"Lutherans" Why the name?

[marywarfield]

Hillarious. Go tell Cardinal McKerrick he’s too influenced by Methodists and non-denominational evangelicals. The logical lengths that are present here are too stretched to really respond to. You’re right that a modern spirit has invaded all churches. The source of this is not Protestantism, as much as you want it to be, to suit your apologetic argument. Rather, it’s sin, postmodernism, etc.

Except that God will actually deal with human disobedience to His law. And yes, it does. If human civil law were not enforced by the authorities, could they be said to have any authority at all?

I agree that the new disfunctionality is primarily due
to the loss of a concept of Christian man and replaced
with the Psychological man therefore a loss in the
sense of sin in man pointed out decades ago by
T.S. Eliot. Yes and the demonic of course has taken
full advantage of it ever since.
However you cannot blame it entirely on the secular
world. Protestantism has had terrific influence in
increasing the relativism we see today.
I mean if we stop to think about it isn’t
the action by Henry VIII a prototype for the
relativism of our post modern era?

 

[Per_Crucem]

I agree that the new disfunctionality is primarily due
to the loss of a concept of Christian man and replaced
with the Psychological man therefore a loss in the
sense of sin in man pointed out decades ago by
T.S. Eliot. Yes and the demonic of course has taken
full advantage of it ever since.
However you cannot blame it entirely on the secular
world. Protestantism has had terrific influence in
increasing the relativism we see today.
I mean if we stop to think about it isn’t
the action by Henry VIII a prototype for the
relativism of our post modern era?

You won’t find me defending the actions of Henry VIII anytime soon. I agree with the first part of your statement. With the latter, I cannot identify, because I am not of that tradition. Along with the Catholic Church, we have condemned every form of modernism and rationalism since the time of the Enlightenment.

 

[steido01]

How does your church deal with lay people and their personal opinions?

As Per Crucem noted, in Lutheranism, individuals who do not conform publicly to the teachings of the church are not permitted to partake in the Sacrament until they publicly repent.

Or better yet how do they deal with clergy that hold heterodox views? They just go to or form a new Lutheran group right? Which Lutheran group is “The real Lutherans” the one that you belong to right!

They are reprimanded by our proper ecclesial authorities, and called to repent. If they refuse and continue to teach false doctrine, they can be removed from office or defrocked entirely. At that point if they choose to leave, they are no longer practicing Lutheranism, are they? Much like your priests and bishops who decide that they can ordain women.

‘Real Lutherans’ are those who subscribe to the Confessions because they accurately reflect the Faith, as recorded in Scripture and the traditions of the church catholic. These ‘Confessional Lutherans’ exist within every Lutheran body, even though some of these so-called “Lutheran” bodies are not Lutheran in the slightest at the national level (Particularly the ELCA… but that’s another thread). This is how I know Per Crucem is a “Real Lutheran” even though he belongs to a different Synod than I. Similar to the Orthodox Churches, if that analogy helps.

Are you calling for an inquisition?!!!

Huh? Sure, if that’s how y’all want to go about it. Their job would be pretty easy considering that Pelosi, et al. have made public comments against your communion’s teachings in particular and against Christendom in general.

 

[steve_b]

It’s not a low blow at all. Do I think Catholics are happy about people like Pelosi still receiving communion? Of course not. That doesn’t mean your ecclesiastical leadership doesn’t continue to allow it. You can talk about how the authority of the magisterium prevents “Protestant disunity and anarchy” in theory all you want, but if it doesn’t actually happen in reality, what good is it?

Actually she had been warned to change her views or not receive communion…then she was finally told not to receive communion because she wasn’t changing her positions.
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/cardinal-burkes-advice-to-nancy-pelosi-back-off-holy-communion/

Does she comply with that? She doesn’t follow the Church on a whole lot of issues.

I would just draw your attention to a couple of points. Re: leadership and authority

• Is there any authority this side of eternity that can prevent a human from disunity or anarchy? For example consider: Thousands of people were taught by Jesus face to face at the bread of life discourse, still they left Him [Jn 6] …true? Was Jesus not a good leader? Did He not have enough authority to prevent them from leaving… or force them to do what He said?
• Free Will is double edged. It’s what makes us culpable for what we do both good and bad

Free Will in action

---

Tit 3:10-11

“As for a man who is factious ( [αἱρετικὸν (http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm) ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, ,διχοστασίαι and factions ,αἱρέσεις party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Open the links for the definition of the words.

• faction in Tit 3: = heretic. (definition of heresy 2089 ). IOW, one who has been baptised, and embraces heresy, is condemned by God, and they won’t be going to heaven if they die in that sin.
• faction & dissension in Gal 5: = mortal sins that if one dies in them they won’t go to heaven as scripture says.

And there’s no expiration date to these warnings or consequences.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Actually she had been warned to change her views or not receive communion…then she was finally told not to receive communion because she wasn’t changing her positions.
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/cardinal-burkes-advice-to-nancy-pelosi-back-off-holy-communion/

Does she comply with that? She doesn’t follow the Church on a whole lot of issues.

Okay, so let me get this right. Cardinal Burke (who doesn’t even oversee the diocese of DC or San Francisco) has warned her not to receive communion. Great. A bunch of Catholics have said the same thing. Pelosi, not surprisingly, ignores Burke’s opinion, as well as the church writ large. Then Cardinal McKerrick and Archbishop Cordileone…who are fully aware of Burke’s statements as well as overall Christian teaching…continue to commune her. And this is a better situation, how?

 

[steve_b]

Okay, so let me get this right. Cardinal Burke (who doesn’t even oversee the diocese of DC or San Francisco) has warned her not to receive communion. Great. A bunch of Catholics have said the same thing. Pelosi, not surprisingly, ignores Burke’s opinion, as well as the church writ large. Then Cardinal McKerrick and Archbishop Cordileone…who are fully aware of Burke’s statements as well as overall Christian teaching…continue to commune her. And this is a better situation, how?

You commented previously

“That doesn’t mean your ecclesiastical leadership doesn’t continue to allow it. You can talk about how the authority of the magisterium prevents “Protestant disunity and anarchy” in theory all you want, but if it doesn’t actually happen in reality, what good is it?”

So I gave you an example where the Church DID act.

Cardinal Burke is prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura, the highest legal body in the Catholic Church. As an aside, this doesn’t mean Card Burke excommunicated her from the Church… that is yet

Re: Archbishop Cordileone cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/pelosi-s-archbishop-catholics-dissenting-defined-church-teaching

 

[Per_Crucem]

You commented previously

“That doesn’t mean your ecclesiastical leadership doesn’t continue to allow it. You can talk about how the authority of the magisterium prevents “Protestant disunity and anarchy” in theory all you want, but if it doesn’t actually happen in reality, what good is it?”

So I gave you an example where the Church DID act.

Have any priests been instructed to deny her communion and have they done so?

 

[steve_b]

Have any priests been instructed to deny her communion and have they done so?

I’m not on the archbishop’s personal email list but I have every reason to think his direction is known & followed.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I’m not on the archbishop’s personal email list but I have every reason to think his direction is known & followed.

I will patiently wait to see the headlines coming out when she is denied at the rail, either in SF or in DC.

 

[steido01]

I will patiently wait to see the headlines coming out when she is denied at the rail, either in SF or in DC.

I say this without malice toward the Magisterium or my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters… I’m not holding my breath.

 

[JonNC]

I will patiently wait to see the headlines coming out when she is denied at the rail, either in SF or in DC.

One can only speculate as to the severity of the retribution against the Catholic Church were they to do so, considering the full-out attack on the Catholic Church in particular and Christianity in general already under way in Washington, of which she is a complicit and active part.

Jon

 

[Per_Crucem]

One can only speculate as to the severity of the retribution against the Catholic Church were they to do so, considering the full-out attack on the Catholic Church in particular and Christianity in general already under way in Washington, of which she is a complicit and active part.

Jon

All the more reason for the Church to do so!

 

[Jon_S_1]

I will patiently wait to see the headlines coming out when she is denied at the rail, either in SF or in DC.

Does she go to mass? I have never seen or heard of her going to mass

 

[Per_Crucem]

Does she go to mass? I have never seen or heard of her going to mass

ISTM every Sunday, from every report I’ve read. Why she hasn’t left Christianity and become Episcopalian, I will never know.

 

[marywarfield]

Does she go to mass? I have never seen or heard of her going to mass

Oh yeah. Most recently she had Mass offered for
her gratitude at accomplishing some nonsense politically
at a favorite Catholic College. And she attended it
as well as offered it. About 2 weeks ago?

 

[steve_b]

I will patiently wait to see the headlines coming out when she is denied at the rail, either in SF or in DC.

She already knows what her status is. No sgt@arms is standing there at communion to prohibit her from receiving. Did you read Cordileone’s statement?

Archbishop Cordileone said, (from that article)

“The Church’s teaching on worthiness to receive Communion has been very clear and consistent from literally the very beginning, going all the way back to St. Paul, who writes in 1 Corinthians that anyone who does not receive the Eucharist worthily – that is, if they’re in a state of sin – blasphemes the body and blood of the Lord.”
To receive Communion properly, a Catholic must “regulate one’s life according to what the Church teaches,” said Archbishop Cordileone. “So it’s belief and practice: faith and morals.”

“Anyone who would violate this, whether it’s dissenting from a defined Church teaching – we know from revelation, Church doctrine – or living in a way that violates the moral teachings of the Church in a serious way, what we would call mortal sin, are not properly disposed to receive Holy Communion,” said the archbishop. He added, “As St. Paul teaches, if they dare to approach, knowing they are in such a state of sin, they bring condemnation upon themselves.”

As an aside, Priests don’t ask a communicant if they’ve been to confession before they give them communion. Even a highly visible politician with a history. If on Saturday pelosi made a complete confession, and radically changed her views as a result, and presented herself for communion on Sunday, she could receive the Eucharist. And who would be able to know the particulars but she and the priest. And the priest can’t talk about the confession. Only Pelosi could do that. But because she is a highly public figure, it would be easy to see if she really did change. Since this is a (what if) scenerio, and If she didn’t do a complete turnaround, Cordileone laid out the consequences for her soul

 

[cath4alltime]

So really the Church is unable to do anything and the scandal goes on and on

 

[steve_b]

So really the Church is unable to do anything and the scandal goes on and on

let’s turn that around

When Adam and Eve went against God’s command, and the human race does the same, does that show that God is unable to do anything about it? It’s all a test from God. A life long test. And like any test, one can pass or fail it. The test is always about can we be obedient to God and persevere till the end? And at some point the test is over and one receives their grade.

Re: disobedient people

The scriptures and the Church are clear, division from the Church and her teaching and remaining so will prevent one from going to heaven. So with that knowledge and consequence, one could ask, who in their right mind would go against it? Yet people do. Why? Is it because people think God won’t make good on the warnings? That’s a dumb idea since we know He does. So why do people continue to ignore the warnings? The Church teaches and warns. She does her part. After that the testing is over for the individual. Then…

2 Cor 5: 10 we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

 

[SyroMalankara]

As an aside, Priests don’t ask a communicant if they’ve been to confession before they give them communion. Even a highly visible politician with a history. If on Saturday pelosi made a complete confession, and radically changed her views as a result, and presented herself for communion on Sunday, she could receive the Eucharist. And who would be able to know the particulars but she and the priest. And the priest can’t talk about the confession. Only Pelosi could do that. But because she is a highly public figure, it would be easy to see if she really did change. Since this is a (what if) scenerio, and If she didn’t do a complete turnaround, Cordileone laid out the consequences for her soul

I don’t know about this… I know quite a few Orthodox priests, and some Eastern Catholic priests who will not give Communion to someone they have never seen, has never confessed to them, or has even attended their Church. If you are not a “regular”, it is usually proper in the Orthodox or Eastern Catholic context to speak to the priest, and if any question, to ask the priest prior to Liturgy if receiving is possible. I understand this isn’t always possible on the Latin side due to size, time, and circumstance, but some kind of strictness may be possible. There is way too much laxity these days.

 

[steve_b]

I don’t know about this… I know quite a few Orthodox priests, and some Eastern Catholic priests who will not give Communion to someone they have never seen, has never confessed to them, or has even attended their Church. If you are not a “regular”, it is usually proper in the Orthodox or Eastern Catholic context to speak to the priest, and if any question, to ask the priest prior to Liturgy if receiving is possible. I understand this isn’t always possible on the Latin side due to size, time, and circumstance, but some kind of strictness may be possible. There is way too much laxity these days.

I was speaking to a friend last night who is an Assyrian Catholic. She asked me after celebrating in a Latin rite mass, are your masses always this big? Ours are very small she said and faces don’t change very often.

I asked her, look around at your fellow Catholics of the Latin rite. As she pointed our, her rite is very ethnic. She looked around in the Latin mass and there was huge diversity of ethnicities. She asked me, how many people does this Church hold, and I said 900. She said you have 5 masses and they are all full? I said pretty much. And I said there are 2 other parishes 20 minutes to the north and south of us and they are just as full. I mentioned to her that the Catholic Church is made up of many rites, the Latin / Roman rite is ~98% of the worldwide total of Catholics, and the other rites making up ~2% of the total. I mentioned to her, that ALL rites in the Catholic Church are 100% Catholic. No one is more Catholic than the other. I think it put her mind at ease.

To your point, I agree strictness is important. That’s why the Church instructs people on what is right and wrong. Once a person knows the truth they can’t fudge, they can’t invent or reinvent their own truth to suit their own situation. They might think they can, but as Paul teaches one can’t fool Jesus

2 Cor 5: 10 we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.