in any other message. We preach Christ and Him crucified and risen because it is only Christ and the preaching of Christ that rescues people from the misery of their sin and an eternity of separation from God in hell. We know that it is only the Gospel of Jesus Christ that gives life meaning. It is the Gospel, alone, that gives us the peace that passes all understanding, and joy, even in the midst of sorrow and hardship. The Gospel not only gives, it is. The Gospel is love, hope, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self-control. The Holy Spirit gives these gifts as the gifts of the Gospel. The Gospel is what gives life meaning.

Only the good news is the power of God that saves. Therefore, we stand fast and proclaim this alone-saving truth: the Gospel of Christ, the chief article of the Christian faith.

With that, maybe our fellow Roman Catholic posters can interject their opinions for discussion, as well, in contrast, what Rome teaches regarding this (most important) matter.

To alone or islate the Gospel and neglect the revealed Word of God both written and come in the flesh, does not justify isolating the Gospel from the revealed Word of God which includes the Law and the prophets which are fulfilled in the Gospels. The above document makes good for a singular sermon, but it does not consume the whole of the matter in regards to the mystical Christian faith, it falls short very gravely.

As far as confession and the sacraments are concerned Jesus made the Apostles stewards of these mysteries (1Corinthians 4:1 Thus should one regard us; as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God) to adminster these works placed upon the Church to baptise, forgive sins, break bread (Eucharist), feed the poor, visit the prison, heal the sick, love our neighbor as our self, and love our enemy. To which of these works do Lutherans object too? apart from faith?

 

[JonNC]

=Gabriel of 12;6503471]

To alone or islate the Gospel and neglect the revealed Word of God both written and come in the flesh, does not justify isolating the Gospel from the revealed Word of God which includes the Law and the prophets which are fulfilled in the Gospels. The above document makes good for a singular sermon, but it does not consume the whole of the matter in regards to the mystical Christian faith, it falls short very gravely.

As far as confession and the sacraments are concerned Jesus made the Apostles stewards of these mysteries (1Corinthians 4:1 Thus should one regard us; as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God) to adminster these works placed upon the Church to baptise, forgive sins, break bread (Eucharist), feed the poor, visit the prison, heal the sick, love our neighbor as our self, and love our enemy. To which of these works do Lutherans object too? apart from faith?

Gabriel,
Why would you construe anything said here to mean that Lutherans would object to any of these?

Jon

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel,

Why would you construe anything said here to mean that Lutherans would object to any of these?

Blessings Jon; I have given a Catholic perspective to these viewed documents, granted from a 21st century view, never the less, I did not intend to offend Lutherans but to draw bolded lines so as to try and overcome them, from a Lutherans response.

I am impressed from these amazing documents from a historical standpoint, perplexed because I don’t know whether to address them in their historical mindset, or our own mindset from today?

I sense this is our meeting tent, layed out by Lutherans, as we stand facing each other, let us speak of our differences, which the Lutherans have proudly posted her documents. I come in peace to view what may be my misunderstanding or my firm ground, that is up to my Lutheran brothers to speak otherwise.

Forgive me if I have not followed the OP’s instruction. Can you please make it clear then, what is it, that you ask of Catholics whilest under this meeting tent? aaahhhh, I know what I forgot? I forgot to pray… sorry. Wouldn’t that be wonderful to be joined under one tent praying the rosary ?

I was sort of looking foward to these discussions, now I feel I committed a foul:shrug: Can you forgive me, and give me another try at this???

 

[TriuneUnity]

I was sort of looking foward to these discussions, now I feel I committed a foul:shrug: Can you forgive me, and give me another try at this???

You didn’t, Gabriel. Don’t feel as if you did. I believe Jon’s point was that we don’t object to the works you mentioned (well, aside from forgiveness of sins and the sacraments, as these aren’t works per se), like feeding the hungry, etc. What we do object to is the notion that these things bring about a sinner’s justification. It is the Lutheran position that the only thing which justifies us is the work of Christ, both in His life and in His death. Faith alone does NOT justify us. That is a big confusion that exists among non-Protestants. Faith is the alone means of receiving what Christ did on the cross. God’s forgiveness is a promise, which can only be received by believing it.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But isn’t that the same as faith alone? If one has faith that Christ died for our sins and He is saviour, isn’t that the same as what you’re saying here? I’m confused by the last part of your paragraph. I say this not to challenge you or argue, but as a genuine question to understand what you’re saying.

You didn’t, Gabriel. Don’t feel as if you did. I believe Jon’s point was that we don’t object to the works you mentioned (well, aside from forgiveness of sins and the sacraments, as these aren’t works per se), like feeding the hungry, etc. What we do object to is the notion that these things bring about a sinner’s justification. It is the Lutheran position that the only thing which justifies us is the work of Christ, both in His life and in His death. ***Faith alone does NOT justify us. That is a big confusion that exists among non-Protestants. Faith is the alone means of receiving what Christ did on the cross. God’s forgiveness is a promise, which can only be received by believing it./***QUOTE]

 

[TriuneUnity]

But isn’t that the same as faith alone? If one has faith that Christ died for our sins and He is saviour, isn’t that the same as what you’re saying here? I’m confused by the last part of your paragraph. I say this not to challenge you or argue, but as a genuine question to understand what you’re saying.

That’s okay, gurney. What I am saying is that God does not look at our faith as the reason why we are justified. Otherwise, faith would be a good work that God is rewarding. Faith is simply how we receive what God has done for us in Christ. The “why” of justification is because Christ has lived perfectly on our behalf, and died on our behalf to take away our guilt. This is the basis for why we are justified. Faith is the instrument by which what Christ did is communicated to us. Another way of describing it would be… say that I am point C. Point A is Christ/justification. In order for point A to get to point C it must go through point B which is faith.

We are not justified by faith alone. We are justified by Christ alone, and faith is the alone instrument of justification.

 

[JonNC]

=Gabriel of 12;6507002]
I was sort of looking foward to these discussions, now I feel I committed a foul:shrug: Can you forgive me, and give me another try at this???

No, no, no, Gabriel! You haven’t, and I never meant my question that way. Please forgive my lack of clarity.

Blessings Jon; I have given a Catholic perspective to these viewed documents, granted from a 21st century view, never the less, I did not intend to offend Lutherans but to draw bolded lines so as to try and overcome them, from a Lutherans response.

I am impressed from these amazing documents from a historical standpoint, perplexed because I don’t know whether to address them in their historical mindset, or our own mindset from today?

I sense this is our meeting tent, layed out by Lutherans, as we stand facing each other, let us speak of our differences, which the Lutherans have proudly posted her documents. I come in peace to view what may be my misunderstanding or my firm ground, that is up to my Lutheran brothers to speak otherwise.

Forgive me if I have not followed the OP’s instruction. Can you please make it clear then, what is it, that you ask of Catholics whilest under this meeting tent? aaahhhh, I know what I forgot? I forgot to pray… sorry. Wouldn’t that be wonderful to be joined under one tent praying the rosary ?

It is a good thing that we can now stand and face each other, and knowing you, with charity and good wil, seeking the Holy Spirit’s guidance to overcome our differences.
The very simple point of my question was that none of the things you mentioned do we object to, but instead embrace as fully as you do. As Matthew said, we may simply have a different view as to why and how they are important. While we are justified by Grace alone through faith in Christ, there is more to the Christian that follows justification, and I think this is in many ways where we differ. Much of what you mentioned above we would consider part of our sanctification - the Lutheran approach that justification is Christ’s work which we receive (monergistic), and generally sactification is the way we grow and respond to His grace.
As my signature says in quoting Luther, “There is no justification without sanctification…”, etc.

Jon

EDIT: There is much in the Rosary that Lutherans and Catholics can pray together!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

You didn’t, Gabriel. Don’t feel as if you did. I believe Jon’s point was that we don’t object to the works you mentioned (well, aside from forgiveness of sins and the sacraments, as these aren’t works per se), like feeding the hungry, etc. What we do object to is the notion that these things bring about a sinner’s justification. It is the Lutheran position that the only thing which justifies us is the work of Christ, both in His life and in His death. Faith alone does NOT justify us. That is a big confusion that exists among non-Protestants. Faith is the alone means of receiving what Christ did on the cross. God’s forgiveness is a promise, which can only be received by believing it.

Greetings TriuneUnity All is well:thumbsup:

I would like to introduce a perspective on faith here; Maybe you and others here can help me understand a Lutherans position to the following;

The faith you are defining here; does it come from a person’s faith before coming to Jesus Christ? or are you defining a “FAITH” from those Apostles, Saints, Martyrs, witnesses, Popes and Laity who are already practicing their Christian faith?

I think in answer to this, will help me grasp at your theology of faith, and better to respond.

Secondly, God allows the rain (grace) to fall on both the wicked and the good.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Greetings TriuneUnity All is well:thumbsup:

I would like to introduce a perspective on faith here; Maybe you and others here can help me understand a Lutherans position to the following;

The faith you are defining here; does it come from a person’s faith before coming to Jesus Christ? or are you defining a “FAITH” from those Apostles, Saints, Martyrs, witnesses, Popes and Laity who are already practicing their Christian faith?

I think in answer to this, will help me grasp at your theology of faith, and better to respond.

Secondly, God allows the rain (grace) to fall on both the wicked and the good.

For the purposes of justification I am defining faith as a trust that the promises of God offered in the Gospel (life, forgiveness of sins, and salvation) is true and personal for the individual Christian. A clinging to Christ’s merits and substitutionary death as one’s only hope for righteousness before God.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The very simple point of my question was that none of the things you mentioned do we object to, but instead embrace as fully as you do. As Matthew said, we may simply have a different view as to why and how they are important. While we are justified by Grace alone through faith in Christ, there is more to the Christian that follows justification, and I think this is in many ways where we differ.

Do you mean to remove and replace what Jesus commanded Peter and the apostles (Apostolic successors) to administer the divine Sacraments instituted by Jesus Christ to his flock and the Church with “Faith alone”?

 

[JonNC]

For the purposes of justification I am defining faith as a trust that the promises of God offered in the Gospel (life, forgiveness of sins, and salvation) is true and personal for the individual Christian. A clinging to Christ’s merits and substitutionary death as one’s only hope for righteousness before God.

May I add that even this faith is a gift of Grace, as we have no power to come to it on our own.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Not sure I understand the question. If you mean that “faith alone” replaces the role of the Church, no. That’s not what I’m saying.

Jon

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

For the purposes of justification I am defining faith as a trust that the promises of God offered in the Gospel (life, forgiveness of sins, and salvation) is true and personal for the individual Christian. A clinging to Christ’s merits and substitutionary death as one’s only hope for righteousness before God.

]

We as Christians (Catholics) believe Jesus Christ paid for our sins. There is no other name in heaven or earth by which man can be saved; **Acts 4:12
3 There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved." **

Peter was speaking to the unbelievers from Acts in order to point them to Jesus Christ, Peter was not adminstering the work of baptism here to which one recieves his freely given inheritance, from which Jesus himself sanctifies, justifies himself in his sacrament.

Let us not forget that it is Jesus Christ himself who acts through his sacraments, not man. Jesus used spittle and dirt (mud) to heal a blind man. Jesus Works for our salvation has been finished". Now mercy and grace comes to us through the Holy Spirit (freely given), but one must drink the water to gain life, if one does not drink (work) how can one live without this divine water which gives eternal life.

If you dont’ believe in the magisterium and the Catholic Church? then believe in her works,(sacraments) because they come from God.

 

[TriuneUnity]

It is impossible for a person to receive the gift of faith apart from the ordinary workings of the Church, whether by means of word or sacrament.

 

[TriuneUnity]

]
Peter was speaking to the unbelievers from Acts in order to point them to Jesus Christ, Peter was not adminstering the work of baptism here to which one recieves his freely given inheritance, from which Jesus himself sanctifies, justifies himself in his sacrament.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

QUOTE=TriuneUnity;6509336]

So then how is faith alone able to save apart from the works of the Church which is the body of Jesus Christ and instrument (mud) by which one can be healed and saved?

 

[TriuneUnity]

QUOTE=TriuneUnity;6509336]