"Lutherans" Why the name?

[adf417]

Does this mean we Lutherans have robbed “Peter” to pay Paul?

- on the floor!

 

[Per_Crucem]

Does this mean we Lutherans have robbed “Peter” to pay Paul?

:clapping:

 

[steido01]

So try this on for size.

Your father writes you a letter. He tells you about himself and life and hopes for you etc…

You pass that letter and the stories to give it context to your kids who pass it to their kids.

Then I come in, read the letter and rail on how wrong your family has been in interpreting this letter.

I spread my interpretation of the letter to people and say I am letting your dad speak for himself.

How would you feel?

You sure you’re still reading your father’s letter? Lutherans also love their father’s letter. We just don’t like it when humans embellish the story and write themselves into it as if they play a major role. This is what irks Lutherans about the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome, and why we do not trade one pope for another; not Luther, nor our Confessions, nor our pastors, nor ourselves act as ‘pope’ to us. Christ, and His Word, is our Ruler.

 

[Jon_S_1]

You sure you’re still reading your father’s letter? Lutherans also love their father’s letter. We just don’t like it when humans embellish the story and write themselves into it as if they play a major role. This is what irks Lutherans about the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome, and why we do not trade one pope for another; not Luther, nor our Confessions, nor our pastors, nor ourselves act as ‘pope’ to us. Christ, and His Word, is our Ruler.

Which is why you can’t even agree amongst yourselves.

It is complete arrogance to say you know better than the family by pulling the letter from the family.

We all have the same letter. You just dismiss any tradition passed down alongside it.

 

[steve_b]

lots of silliness here-A Church theoretically can call itself whatever it wants-but in a effort to create order and sanity among the church going public various names have been found to be useful-

Depends on who the founder of one’s Church is, as to whether it is bonafide or not.
The Catholic Church was founded and established by Jesus. All His promises went to His Church that He promised to build.

the term “Catholic Church” really is not terribly specific as it applies to “universal”

Roman catholic Church -now this has meaning -one knows what to expect

The official name of the Church is the Catholic Church. Roman, Melkite, etc etc are rites within the Catholic Church. While ~98% of the Catholic population in the world is Roman rite Catholic, the other rites in the Catholic Church, being in full union with the pope are 100% Catholic also, and fully equal
cm:

the "Evangelical Church formed in Germanyby Martin Luther -shortened to “Lutheran” likely allows one to pretty much expect a certain type of worhsip

the term “Evangelical catholic Church” could apply to the Lutherans but also could apply to various Old catholic and Anglican denominations

the term Episcopal Church actuality is vaque as it could apply to any denomination that has Bishop’s like the Lutherans / Methodists/Anglicans/Orthodox and Old catholics among many others-yet when one sees an Episcopal CHurch in the USA one can pretty much expect a certain type of Worship-by the way the Proper name is "The Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States

Likewise what in the world does “community church” mean-? all Churches are “communities”

ALL THE ABOVE CHURCHES ARE DOING GOD’S WORK

Here’s what I have a problem with. All THAT division. It’s up to 30,000 +, differing and conflicting sects.

Did Jesus want that? NO! John 17:20-23

Look at what Paul said which in effect is what Jesus wants taught John 16:12-15
Romans 16:17-20

btw, regardless of translation issues between bibles, διχοστασίας* = dichostasia *the Greek word used in both selections, that word might be translated as division, or dissension or sedition depending on the translation, but since it’s the same Greek word used in both Rom 16:17. And Gal 5:19… we know from Galatians (division, or dissension or sedition ) carries the penalty of one won’t inherit heaven if they die in that sin.

That’s serious stuff.

We know who all the protestants broke from in the beginning. And from them came serial division. Division on steroids.

So I’m asking, maybe you have the answer, how can one think all that division is doing God’s work when Jesus and Paul said exactly the opposite?

 

[JonNC]

What value is there in him being your bishop if you strip him of all authority???

Hi Jon,
Speaking for me, it seems it isn’t all authority that Lutherans are talking about. Only that authority we believe not granted to him by scripture or the early councils.

Jon

 

[steido01]

Which is why you can’t even agree amongst yourselves.

You’re part of us through Holy Baptism, whether you like it or not. Seems agreement is a troublesome thing, both for those with planks and those with specks. Thanks is certainly due for God’s mercy and patience with his bickering children. :sad_yes:

It is complete arrogance to say you know better than the family by pulling the letter from the family.

You don’t say? I think most Lutherans would agree with you. In fact, when one individual claims to know more about the letter than the entire family, we Lutherans hold their actions “to be false, godless, tyrannical, and [quite] pernicious to the Church.”

We all have the same letter. You just dismiss any tradition passed down alongside it.

Not quite; Lutherans do understand tradition to play a major teaching role in the church catholic. We just teach that traditions cannot contradict Holy Scripture. Reasonable, yes?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Hi Jon,
Speaking for me, it seems it isn’t all authority that Lutherans are talking about. Only that authority we believe not granted to him by scripture or the early councils.

Jon

Such as?

 

[Jon_S_1]

You’re part of us through Holy Baptism, whether you like it or not. Seems agreement is a troublesome thing, both for those with planks and those with specks. Thanks is certainly due for God’s mercy and patience with his bickering children. :sad_yes:

You don’t say? I think most Lutherans would agree with you. In fact, when one individual claims to know more about the letter than the entire family, we Lutherans hold their actions “to be false, godless, tyrannical, and [quite] pernicious to the Church.”

Not quite; Lutherans do understand tradition to play a major teaching role in the church catholic. We just teach that traditions cannot contradict Holy Scripture. Reasonable, yes?

Which tradition of the Catholic Church contradicts scripture?

Who determines that? Luther, the homosexual clergy of the Lutheran Church, or the clergy of the Lutheran Church that denounce Homosexuality, etc etc?

Do you get why your not making any waves here. Your own denomination fundamentally disagrees on what the Bible says.

 

[JonNC]

Such as?

Universal jurisdiction.

Jon

 

[Jon_S_1]

Universal jurisdiction.

Jon

If that doesn’t lie with the Bishop of Rome where does it lie?

 

[JonNC]

If that doesn’t lie with the Bishop of Rome where does it lie?

With no one bishop. There is a primacy of the Bishop of Rome, but not a supremacy.
It seems to me the early Church used councils.

Jon

 

[Jon_S_1]

With no one bishop. There is a primacy of the Bishop of Rome, but not a supremacy.
It seems to me the early Church used councils.

Jon

Who calls a council?

If not all the Bishops want to go then what happens ?

If a point if doctrine is equally divided among the bishops then what is their recourse?

 

[JonNC]

Who calls a council?

If not all the Bishops want to go then what happens ?

If a point if doctrine is equally divided among the bishops then what is their recourse?

You are describing the current issue within the Church, but that isn’t cause to place ex cathedra infallibility in the hand of one see.

Jon

 

[Jon_S_1]

You are describing the current issue within the Church, but that isn’t cause to place ex cathedra infallibility in the hand of one see.

Jon

So your answer is that those issues cannot be solved unless primacy is given to someone.

 

[JonNC]

So your answer is that those issues cannot be solved unless primacy is given to someone.

No. Primacy already exists with someone - the Bishop of Rome. Supremacy doesn’t. But it is generally since there is a claim of supremacy that schism has existed.

Jon

 

[Jon_S_1]

No. Primacy already exists with someone - the Bishop of Rome. Supremacy doesn’t. But it is generally since there is a claim of supremacy that schism has existed.

Jon

Ok so you are ok with the Bishop of Rome being prime but not acting alone. Is that correct?

But he would have to act alone when called upon right? Or when calling a council?

 

[steido01]

Which tradition of the Catholic Church contradicts scripture?

I’ll bite.

The Roman Pontiff claims … that by divine right he has both swords, i.e., the authority also of bestowing kingdoms [enthroning and deposing kings, regulating secular dominions etc.]. And … that to believe this is necessary for salvation.

Where in Scripture does the Pope have the right to name who is the King of England or remove the President of the United States from office? And where in Scripture does it state that those who don’t believe the Pope to hold this power have put their salvation in jeopardy?

Who determines that? Luther, the homosexual clergy of the Lutheran Church, or the clergy of the Lutheran Church that denounce Homosexuality, etc etc?

The church catholic, in general. Likely the Bishops, together, in particular. Like the good ol’ early days. Oh, how we Christians miss the guidance of the united Pentarchy.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’ll bite.

​

Where in Scripture does the Pope have the right to name who is the King of England or remove the President of the United States from office? And where in Scripture does it state that those who don’t believe the Pope to hold this power have put their salvation in jeopardy?

Your changing your story now. You are now saying that unless something is explicitly mentioned in scripture that it contradicts scripture.

Which is it contradicts or is not found?

The church catholic, in general. Likely the Bishops, together, in particular. Like the good ol’ early days. Oh, how we Christians miss the guidance of the united Pentarchy.

But you admit that your own denomination has (due to lack of authority) has dissolved into independent factions believing different things.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I’ll bite.

​

Where in Scripture does the Pope have the right to name who is the King of England or remove the President of the United States from office? And where in Scripture does it state that those who don’t believe the Pope to hold this power have put their salvation in jeopardy?

The church catholic, in general. Likely the Bishops, together, in particular. Like the good ol’ early days. Oh, how we Christians miss the guidance of the united Pentarchy.

Can you also provide a Catholic Source for the above quote. Thanks.