Lutherans - Roman Catholics/Points for Discussion

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Of course. We are Christians, not Faith-ians. My faith doesn’t save me. Christ saves me. My faith is what unites me to Christ, though, and how I receive His justification. He gives me a gift, and gives me the grace to accept it.
Are you saying that you are not a “Sola Fide” by saying your “not Faith-ians”?

If you say “My faith doesn’t save me”? then what is “Faith only” talking about from your documents?

I have to say TriuneUnity from your “Faith Only” Lutheran position is not what most protestants and non catholics adhere too in the “Faith Only” theology.

I don’t want to beat this Sola Fide thing to the ground, because I would like to move on to Justification and works along with other things yet to come.

Since you are able to discern faith, how are the mentally ill souls and infants saved and including accident victims who are left without speech, hearing, and motor skills? when we know that these cannot be saved on “Faith alone”, how do these recieve their Justification, sanctification, if they do not have faith to discern, nor in anyway able to recieve this grace and accept it as you do? For example as you stated here, “He gives me a gift, and gives me the grace to accept it”
 
Are you saying that you are not a “Sola Fide” by saying your “not Faith-ians”?

If you say “My faith doesn’t save me”? then what is “Faith only” talking about from your documents?

I have to say TriuneUnity from your “Faith Only” Lutheran position is not what most protestants and non catholics adhere too in the “Faith Only” theology.
The faith alone aspect of our theology addresses how we receive the forgiveness and righteousness won for us by Christ. We receive it by believing the promise of the gospel. We do not receive it by works or faith and works.
Since you are able to discern faith, how are the mentally ill souls and infants saved and including accident victims who are left without speech, hearing, and motor skills? when we know that these cannot be saved on “Faith alone”, how do these recieve their Justification, sanctification, if they do not have faith to discern, nor in anyway able to recieve this grace and accept it as you do? For example as you stated here, “He gives me a gift, and gives me the grace to accept it”
Faith is a supernatural gift. It is not an intellectual property. When an infant is baptized, they receive the gift of faith the same way an adult would.
 
QUOTE=TriuneUnity;6510042]The faith alone aspect of our theology addresses how we receive the forgiveness and righteousness won for us by Christ. We receive it by believing the promise of the gospel. We do not receive it by works or faith and works.
I respect your position. So no one can “receive forgiveness and righteousness won for us by Christ” unless one has faith alone to believe this? correct? Then this salvation of forgiveness and righteousness is for a select few who are able to have such a faith. Unless you can reveal to me, how one can attain this faith who does not have faith to "receive forgiveness and righteousness?
Faith is a supernatural gift. It is not an intellectual property. When an infant is baptized, they receive the gift of faith the same way an adult would.
]

So then if Baptism has just saved the infant, why does he need “faith only” in order to be saved?
 
I respect your position. So no one can “receive forgiveness and righteousness won for us by Christ” unless one has faith alone to believe this? correct? Then this salvation of forgiveness and righteousness is for a select few who are able to have such a faith. Unless you can reveal to me, how one can attain this faith who does not have faith to "receive forgiveness and righteousness?
By being born from above by the Spirit either through the preaching of the gospel to them, or through the sacrament of holy baptism.
So then if Baptism has just saved the infant, why does he need “faith only” in order to be saved?
Baptism does the same thing to the infant that Jesus did to the blind man. It regenerates the infant, and gives the infant faith.
 
By being born from above by the Spirit either through the preaching of the gospel to them, or through the sacrament of holy baptism.
Baptism does the same thing to the infant that Jesus did to the blind man. It regenerates the infant, and gives the infant faith.
So one does not have to have “Faith only” to be saved, one has to be baptized, or hear the gospel, to gain the faith in order to be saved?

Help me out here, your losing me, because now you have just attached “works” baptism, hearing the gospel to your “Faith alone” in order to be saved?

I would like to know when? and how does “Faith alone” save a blind, mute, hearing impaired person? Without attaching any baptism, or Gospel to your “Faith alone” documents?
 
So one does not have to have “Faith only” to be saved, one has to be baptized, or hear the gospel, to gain the faith in order to be saved?

Help me out here, your losing me, because now you have just attached “works” baptism, hearing the gospel to your “Faith alone” in order to be saved?
Sure. God’s works do save 🙂
 
Sure. God’s works do save 🙂

]

Here is an excerpt from the apology you provided for your Augsburg Confession;
"It is the Gospel, alone, that gives us the peace that passes all understanding, and joy, even in the midst of sorrow and hardship. The Gospel not only gives, it is. The Gospel is love, hope, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self-control. The Holy Spirit gives these gifts as the gifts of the Gospel. The Gospel is what gives life meaning.
 
This statement confers that the Gospel alone (good news) is the power of God that saves. Now you just claimed that God’s work saves.
Where is the difference? Is not the Gospel the work of God? The Gospel is the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. All of which is communicated to us through the word and the sacraments.
How does one find the work from God that saves, in the Gospel? Can Letters on a page save a man from eternal damnation? This subject matter does not discuss your “Faith alone” saves anymore but has moved to another subject matter of needing the Gospel, and a work from God. Which I find lacking from your “Faith alone” saves.
You will not find any statement that faith alone saves. What you will find is that faith alone is the means by which we receive the benefits of the Gospel.
 
I still say it sounds like the same thing, like Gabriel is saying, Matt. Faith alone is the means by which we receive the benefits of the Gospel means it’s the only way we are saved? If the only way I can be saved is through faith in the gospel then faith alone is saving me?

I feel like we’re all Abbott and Costello on Who’s on First? LOL!! 😛
You will not find any statement that faith alone saves. What you will find is that faith alone is the means by which we receive the benefits of the Gospel.
 
Greetings TriuneUnity:) All is well:thumbsup:

I would like to introduce a perspective on faith here; Maybe you and others here can help me understand a Lutherans position to the following;

The faith you are defining here; does it come from a person’s faith before coming to Jesus Christ? or are you defining a “FAITH” from those Apostles, Saints, Martyrs, witnesses, Popes and Laity who are already practicing their Christian faith?

I think in answer to this, will help me grasp at your theology of faith, and better to respond.

Secondly, God allows the rain (grace) to fall on both the wicked and the good.
Gab,
While we were being formed in our mothers womb, God knew us. Ps.139:13-16
Faith is a gift. Eph.2:8-9. We are saved by grace, not by works.

God bless,
buelake
 
Gab,
While we were being formed in our mothers womb, God knew us. Ps.139:13-16
Faith is a gift. Eph.2:8-9. We are saved by grace, not by works.
Who disagreed with grace? My question to Lutherans, don’t ask me which synod? is how this grace is adminstered and recieved by the person being saved by it? When Lutherans attach the word “only” or “alone” to grace, faith, Gospel, works of God, the word alone, or only need not be applied. Or is this symantics being expressed by the author to make a point by using alone or only by expressing his point not a Lutheran doctrine.

Peace be with you
 
Where is the difference? Is not the Gospel the work of God? The Gospel is the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. All of which is communicated to us through the word and the sacraments.

The difference here is that there is no “faith alone” what you described.
You will not find any statement that faith alone saves. What you will find is that faith alone is the means by which we receive the benefits of the Gospel.
Do we agree that the sacrament of Baptism regenerates and saves you now according to the scripture 1 Pet 3:20-21
God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. **This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. **

Who is it that can adminster a timely baptism to an infant who has no faith in order to be saved? What validates this administer to give this saving work of God apart from faith in the one saving his soul in baptism?
 
QUOTE=gurneyhalleck1;6511148]I still say it sounds like the same thing, like Gabriel is saying, Matt. Faith alone is the means by which we receive the benefits of the Gospel means it’s the only way we are saved? If the only way I can be saved is through faith in the gospel then faith alone is saving me?
I feel like we’re all Abbott and Costello on Who’s on First? LOL!! 😛
]

I feel for you:) please feel free to interject or comment at anytime. I believe if “alone” was to be dropped from faith we have full agreement. But this alone attached to faith is not supported by scripture, so how can the Gospel be supported by “faith alone”? If you say yes to “Faith alone” you are not following scripture “content”.

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. James 2:24-26

For me “Faith alone” removes the Holy Spirit who reveals all things to us. It also removes us from the presence of God, when we rely on “Faith alone” to make God present, when God does this without anyones faith alone or without faith. Example the Eucharist.
 
I still say it sounds like the same thing, like Gabriel is saying, Matt. Faith alone is the means by which we receive the benefits of the Gospel means it’s the only way we are saved? If the only way I can be saved is through faith in the gospel then faith alone is saving me?

I feel like we’re all Abbott and Costello on Who’s on First? LOL!! 😛
LOL…No, because they are two separate issues, gurney. It’s important to be specific here on these points.

1 - Man is justified because Christ has lived the Law perfectly in his place and suffered on the cross to bear the wrath due mankind for his transgressions of the Law. Therefore, the basis for our justification is the work of Christ alone. Man can do nothing to justify himself because he is a sinner.

2 - The way in which man is united to Christ’s life, death, and resurrection is through the means of faith alone. By believing the promises of the gospel, we are grafted into Christ and receive the justification that Christ won for us in His life, death, and resurrection. This is sola fide. Man is not grafted into Christ nor does he receive the benefit of justification through works of any kind.

3 - We do not receive faith in a vacuum. No one sits on their couch and has a sudden epiphany and believes in Jesus. Faith is received as a gift through means. Those means are the preaching of the word and the administration of the sacraments. This is not related to sola fide. It is a separate question.
 
Do we agree that the sacrament of Baptism regenerates and saves you now according to the scripture 1 Pet 3:20-21
God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water. **This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. **
Yes, we do agree.
Who is it that can adminster a timely baptism to an infant who has no faith in order to be saved? What validates this administer to give this saving work of God apart from faith in the one saving his soul in baptism?
Anyone can administer it. What makes baptism valid is its administration according to how Jesus instituted it. Baptizing in water in the name of the Triune God.
 
Hey Triune,

Great post. I find this talk always edifying and fascinating spiritually. What I’d like to know, and again this isn’t apologetics or me being an argumentative weenie here, is how we reconcile the idea that we are justified through faith alone with many of Jesus’s and Paul’s statements that sound as if we are judged and critiqued for some of our behavior and works? Statements like “many will come to me saying Lord, Lord,” and “it is easier to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven,” and a “good tree does not bear bad fruit,” etc. Paul talks about how no fornicator will enter the kingdom of heaven and Paul lays out in other places the sins that will keep us from eternal life. There are many many places where Jesus talks about certain sins keeping us from salvation. How do you reconcile these admonitions with the idea that we can persist in sin and yet our sins are “covered” and righteousness of God is imputed to us, giving us salvation? Thanks in advance for your answers…
LOL…No, because they are two separate issues, gurney. It’s important to be specific here on these points.

1 - Man is justified because Christ has lived the Law perfectly in his place and suffered on the cross to bear the wrath due mankind for his transgressions of the Law. Therefore, the basis for our justification is the work of Christ alone. Man can do nothing to justify himself because he is a sinner.

2 - The way in which man is united to Christ’s life, death, and resurrection is through the means of faith alone. By believing the promises of the gospel, we are grafted into Christ and receive the justification that Christ won for us in His life, death, and resurrection. This is sola fide. Man is not grafted into Christ nor does he receive the benefit of justification through works of any kind.

3 - We do not receive faith in a vacuum. No one sits on their couch and has a sudden epiphany and believes in Jesus. Faith is received as a gift through means. Those means are the preaching of the word and the administration of the sacraments. This is not related to sola fide. It is a separate question.
 
Hey Triune,

Great post. I find this talk always edifying and fascinating spiritually. What I’d like to know, and again this isn’t apologetics or me being an argumentative weenie here, is how we reconcile the idea that we are justified through faith alone with many of Jesus’s and Paul’s statements that sound as if we are judged and critiqued for some of our behavior and works? Statements like “many will come to me saying Lord, Lord,” and “it is easier to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven,” and a “good tree does not bear bad fruit,” etc.
It is true that our sins are covered by the righteousness of Christ, and we have been imputed with His “positive” righteousness (His adherence to the law). This cannot be undone by sin, because Christ has already suffered for our sins and paid their penalty. Therefore, our sin, in and of itself, does not condemn us.

The issue then, is falling away from faith. If we understand that faith unites us to the complete justification won for us by Christ, then one must continue in the faith in order to remain united to Christ. If faith is not present, then union with Christ is not present, and justification is not present.

There are two sets of Bible passages that speak of falling away. First, there are those which directly warn against such a thing happening to believers. One example is Galatians 5:4: 'You are separated from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by Law, you have fallen from grace." Paul had taught the true Gospel to the Galatians. They had joyfully received that Gospel and became Christians, not by appearance but in actuality. They were justified by faith, received the Holy Spirit, and miracles were performed in their midst (See Galatians 3:1-5). They were Christians in every sense of the word. But to these who had once been Christians Paul now says, “You have fallen from grace " and 'you are separated from Christ” if you attempt to be justified by the Law. What else can this mean but that they who had been true believers were in danger of falling away, of no longer being Christians. If falling away permanently is an impossibility then Paul’s words have no meaning and his very real concern is misplaced.

A second example is Luke 8:13. In this passage Jesus is explaining the meaning of the Parable of the Sower. Our Lord says, “But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.” Here Jesus says, unmistakably, that it is possible for someone to receive the Gospel, truly believe for a while, but then fall away, because of temptation. To those who try to say that such people were never really Christian, Jesus words disagree. He says in clear words, that they 'believe for a while " and then 'fall away ". One cannot fall away from something that one wasn’t truly a part of to begin with.

If, then, falling away is possible, what causes it according to Scripture? Technically speaking, only unbelief, that is, not believing in Jesus damns (cf. John 3:18, 36; Mark 16:16). However, the New Testament itself further nuances this. An analysis of the New Testament data reveals that both (1) rejecting the Gospel and (2) living in sin unrepentantly lead to falling away from the faith.

Rejecting the Gospel, in New Testament terms, can mean either (1a) putting one’s trust in persons or works of the Law in addition to Jesus Christ or (1b) a total repudiation of Jesus and the Christian faith, and (1c) rejecting an essential doctrine of the Gospel. An example of (1a) was the Galatian congregation already mentioned. They, who had been taught to trust only in Jesus for their salvation were beginning to trust in the works of the Law (i.e., circumcision) in addition to Jesus. Paul rightly pointed out that to do so meant to fall from grace. So also in our day, any Christian who begins to trust in their own performance or someone or something else in addition to Christ has fallen away.

(1b) above refers to the person who formally and consciously leaves the Christian faith. A Biblical example of this is probably those to whom the letter to the Hebrews was written. Many scholars believe that the epistle to the Hebrews was written as a stern warning to Hebrew Christians who were on the verge of returning to Judaism. Demas, “who having loved this present world” deserted Paul and returned to Thessalonica, is probably another example (2 Timothy 4:10). So is Judas Iscariot.

An example of (1c) is those who denied the resurrection, such as “Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some” (see also 1 Timothy 1:19-20). Some among the Corinthians were also rejecting the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:12-14).

(continued)
 
(continued)

An traditional example of living in sin unrepentantly (2) has been King David, who committed murder and adultery and thus fell away from the faith (Read 2 Samuel 11 and 12; Psalm 51). About this third cause Martin Luther once wrote:

“It is therefore necessary to know and to teach that when holy people, aside from the fact that they still possess and feel original sin and daily repent and strive against it, fall into open sin (as David fell into adultery, murder, and blasphemy), faith and the Spirit have departed from them. This is so because the Holy Spirit does not permit sin to rule and gain the upper hand in such a way that sin is committed, but the Holy Spirit represses and restrains it so that it does not do what it wishes. If sin does what it wishes, the Holy Spirit and faith are not present, for St. John says, ‘No one born of God commits sin’ (Smalcald Articles III.3.43-45).”

All Christians sin daily and will do so until death, as John himself says in I John 1:8. The sin that John speaks of in the quotation above (1 John 3:9) is the sin that is continued in without repentance. When such unrepentant sin occurs (whether it be adultery and murder or neglect of the Word and Sacrament, living together outside of marriage, etc.) faith eventually dies and Hebrews 10:26-27 applies.

Though it is true that rejecting the Gospel and living in sin impenitently cause one to fall away, these causes happen more easily within certain contexts. Such as? Such as persecution (Matthew 24:9-10; Luke 8:13), false doctrine (1 Timothy 4:1: “in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demon”), or neglect. (Hebrews 2:3:“how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?”). Christian history is littered with the sorry examples of Christians who fell away from their faith in the face of persecution, who fell tragically through false doctrine, and who fell unknowingly through neglect of the preached Word and Sacrament, worship, and the body of Christ. Persecution, false doctrine, and neglect don’t actually cause apostasy. But they create a climate in which falling away can easily happen.

I hope that helps. If not, there’s always booing the Dodgers LOL
 
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