Lutherans--why Lutheran and not Catholic?

[MichaelSC]

I’m not going to debate homosexuality here so I’ll keep this on topic…

Do Lutherans actually believe this?

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America allows local congregations to decide if they will bless same-sex couples and if they want to call pastors who are openly homosexual and/or in homosexual relationships.

 

[dronald]

The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America allows local congregations to decide if they will bless same-sex couples and if they want to call pastors who are openly homosexual and/or in homosexual relationships.

I feel like I should get JonNC’s opinion on this, or a second opinion in general.

I’m finding this hard to believe, Lol.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I feel like I should get JonNC’s opinion on this, or a second opinion in general.

I’m finding this hard to believe, Lol.

John NC I believe is Missouri Synod the conservative arm of Lutherans in the US they would disagree.

There is not even denominational unity when authority is thrown away.

 

[dronald]

John NC I believe is Missouri Synod the conservative arm of Lutherans in the US they would disagree.

There is not even denominational unity when authority is thrown away.

What is their process when determining matters of doctrine?

Even my Church says, “Our official view on homosexuality is [X]” Lutherans don’t have a statement on homosexuality?

I just find this mind boggling.

 

[MichaelSC]

Look at my Religion, I’m not Catholic.

But I have developed an interest in Apostolic Churches

Oops sorry I didn’t pay attention at first. We have had a lot of dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church especially in the last 50 years. A major fruit of that has been the 1999 Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification which was signed by the Lutheran World Federation and the Roman Catholic Church and later in 2006 the Methodist World Conference signed onto it as well. With that we declared that there are some parts about Justification that we agree with and others we still have to work; sorry I am not familiar with the finer points of the Declaration but I could look it up later.

There have been 11 rounds of official dialogue in those last 50 years with a document produced from each round on what we agree on, disagree on, and topics for future discussions. Some of these are really thick and make good bed time reading.

Many of us are hoping that we can be in full communion or at least like the Orthodox in relationship to the Roman Catholic Church by October 31, 2017; the 500th anniversary of the Reformation when Luther nailed the 95 Theses at Wittenburg.

 

[MichaelSC]

Excellent example on what happens when you trade the authority of the church for the authority of the individual.

Perversion of the Gospel.

Paul knew what he wrote. So did his audience. The early church made it completely clear how we should read these.

You read into the text to find a modern slant that does not exist.

There are of course many who would say that the Roman Catholic Church has perverted the Gospel as well. If you want we can talk about this on private message if you want.

 

[Jon_S_1]

There are of course many who would say that the Roman Catholic Church has perverted the Gospel as well. If you want we can talk about this on private message if you want.

Proof is in the pudding.

 

[Jon_S_1]

What is their process when determining matters of doctrine?

Even my Church says, “Our official view on homosexuality is [X]” Lutherans don’t have a statement on homosexuality?

I just find this mind boggling.

My understanding is the different synods (groups within Lutheranism) have their own authority independent of each other.

Similarly, your Evangelical church can disagree on a number of issues with other Evangelical churches, and yet they are all still evangelical. The comparison isn’t perfect since evangelical churches are generally “free” or more autonomous, but it’s similar.

 

[MichaelSC]

What is their process when determining matters of doctrine?

Even my Church says, “Our official view on homosexuality is [X]” Lutherans don’t have a statement on homosexuality?

I just find this mind boggling.

There are three broad denominations of Lutherans in the United States. The ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) is the “liberal” body of Lutheran although not every congregation would be classified “liberal.” The LCMS (Lutheran Church Missouri Synod) and WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) are the “conservative” Lutheran bodies though not every congregation is “conservative.”

 

[Per_Crucem]

So why don’t you just call yourselves, “Catholic” if you believe you’re the true Catholic Church with it’s own declarations.

Why name yourself after one man?

We don’t. That name was given to us during the Reformation. We were originally just the Evangelische Kirsche.

 

[MichaelSC]

We don’t. That name was given to us during the Reformation. We were originally just the Evangelische Kirsche.

That is what we are still called in Germany today.

 

[mls9q]

Hi everybody, OP here. Wow, so many responses! Thank you all!

To answer a few questions that have come up, yes, my husband was raised Lutheran, but is basically agnostic now. He very much wants our children (ages 6, 3, and 9 mos.) to be raised with a strong Christian faith, and thus has supported me in raising them thus far in the UMC (he comes to church with us, goes to Sunday School with me, encourages the kids to go to Sunday School and Vacation Bible School and Children’s Church, etc.). Over the past year, I have felt led to study the Roman Catholic Church in as much detail as possible–considering the fact that I am a busy and tired mom of three little ones!–and actually I have been in RCIA now for the past several weeks. My husband supports my faith journey and has no problem with me attending RCIA, but he is fairly adamant that he does not want our children raised Catholic. This is a big problem for me(I’ve posted recently about the issue on the Family Life forum), because if I do become Catholic, then I of course want to impart my faith to my children. My husband went to Catholic elementary school and had some negative experiences there–nothing too extreme, but I believe he sees the Catholic faith as a fear-based religion that will drive our children to feel either terrified of sin or desperate to rebel against all the “rules,” or both. He feels that Protestantism is just far more “positive,” and wants to keep raising them in a Protestant faith community. He’s very uncomfortable with even the idea of me taking them to mass, and has gotten more–not less-comfortable with the idea over time. He has no interest at all in going to RCIA with me–not going to happen.

I’m really struggling right now, because as I said, I am a busy and sleepy mom of little ones, and it’s hard to find the time right now to deeply explore all the tenets not only of Catholicism (which I’m doing in RCIA), but also Lutheranism, Anglican Catholicism, etc. Not to mention trying to pin down the theology of the UMC. I am desperate to make the right decision for my family, and I’m so afraid I’m going to fail. Please pray for me, and if you have any suggestions for where to go from here, I’d love to hear them!

 

[dronald]

We don’t. That name was given to us during the Reformation. We were originally just the Evangelische Kirsche.

I remember reading that once, so what happened? Every Lutheran website is “Lutheran” and every follower calls ones self that as well.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Hi everybody, OP here. Wow, so many responses! Thank you all!

To answer a few questions that have come up, yes, my husband was raised Lutheran, but is basically agnostic now. He very much wants our children (ages 6, 3, and 9 mos.) to be raised with a strong Christian faith, and thus has supported me in raising them thus far in the UMC (he comes to church with us, goes to Sunday School with me, encourages the kids to go to Sunday School and Vacation Bible School and Children’s Church, etc.). Over the past year, I have felt led to study the Roman Catholic Church in as much detail as possible–considering the fact that I am a busy and tired mom of three little ones!–and actually I have been in RCIA now for the past several weeks. My husband supports my faith journey and has no problem with me attending RCIA, but he is fairly adamant that he does not want our children raised Catholic. This is a big problem for me(I’ve posted recently about the issue on the Family Life forum), because if I do become Catholic, then I of course want to impart my faith to my children. My husband went to Catholic elementary school and had some negative experiences there–nothing too extreme, but I believe he sees the Catholic faith as a fear-based religion that will drive our children to feel either terrified of sin or desperate to rebel against all the “rules,” or both. He feels that Protestantism is just far more “positive,” and wants to keep raising them in a Protestant faith community. He’s very uncomfortable with even the idea of me taking them to mass, and has gotten more–not less-comfortable with the idea over time. He has no interest at all in going to RCIA with me–not going to happen.

I’m really struggling right now, because as I said, I am a busy and sleepy mom of little ones, and it’s hard to find the time right now to deeply explore all the tenets not only of Catholicism (which I’m doing in RCIA), but also Lutheranism, Anglican Catholicism, etc. Not to mention trying to pin down the theology of the UMC. I am desperate to make the right decision for my family, and I’m so afraid I’m going to fail. Please pray for me, and if you have any suggestions for where to go from here, I’d love to hear them!

You and your husband will have to talk a lot about this. Remember there is nothing barring your kids to go to Protestant church as well.

I would tell your husband that you guys each have a right to share your religion with the kids. If you become Catholic you will take the kids to Catholic mass, and he is welcome too. Likewise he can take them to a Protestant church and you will gladly accompany him, but put the onus on him a bit to maintain Protestantism with them if he wants.

Just remember not to ram it down his throat, but respectfully share your heart and your willingness to compromise in this way.

 

[MichaelSC]

I remember reading that once, so what happened? Every Lutheran website is “Lutheran” and every follower calls ones self that as well.

I prefer to call myself Christian and that is what Luther preferred as well. But if I did then people would want to know more about what I believe as a Christian. The word “evangelical” is still not sufficient to fully describe what I believe as a Christian. I could call myself a Christian of the Augsburg Confession and that is common I hear in the Lutheran churches in Africa but most people don’t know what the Augsburg Confession. In the United States we still use the word “Lutheran” to describe what we are as that is what people understand and that is how we title our churches.

 

[gcnuss]

So why don’t you just call yourselves, “Catholic” if you believe you’re the true Catholic Church with it’s own declarations.

Why name yourself after one man?

The appellation “Lutheran” was decreed by Pope Leo X in the encyclical Decet Romanum Pontificem." To quote the encyclical:

III. Our purpose is that such men should rightfully be ranked with Martin and other accursed heretics and excommunicates, and that even as they have ranged themselves with the obstinacy in sinning of the said Martin, they shall likewise share his punishments and his name, by bearing with them everywhere the title “Lutheran” and the punishments it incurs.

It seems that this action, meant as an insult, was turned around and became a badge of honor for those who followed Luther. Luther, himself, was not at all in favor of his name being used in this manner.

 

[ndismyhome]

Question for Lutherans; are you still trying to reform the Catholic Church? What was the original reformation about and in what way are you still working towards such a reform?

That depends on what sort of Lutheran you are. I will link an article by Leonard Klein that discusses this point to some extent. But, basicially, he identifies four groups of Lutherans (at least in terms of how they see themselves in relation to other Christians).

1. the “Waltherians” - The Lutheran Church is the one true Church on earth.
2. the generic Protestants - The Lutheran churches are one valid protestant group out of many.
3. the Neo-Confessionalists - all people who ascribe to justification by faith constitute the one, true church. Other doctrines are secondary (or at least less important)
4. the Evangelical Catholics - the Lutherans are a reformed group of Roman Catholics who happen to be in schism from their (Catholic) bishops (esp. the pope) and strive for Christian unity.

See the article for a more robust treatment of these categories:
ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/kleintwilight.pdf

 

[ndismyhome]

OP - I would recommend checking out local parishes to see what they are like. This won’t solve all your problems, but it is a place to start. Then, after dismissing a few, take the time to talk with the priest or pastor about any theological questions you have. Again, this won’t solve all the problems, but it is a starting place.

 

[ndismyhome]

What is their process when determining matters of doctrine?

Even my Church says, “Our official view on homosexuality is [X]” Lutherans don’t have a statement on homosexuality?

I just find this mind boggling.

I will speak about the ELCA, as it is what I know. I am not making a claim about other Lutheran synods. Anyways, the ELCA does have an official position on homosexual relationships etc. in that it allows a finite number of possible positions. It isn’t terribly clear at any rate and does leave much to be desired, but we do have something to say about it all.

Anyways, if you are a glutton for reading boring documents, you can read this:

elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements/JTF-Human-Sexuality.aspx#Table of Contents

 

[MaryT777]

Oops sorry I didn’t pay attention at first. We have had a lot of dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church especially in the last 50 years. A major fruit of that has been the 1999 Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification which was signed by the Lutheran World Federation and the Roman Catholic Church and later in 2006 the Methodist World Conference signed onto it as well. With that we declared that there are some parts about Justification that we agree with and others we still have to work; sorry I am not familiar with the finer points of the Declaration but I could look it up later.

There have been 11 rounds of official dialogue in those last 50 years with a document produced from each round on what we agree on, disagree on, and topics for future discussions. Some of these are really thick and make good bed time reading.

Many of us are hoping that we can be in full communion or at least like the Orthodox in relationship to the Roman Catholic Church by October 31, 2017; the 500th anniversary of the Reformation when Luther nailed the 95 Theses at Wittenburg.

Mary:
It was indeed good to sign the JDDJ with the LWF…great strides were made towards the understanding of justification between the two Churches.