Luther's music in the Mass

[JesuXPIPassio]

What would happen if I went up to priests and asked them, “If there were a hymn written by a man we know to be in hell, do we include the hymn in the Mass?”

The answer will probably be an invariable “no.”

Saint Teresa of Avila, one of the most respected and important saints we’ve ever had, said that she saw the Lutheran heretics of her day going to hell. This almost certainly includes Luther himself.

Yet we have his song “A Mighty Fortress” in the Mass and in the Liturgy of the Hours.

I thought to give it the benefit of the doubt and do a little research before I make a judgement. I thought that perhaps Luther may have still been a Catholic when he wrote the song. I learnt that this is not the case, and he wrote this song six years or so after his excommunication. This song was used as a sort anthem for the protestants who were fighting our Church, so this song seems even worse for the Mass on historical grounds.

I have heard the explanation that if it doesn’t contradict Doctrine, it’s fine. But to me, there is a greater issue at hand here. Having Luther’s song is practically an endorsement of Luther and his beliefs. It’s like taking a hymn written by Hitler and putting it in the Mass.

What’s your opinion on this? I’d greatly appreciate more comments so perhaps I could make a better judgement on this song. It feels awkward for me when they use this song during the Entrance Hymn and we have to stand up and sing it. I don’t want to remain seated or to simply not sing, because it looks really ugly to do that, like it’s an insult to Jesus and the Mass. Unless if you’re sick and can’t stand, there isn’t an excuse for it.

 

[jbuck919]

First, we don’t know Luther to be in hell. Universal Catholic teaching precludes such a judgment, although to me he seems to have been the most dangerous heretic of all time for a variety of reasons.

However, when I went to Rome for the '75 jubilee, I attended Good Friday at the Collegio di San Anselmo, the Benedictine establishment there. It was beyond belief as the greatest Gregorian thing I had ever seen or heard. At some point later in the service, they decided to sing four verses of the Luther chorale “Hezlich tut mich verlangen,” better known as “O Haupt voll Blut und wunden,” and commonly in English as “O Sacred Head Surrounded.” They sang one verse each in German, English, Italian, and French. Even at that age I could manage them all phonetically, but I hated every second of it. What was the point? They had produced a perfect service to God, and ruined it by an early version of political correctness. Bothers me to this day.

 

[oldfogey]

The great musical heritage of the Church is ignored and we are given Protestant hymns to sing at our Mass on a regular basis. This does give weight to the charge that the Liturgy has been Protestantized, IMHO.

I don’t “participate” when these hymns are sung, so I guess that means I have rebelled against the express purpose of the NO, ie “active participation.”

 

[mercygate]

To condemn a perfectly orthodox hymn because it was written by someone who was a heretic is to participate in what is known as the “genetic fallacy.”

Tertullian, who became a heretic, was one of the most brilliant and influential theologians of the 2nd century. 90% of his stuff is perfectly orthodox.

Same goes for Protestants. 90% of what they believe does not contradict Catholic theology.

Whining will get you nowhere. If you want Gregorian chant, start a Gregorian group and deliver a product your parish can use – maybe at first only for special occasions but perhaps it will catch on.

I’m a big complainer myself about music. I won’t join the choir because Haas, Joncas, and the other nouvelle hymnodists drive me nuts. But I AM trying to kick-start a Gregorian club. And in CCD, I am teaching my sixth-graders the Sign of the Cross, Gloria Patri, Pater Noster, and Ave Maria in Latin . . .

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

At some point later in the service, they decided to sing four verses of the Luther chorale “Hezlich tut mich verlangen,” better known as “O Haupt voll Blut und wunden,” and commonly in English as “O Sacred Head Surrounded.”

That song was Luther’s? I thought Bach wrote it in his Passion series.

 

[mercygate]

That song was Luther’s? I thought Bach wrote it in his Passion series.

CyberHymnal attributes the words to St. Bernard of Clairvaux. cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/s/osacredh.htm

 

[oldfogey]

To condemn a perfectly orthodox hymn because it was written by someone who was a heretic is to participate in what is known as the “genetic fallacy.”

Tertullian, who became a heretic, was one of the most brilliant and influential theologians of the 2nd century. 90% of his stuff is perfectly orthodox.

Same goes for Protestants. 90% of what they believe does not contradict Catholic theology.

.

If Judas wrote a “perfectly orthodox” hymn, would we be singing it?

By the way, the other writers you cited…I don’t sing those either.

 

[mercygate]

If Judas wrote a “perfectly orthodox” hymn, would we be singing it?

By the way, the other writers you cited…I don’t sing those either.

Ninety percent of what Protestants believe (and sing) does not contradict Catholic doctrine. Ninety percent of Protestant hymnody so far outstrips, both theologically and musically, what is making the rounds in Catholic parishes today that I would gleefully sing it instead of the often theologically questionable drivel that appears in current Catholic hymnals.

For a survey of great hymns (many of which originated in the Protestant world), pick up a copy of the unquestionably orthodox Fr. George W. Rutler’s outstanding little book, Brightest and Bestoriginally published by Ignatius Press. Is that good enough for you?

 

[AJV]

If Judas wrote a “perfectly orthodox” hymn, would we be singing it?

By the way, the other writers you cited…I don’t sing those either.

Well, at times the Church has taken things- like in the old breviary, several of the antiphons, etc. are taken from apocryphal works including some Gnostic ones. On their own they do not contradict the faith in any way.

 

[wynd]

Ninety percent of what Protestants believe (and sing) does not contradict Catholic doctrine. Ninety percent of Protestant hymnody so far outstrips, both theologically and musically, what is making the rounds in Catholic parishes today that I would gleefully sing it instead of the often theologically questionable drivel that appears in current Catholic hymnals.

Sadly, very true. Most Protestant hymns are more Catholic than the current Catholic hymns.

 

[CatholicNerd]

The great musical heritage of the Church is ignored and we are given Protestant hymns to sing at our Mass on a regular basis. This does give weight to the charge that the Liturgy has been Protestantized, IMHO.

I don’t “participate” when these hymns are sung, so I guess that means I have rebelled against the express purpose of the NO, ie “active participation.”

As a 21-year-old music director at a parish, I’m often bombarded by comments like this from people who assume that they are somehow in charge of the music program by virtue of their age, and the litany is getting a little bit… old. To be frank, this charge is no better than the one from Evangelicals that the Catholic Church is “pagan” because we celebrate Christmas and Easter, two days that WERE pagan holidays.

Yes, I know that four-part chorales are NOT the first option for music at Mass laid down for us in the IGMR, but at the moment I (and I’m sure a great number of orthodox music directors) do NOT HAVE A CHOICE in the matter. Yes, I started a Schola at my parish, and yes, we’re getting better. But the sad reality is that we can only sing a chant or two at each Mass at the moment. And why is that? Nobody taught these brave men and women how to even read Vatican notation. For years they’ve been deprived of any authentically Catholic music in the liturgy. Forgive me if my generation cannot undo the musical damage done by my parents’ generation OVERNIGHT.

Another unfortunate factor is the ignorance of the priests I work with. They are very holy men who are committed to preserving the integrity of the Catholic faith in the parishes here, but they are CLUELESS about how the liturgy ought to be celebrated. I have observed that men who are trained in liturgically lax seminaries turn out to be liturgically lax themselves (imagine that). Again, this problem is only NOW being remedied. Priests who wake up to find their parish churches devoid of OCP hymnals and the pews populated by the Liber Cantualis and Adoremus Hymnal often get VERY upset, and orthodox music directors find themselves out of a job. Again, forgive me if I cannot undo the damage done by my parents’ generation OVERNIGHT.

Look at the rubrics. The order of the Mass is NOT “protestantized” in its purest form. If you do not feel comfortable singing music that the “protestants sing,” then by all means, please DON’T SING. It’s ok. The rubrics do not demand that you sing, and you won’t find yourself in purgatory for not singing at Mass (if anything, having to endure nasty music for years will be the fast-track OUT of purgatory). But please, do not run around telling your priests and music directors that they’re protestant lackeys. You really think that I LIKE plugging in chorales and other “protestant” songs? Remember that some Anglican hymns actually correspond to the Proper of the Mass, at least loosely. Until I have priests ready to celebrate the Liturgy properly and a non-reactionary bishop, that’s what I’m stuck with. Some music directors, like me, are converts who have suffered and are still suffering much for their conversions. Please don’t call us protestant lackeys. Thanks.

/endrant

 

[mercygate]

As a 21-year-old music director at a parish, I’m often bombarded by comments like this from people who assume that they are somehow in charge of the music program by virtue of their age, and the litany is getting a little bit… old. To be frank, this charge is no better than the one from Evangelicals that the Catholic Church is “pagan” because we celebrate Christmas and Easter, two days that WERE pagan holidays.

Yes, I know that four-part chorales are NOT the first option for music at Mass laid down for us in the IGMR, but at the moment I (and I’m sure a great number of orthodox music directors) do NOT HAVE A CHOICE in the matter. Yes, I started a Schola at my parish, and yes, we’re getting better. But the sad reality is that we can only sing a chant or two at each Mass at the moment. And why is that? Nobody taught these brave men and women how to even read Vatican notation. For years they’ve been deprived of any authentically Catholic music in the liturgy. Forgive me if my generation cannot undo the musical damage done by my parents’ generation OVERNIGHT.

Another unfortunate factor is the ignorance of the priests I work with. They are very holy men who are committed to preserving the integrity of the Catholic faith in the parishes here, but they are CLUELESS about how the liturgy ought to be celebrated. I have observed that men who are trained in liturgically lax seminaries turn out to be liturgically lax themselves (imagine that). Again, this problem is only NOW being remedied. Priests who wake up to find their parish churches devoid of OCP hymnals and the pews populated by the Liber Cantualis and Adoremus Hymnal often get VERY upset, and orthodox music directors find themselves out of a job. Again, forgive me if I cannot undo the damage done by my parents’ generation OVERNIGHT.

Look at the rubrics. The order of the Mass is NOT “protestantized” in its purest form. If you do not feel comfortable singing music that the “protestants sing,” then by all means, please DON’T SING. It’s ok. The rubrics do not demand that you sing, and you won’t find yourself in purgatory for not singing at Mass (if anything, having to endure nasty music for years will be the fast-track OUT of purgatory). But please, do not run around telling your priests and music directors that they’re protestant lackeys. You really think that I LIKE plugging in chorales and other “protestant” songs? Remember that some Anglican hymns actually correspond to the Proper of the Mass, at least loosely. Until I have priests ready to celebrate the Liturgy properly and a non-reactionary bishop, that’s what I’m stuck with. Some music directors, like me, are converts who have suffered and are still suffering much for their conversions. Please don’t call us protestant lackeys. Thanks.

/endrant

I taught myself to read “square notes” – can I join your schola?

As something of an old fogey myself (I was BORN this way – at your age, I was teaching myself Gregorian notation and singing the Salve in the shower), I am thrilled to see young people like you coming up to save the Church from my generation.

We have a LOT to answer for!

 

[CatholicNerd]

I taught myself to read “square notes” – can I join your schola?

As something of an old fogey myself (I was BORN this way – at your age, I was teaching myself Gregorian notation and singing the Salve in the shower), I am thrilled to see young people like you coming up to save the Church from my generation.

We have a LOT to answer for!

If I win the lottery, I will have you and your family on a plane for Washington State immediately If there are any posters or lurkers from the Tri-Cities reading this, St. Joe’s really does have a Schola. PM me if you’re interested.

 

[rr1213]

What would happen if I went up to priests and asked them, “If there were a hymn written by a man we know to be in hell, do we include the hymn in the Mass?”

The answer will probably be an invariable “no.”

Saint Teresa of Avila, one of the most respected and important saints we’ve ever had, said that she saw the Lutheran heretics of her day going to hell. This almost certainly includes Luther himself.

Yet we have his song “A Mighty Fortress” in the Mass and in the Liturgy of the Hours.

I thought to give it the benefit of the doubt and do a little research before I make a judgement. I thought that perhaps Luther may have still been a Catholic when he wrote the song. I learnt that this is not the case, and he wrote this song six years or so after his excommunication. This song was used as a sort anthem for the protestants who were fighting our Church, so this song seems even worse for the Mass on historical grounds.

I have heard the explanation that if it doesn’t contradict Doctrine, it’s fine. But to me, there is a greater issue at hand here. Having Luther’s song is practically an endorsement of Luther and his beliefs. It’s like taking a hymn written by Hitler and putting it in the Mass.

What’s your opinion on this? I’d greatly appreciate more comments so perhaps I could make a better judgement on this song. It feels awkward for me when they use this song during the Entrance Hymn and we have to stand up and sing it. I don’t want to remain seated or to simply not sing, because it looks really ugly to do that, like it’s an insult to Jesus and the Mass. Unless if you’re sick and can’t stand, there isn’t an excuse for it.

It seems pretty presumptious of you to say that Luther is burning in hell now. The man was a saint and I would suspect that he has a saint’s reward.

Now, once you choke on your coffee over the previous statement, tell me what problem you have with A Mighty Fortress? This truly one of the great hymns of Christendom. The music is beyond stirring and the text is powerful. Have you actually read the text? Take a look:

 A mighty fortress is our God, a bulwark never failing;
 Our helper He, amid the flood of mortal ills prevailing:
 For still our ancient foe doth seek to work us woe;
 His craft and power are great, and, armed with cruel hate,
 On earth is not his equal.

Did we in our own strength confide, our striving would be losing;
Were not the right Man on our side, the Man of God’s own choosing:
Dost ask who that may be? Christ Jesus, it is He;
Lord Sabaoth, His Name, from age to age the same,
And He must win the battle.

And though this world, with devils filled, should threaten to undo us,
We will not fear, for God hath willed His truth to triumph through us:
The Prince of Darkness grim, we tremble not for him;
His rage we can endure, for lo, his doom is sure,
One little word shall fell him.

That word above all earthly powers, no thanks to them, abideth;
The Spirit and the gifts are ours through Him Who with us sideth:
Let goods and kindred go, this mortal life also;
The body they may kill: God’s truth abideth still,
His kingdom is forever.

You tell me what portion of the above text cannot be accepted by a faithful Catholic? Or a faithful member of the Orthodox Churches? Or a faithful Protestant? What portion?

There is a lot that the Catholic Church does well…hymnology is not one of things. If you want to sing Catholic songs, why not use some of the choruses from the Mass as done by Bach or, especially, Schubert? Beautiful stuff. I wouldn’t mind singing Schubert’s German Mass, Mass in A or Mass in G anytime of the week.

 

[oldfogey]

Exactly when did I call anyone a “protestant lackey?”

I also applaud anyone who is trying to upgrade the music at Mass. But not everyone needs to learn Gregorian chant for there to be better music. There are plenty of older hyms in both English and Latin (non chant) that are NEVER SUNG. They are not even in the OCP hymnal, which you seem to agree is substandard. And part of my frustration is having to listen to inane or protestant hymns when we already have better.

And, yes, asking why the situation is at it is leads me to think that there is an agenda behind it, but it is not any one music directors fault.

Peace.

 

[CatholicNerd]

Thanks for the clarification. I was a bit confused about the words “We’re handed” in your original post. I’ve been on liturgical and musical overload this week, so I’m a bit snippy about it at the moment. Pray that our Lord will reignite the fire of Charity in my heart before Sunday. Maybe a nice hour with my Victoria Requiem CD’ll do the trick.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

The premise of this thread is just plain silly. I will simply point this out, and if it has already been stated then I apologize: “Almost all hymns consist of, primarily, collections of biblical passages set to music.” Now, regardless of who compiled them, does that take away from their valid message? Also, this reminds me of the Donatist heresy that the validity of the sacraments is dependent on the moral integrity of the distributor…

 

[pnewton]

As a 21-year-old music director at a parish, I’m often bombarded by comments like this from people who assume that they are somehow in charge of the music program by virtue of their age, and the litany is getting a little bit… old. To be frank, this charge is no better than the one from Evangelicals that the Catholic Church is “pagan” because we celebrate Christmas and Easter, two days that WERE pagan holidays.

This is an interesting point and one I will no doubt steal some day. The Church does have a history of making holy even pagan things and using them to give glory to God. This tradition predates the use of Latin. In fact, even Paul used the Greek statuary as object lessons to the Athenians into who God is.

PS - We do not know the fate of Luther or any of his specific followers, St. Theresa not withstanding.

 

[JesuXPIPassio]

It seems pretty presumptious of you to say that Luther is burning in hell now. The man was a saint and I would suspect that he has a saint’s reward.

Now, once you choke on your coffee over the previous statement, tell me what problem you have with A Mighty Fortress? This truly one of the great hymns of Christendom. The music is beyond stirring and the text is powerful. Have you actually read the text? Take a look:

You tell me what portion of the above text cannot be accepted by a faithful Catholic? Or a faithful member of the Orthodox Churches? Or a faithful Protestant? What portion?

Say what you will, but in our Church’s view, Luther was a heretic and we most certainly do not consider him a saint. Also, I didn’t say that he’s burning in hell – that came from the writings of Saint Teresa of Avila, someone whom the Catholic Church does view as a saint.

Furthermore, in my original post, I never said that there are any doctrinal reasons against the text of the song. As I said, it is more about an implied endorsement of Luther than it is about the actual song. I used to like A Mighty Fortress myself until I looked in the fine print and saw who wrote it.

And once again, even if we just base it on historical reasons, A Mighty Fortress isn’t a song fit for Catholics, because it was the anthem of the people who fought against the Church. You know the songs of the US Revolutionary War? Would it make sense to sing those songs at ceremonies with the Queen of England? Even if they’re songs that are about general patriotism and have nothing about the US or the UK in it, would it ever be appropriate to have these songs there?

If I can bring in another example, the Italian Monarchy captured the Papal States. The Pope and the Italian King were at odds. Would it make sense, then, to have the Swiss Guards play the Italian anthem before the Pope? Wouldn’t this be an insult to the Pope?

Please remember that this is from a Catholic perspective – a perspective that does *not *view Luther as a saint, a perspective that took after Saint Teresa of Avila, among others. So the question isn’t about the song. It’s about Luther. Having hymns written by him is practically an endorsement of him and his beliefs – this is something that contradicts five centuries of Catholic opposition to Luther.

Oldfogey put it aptly when he compared it to having a hymn written by Judas Iscariot. Why have a hymn written by Judas when we have a bunch written by, say, Saint Thomas Aquinas? Frankly, the truth is that we view Luther more closely to Judas than we do to Saint Thomas Aquinas.

 

[lak611]

Personally, I like “A Mighty Fortress”, maybe because although I am a Catholic, I also am part German. I don’t see anything wrong with the hymn in terms of doctine. We sing that hymn in my church often. I actually like many of the tradtional Protestant hymns better than some of the modern songs that are sung in church (i.e. “Sing a New Church, City of God, Gather Us In” :crying: :bigyikes: ). To me, the Protestant hymns are more correct than some of the Marty Haugen/David Haas, OCP hymnal junk out there!