Lutherans--why Lutheran and not Catholic?

[EvangelCatholic]

Oops sorry I didn’t pay attention at first. We have had a lot of dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church especially in the last 50 years. A major fruit of that has been the 1999 Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification which was signed by the Lutheran World Federation and the Roman Catholic Church and later in 2006 the Methodist World Conference signed onto it as well. With that we declared that there are some parts about Justification that we agree with and others we still have to work; sorry I am not familiar with the finer points of the Declaration but I could look it up later.

There have been 11 rounds of official dialogue in those last 50 years with a document produced from each round on what we agree on, disagree on, and topics for future discussions. Some of these are really thick and make good bed time reading.

Many of us are hoping that we can be in full communion or at least like the Orthodox in relationship to the Roman Catholic Church by October 31, 2017; the 500th anniversary of the Reformation when Luther nailed the 95 Theses at Wittenburg.

Welcome MichaelSC!

The progress made in the talks between Lutherans and Catholics is, indeed, quite encouraging. Lutheran bishops and ecumenical officials approached Pope Benedict several years ago about the possibility of eucharistic hospitality at the 500 year commemoration of the Reformation. Pope Francis will hopefully agree.

 

[MichaelSC]

Welcome MichaelSC!

The progress made in the talks between Lutherans and Catholics is, indeed, quite encouraging. Lutheran bishops and ecumenical officials approached Pope Benedict several years ago about the possibility of eucharistic hospitality at the 500 year commemoration of the Reformation. Pope Francis will hopefully agree.

I hope so as well.

 

[batman1973]

I am a Catholic, so, there’s no need to become Roman Catholic.

 

[MichaelSC]

I am a Catholic, so, there’s no need to become Roman Catholic.

Good point on realizing that we are all “Catholic” if we believe in Christ!

What we are hoping for though is unity with the Church at Rome (and also the Church at Constantinople as well).

 

[JonNC]

That depends on what sort of Lutheran you are. I will link an article by Leonard Klein that discusses this point to some extent. But, basicially, he identifies four groups of Lutherans (at least in terms of how they see themselves in relation to other Christians).

1. the “Waltherians” - The Lutheran Church is the one true Church on earth.
2. the generic Protestants - The Lutheran churches are one valid protestant group out of many.
3. the Neo-Confessionalists - all people who ascribe to justification by faith constitute the one, true church. Other doctrines are secondary (or at least less important)
4. the Evangelical Catholics - the Lutherans are a reformed group of Roman Catholics who happen to be in schism from their (Catholic) bishops (esp. the pope) and strive for Christian unity.

See the article for a more robust treatment of these categories:
ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/kleintwilight.pdf

I, obviously, tend toward position 4. That probably doesn’t surprise any veteran posters here.

Jon

 

[gcnuss]

I, obviously, tend toward position 4. That probably doesn’t surprise any veteran posters here.

The same goes for me.

 

[steido01]

That depends on what sort of Lutheran you are. I will link an article by Leonard Klein that discusses this point to some extent. But, basicially, he identifies four groups of Lutherans (at least in terms of how they see themselves in relation to other Christians).

1. the “Waltherians” - The Lutheran Church is the one true Church on earth.
2. the generic Protestants - The Lutheran churches are one valid protestant group out of many.
3. the Neo-Confessionalists - all people who ascribe to justification by faith constitute the one, true church. Other doctrines are secondary (or at least less important)
4. the Evangelical Catholics - the Lutherans are a reformed group of Roman Catholics who happen to be in schism from their (Catholic) bishops (esp. the pope) and strive for Christian unity.

See the article for a more robust treatment of these categories:
ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/kleintwilight.pdf

I suppose by this metric, which I’m not sure is an entirely fair assessment, I’d be a mix between a 4 and a 1 (“1” as in the one true Church is most clearly expressed in Lutheranism, and not necessarily ‘exclusive’ to in). I have a healthy distaste for 2 and the type of worship and thought that often accompany it…

 

[MichaelSC]

That depends on what sort of Lutheran you are. I will link an article by Leonard Klein that discusses this point to some extent. But, basicially, he identifies four groups of Lutherans (at least in terms of how they see themselves in relation to other Christians).

1. the “Waltherians” - The Lutheran Church is the one true Church on earth.
2. the generic Protestants - The Lutheran churches are one valid protestant group out of many.
3. the Neo-Confessionalists - all people who ascribe to justification by faith constitute the one, true church. Other doctrines are secondary (or at least less important)
4. the Evangelical Catholics - the Lutherans are a reformed group of Roman Catholics who happen to be in schism from their (Catholic) bishops (esp. the pope) and strive for Christian unity.

See the article for a more robust treatment of these categories:
ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/kleintwilight.pdf

I am pretty sure I fall under the 4th group here. However, I do believe Martin Luther said that Sola Fide is the one doctrine on which the Church stands or falls and its very important to me (and I am sure everybody else too )

 

[commenter]

That depends on what sort of Lutheran you are. I will link an article by Leonard Klein that discusses this point to some extent. But, basicially, he identifies four groups of Lutherans (at least in terms of how they see themselves in relation to other Christians).

1. the “Waltherians” - The Lutheran Church is the one true Church on earth.
2. the generic Protestants - The Lutheran churches are one valid protestant group out of many.
3. the Neo-Confessionalists - all people who ascribe to justification by faith constitute the one, true church. Other doctrines are secondary (or at least less important)
4. the Evangelical Catholics - the Lutherans are a reformed group of Roman Catholics who happen to be in schism from their (Catholic) bishops (esp. the pope) and strive for Christian unity.

See the article for a more robust treatment of these categories:
ctsfw.net/media/pdfs/kleintwilight.pdf

I did look up the article, as suggested. The article give an overview of the historical context, and a series of “what ifs”, or rather, how history may have been different if Catholic and Lutheran leaders and scholars might have reached agreement or responded in another way during or right after the Reformation. The issues raised go beyond Lutheranism but Christianity in general, not just then but now. The author was a Lutheran pastor. I encourage others to read the original article, and the subsequent ministry of that author.

 

[ndismyhome]

I did look up the article, as suggested. The article give an overview of the historical context, and a series of “what ifs”, or rather, how history may have been different if Catholic and Lutheran leaders and scholars might have reached agreement or responded in another way during or right after the Reformation. The issues raised go beyond Lutheranism but Christianity in general, not just then but now. The author was a Lutheran pastor. I encourage others to read the original article, and the subsequent ministry of that author.

Yes, Fr. Klein is now a Catholic priest, I believe for the diocese of Baltimore.

 

[ndismyhome]

I suppose by this metric, which I’m not sure is an entirely fair assessment, I’d be a mix between a 4 and a 1 (“1” as in the one true Church is most clearly expressed in Lutheranism, and not necessarily ‘exclusive’ to in). I have a healthy distaste for 2 and the type of worship and thought that often accompany it…

I do not think that Klein intended these categories to necessarily be mutually exclusive, but I think he was on to something in realizing that people often tend toward one or another of them.

 

[steido01]

I do not think that Klein intended these categories to necessarily be mutually exclusive, but I think he was on to something in realizing that people often tend toward one or another of them.

Ah, that makes more sense. In that limited light, it does fairly well summarize the various “camps” within Lutheranism in regards to reunion.

This particular article comes up every now and then, and always seems to contribute something new to the given discussion. I’m curious to know how it was received back in '99, and whether the reception carried any weight in Fr. Klein’s personal decision to swim the Tiber…

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Fr Leonard Klein was a seminarian at Christ/ Concordia Seminary in Exile where I attended. Immanuel Church [formerly LCMS] in Yorkville/ Manhattan was his parish. Klein is one among a small number of seminarians to eventually became Roman Catholic. Some consider these former Lutheran priests as forerunners.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Fr Leonard Klein was a seminarian at Christ/ Concordia Seminary in Exile where I attended. Immanuel Church [formerly LCMS] in Yorkville/ Manhattan was his parish. Klein is one among a small number of seminarians to eventually became Roman Catholic. Some consider these former Lutheran priests as forerunners.

I hope you are right about them being Forerunners.

I am not super familiar with Lutheran Theology, as I was Evangelical Free Denom. but, I read a book by Evangelical Protestant Mark Knoll, “Is the Reformation Over” It is not an easy read, but it had a lot on this issue of what was the purpose of the Reformation, and especially post Vatican 2 do we need to keep on “reforming”, or are we merely tied to our new traditions that have replaced the traditions we were fine with at the start of the reformation.

Basically asking in a nutshell, if Calvin, Luther and Zuigli sat down with one of our last few Popes, would they even feel the need to separate from the church?

I think that is an important question to keep in mind. Over 500 years our differences have grown so much based on new traditions and religious identities, but if the Lutheran Church of 1550 for example and Catholic Church of today discussed their issues, would there even be any issues???

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Jon S;I hope you are right about them being Forerunners.

I am not super familiar with Lutheran Theology, as I was Evangelical Free Denom. but, I read a book by Evangelical Protestant Mark Knoll, “Is the Reformation Over” It is not an easy read, but it had a lot on this issue of what was the purpose of the Reformation, and especially post Vatican 2 do we need to keep on “reforming”, or are we merely tied to our new traditions that have replaced the traditions we were fine with at the start of the reformation.

Basically asking in a nutshell, if Calvin, Luther and Zuigli sat down with one of our last few Popes, would they even feel the need to separate from the church?

I** think that is an important question to keep in mind. Over 500 years our differences have grown so much based on new traditions and religious identities, but if the Lutheran Church of 1550 for example and Catholic Church of today discussed their issues, would there even be any issues???**

I think many Lutherans would agree that there is no longer justification for being separate from Catholics in today’s Church. It comes down to tradition. I love my Catholic heritage as a Lutheran. But also feel quite at home in family gatherings [baptisms/ weddings, funerals] among Catholics and take holy Communion.

 

[mls9q]

I think many Lutherans would agree that there is no longer justification for being separate from Catholics in today’s Church. It comes down to tradition. I love my Catholic heritage as a Lutheran. But also feel quite at home in family gatherings [baptisms/ weddings, funerals] among Catholics and take holy Communion.

Sorry for my ignorance–does that mean that Lutherans may take communion at Roman Catholic Churches?? I didn’t know that…

 

[concretecamper]

Sorry for my ignorance–does that mean that Lutherans may take communion at Roman Catholic Churches?? I didn’t know that…

Anyone can do anything however it does not make it right.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I hope you are right about them being Forerunners.

I am not super familiar with Lutheran Theology, as I was Evangelical Free Denom. but, I read a book by Evangelical Protestant Mark Knoll, “Is the Reformation Over” It is not an easy read, but it had a lot on this issue of what was the purpose of the Reformation, and especially post Vatican 2 do we need to keep on “reforming”, or are we merely tied to our new traditions that have replaced the traditions we were fine with at the start of the reformation.

Basically asking in a nutshell, if Calvin, Luther and Zuigli sat down with one of our last few Popes, would they even feel the need to separate from the church?

I think that is an important question to keep in mind. Over 500 years our differences have grown so much based on new traditions and religious identities, but if the Lutheran Church of 1550 for example and Catholic Church of today discussed their issues, would there even be any issues???

I think it would depend, Jon. Calvin and Zwingli would still have separated from Rome. The issues the Reformed churches took with Roman Catholic theology were not the same issues that developed with the theologians of Wittenberg. Zwingli, and Calvin, reinvented and reinterpreted the sacraments, predestination, the atonement, the liturgy, the Person of Christ, images, etc. These are all things Lutherans and Catholics always fundamentally agreed upon. Yet Luther would still disagree with the Catholic understanding of justification, the papacy, the nature and purpose of the Mass and a few other areas where Catholic doctrine is influenced by medieval scholasticism.

 

[CrossofChrist]

Yet Luther would still disagree with the Catholic understanding of justification, the papacy, the nature and purpose of the Mass and a few other areas where Catholic doctrine is influenced by medieval scholasticism.

Hehe. I guess us Catholics disagree about that, eh?

Of course, the interpretation given to Catholic doctrine with regard to those things by medieval scholasticism didn’t exactly help.