Luther's music in the Mass

[mdgspencer]

What if the priest during his sermon quoted some worthy statement from Stalin (or, if this doesn’t seem to go to far, from Hitler?) If it is perfectly acceptable to use Luther’s battle anthem against Catholicism, are there any grounds for disliking such a quote from the priest during mass? These may seem ridiculous examples, but I find the use of Luther’s hymn during mass also rather absurd.
Persoanlly, I enjoy hearing Luther’s hymn, which I find rather magnificent. However, the question isn’t whether it is good music, but whether using it may not seem an endorsement of Luther. Those in general who are disturbed by the original poster’s objection haven’t considered his actual objection.

 

[rr1213]

What if the priest during his sermon quoted some worthy statement from Stalin (or, if this doesn’t seem to go to far, from Hitler?) If it is perfectly acceptable to use Luther’s battle anthem against Catholicism, are there any grounds for disliking such a quote from the priest during mass? These may seem ridiculous examples, but I find the use of Luther’s hymn during mass also rather absurd.
Persoanlly, I enjoy hearing Luther’s hymn, which I find rather magnificent. However, the question isn’t whether it is good music, but whether using it may not seem an endorsement of Luther. Those in general who are disturbed by the original poster’s objection haven’t considered his actual objection.

…and are you going to ignore the great hymns by John and Charles Wesley also? And Issac Watts? And Robert Robertson? The list of Protestant hymns writers goes on and on. What about the Choral Masses written by Protestants? Hymns and liturgical music is something that we Protestants do very, very well. You are going to have slim fare indeed if you sing only music authored by Roman Catholics.

 

[Digitonomy]

You know the songs of the US Revolutionary War? Would it make sense to sing those songs at ceremonies with the Queen of England?

After the attacks on 9/11, the Queen ordered the Star-Spangled Banner to be played at a couple of her public events. Admittedly, this dates from the War of 1812, not the Revolution.

 

[lak611]

If we really wanted to get techinical, those of us who are Catholic would have to dump “For All the Saints” into the trashbin, because it is actually a Protestant hymn. Personally, I find most of the traditional Protestant hymns, including Luther’s
“A Mighty Fortress” to be more theologically sound than many of the modern OCP garbage like the Marty Haugen/David Haas junk! “Sing A New Church” and “Gather Us In” should be gathered and added to the new bonfire! I’ll take Luther, Wesley, or Watts any day over the Haugen/Haas garbage!

 

[lak611]

After the attacks on 9/11, the Queen ordered the Star-Spangled Banner to be played at a couple of her public events. Admittedly, this dates from the War of 1812, not the Revolution.

By the way, I have no problem with “God Save the Queen”. Us Yanks hijacked that tune anyway, and turned it into “America” aka my country tis of thee, etc.

 

[LilyM]

CatholicNerd:

Well, ok. I’ll stop listening to Mozart because he was a Mason. My Bach scores? I’ll be sure to burn them before I defile a Mass with his “protestant” music. Wow, just think of all the hymn tunes we’ll have to throw out because they were written by protestants. I guess “Holy God, we Praise Thy Name” will have to go… and oh no, the beloved chorale setting of “Tantum Ergo” will have to go too. Oh, wait… the Chant? I think Luther sang that. Well, darn, there go the Ordinaries --oh no, Kyrie Eleison is Greek! And on Holy Friday we sing the Trisagion!!! Can’t have any Orthodox music at our Masses–…

OY VEY, get a grip, man. I understand and appreciate your zeal to defend Holy Mother Church, but rejecting even the notes penned by Protestants? That’s taking things way too far. Believe you me, the version of “A Mighty Fortress” that is sung at Mass is nothing like the text that Luther penned. Not the latter verses, anyway. As I and other posters have already stated, the Church goes out of her way to sanctify beautiful things that were once not Catholic.

Just think - the very same ‘defiled’ Protestant Bach actually WROTE Catholic Masses, cantatas and other bits and bobs for Catholic Masses as well! I personally absolutely love his Mass in C Minor and play it often (along with the Brandenburg Concertos, the Messiah sometimes, et al). Not to mention, of course, Mozart’s absolutely sublime religious music, including Ave Verum Corpus, Exsultate Jubilate and his Requiem, seeing as how he may have been a dreaded freemason

Obviously whichever individuals commissioned Bach or Mozart to write Mass music were sensible enough to recognise sublime talent that was God’s gift and more than fitting to be used in his worship and in the Catholic Mass. From whatever source it springs. Would that those who are slamming ‘A Mighty Fortress’ had even half of this common sense.

St Teresa, Doctor of the Church though she may be, did utterly wrong to say that Luther or any other soul was in hell.

 

[jimmy]

First, we don’t know Luther to be in hell. Universal Catholic teaching precludes such a judgment, although to me he seems to have been the most dangerous heretic of all time for a variety of reasons.

However, when I went to Rome for the '75 jubilee, I attended Good Friday at the Collegio di San Anselmo, the Benedictine establishment there. It was beyond belief as the greatest Gregorian thing I had ever seen or heard. At some point later in the service, they decided to sing four verses of the Luther chorale “Hezlich tut mich verlangen,” better known as “O Haupt voll Blut und wunden,” and commonly in English as “O Sacred Head Surrounded.” They sang one verse each in German, English, Italian, and French. Even at that age I could manage them all phonetically, but I hated every second of it. What was the point? They had produced a perfect service to God, and ruined it by an early version of political correctness. Bothers me to this day.

Luther did not write O Sacred Head Surrounded. That is a much older hymn than Luther. If you look in a hymnal you will see that it was written by St. Bernard fo Cllaervaeux.

 

[Sam88]

St Teresa, Doctor of the Church though she may be, did utterly wrong to say that Luther or any other soul was in hell.

Did she actually say that Luther personally was in hell? If she indicated that some Lutherans were in hell I’ve got no problem with that. (Before some Lutheran takes offence needlessly let me add that I have no problem with the idea that some Catholics are probably in hell, that is persons officially Catholic and never formally excommunicated). At the time she wrote, churches were being burned and priests murdered in the name of Lutheranism, and that doesn’t sound like a safe path to heaven.

There is a big difference between that and a statement that a particular named individual is known to be in hell. Perhaps Luther is, perhaps he is in heaven – at any rate I do not know. Perhaps St. Teresa knew or had an opinion, but she could have been mistaken, not having the gift of inerrancy even though she is a saint. Of course, I’m sure she knows now, but I am of course referring to her statements during mortal life.

I’ve no absolute objection to including music written by someone not Catholic in a mass, but I’d certainly rather omit a song so closely associated with anti-Catholicism, even if its contents are not in themselves objectionable. There are plenty of other pieces to choose from.

 

[mdgspencer]

I was only speaking of the absurdity of singing Martin Luther’s hymn at Catholic masses. (And actually, it might be very enlightening to read about his opinions of Catholic mass, which was very negative.) However, personally I love Protestant songs such as “Amazing Grace” (and especially Handel’s “Messiah” too by the way) and think it fine if such a hymn is sung during mass.

…and are you going to ignore the great hymns by John and Charles Wesley also? And Issac Watts? And Robert Robertson? The list of Protestant hymns writers goes on and on. What about the Choral Masses written by Protestants? Hymns and liturgical music is something that we Protestants do very, very well. You are going to have slim fare indeed if you sing only music authored by Roman Catholics.

 

[prv]

The premise of this thread is just plain silly. I will simply point this out, and if it has already been stated then I apologize: “Almost all hymns consist of, primarily, collections of biblical passages set to music.” Now, regardless of who compiled them, does that take away from their valid message? Also, this reminds me of the Donatist heresy that the validity of the sacraments is dependent on the moral integrity of the distributor…

I wish I thought of the Donatist analogy first-----some of the music in Catholic hymnology is good with certain instruments or none, others are decent, some shouldn’t be in there at all. A lot of the “Protestant” music is 100000000% better than a lot of the “Catholic” music.

 

[Image_of_God]

I wish I thought of the Donatist analogy first-----some of the music in Catholic hymnology is good with certain instruments or none, others are decent, some shouldn’t be in there at all. A lot of the “Protestant” music is 100000000% better than a lot of the “Catholic” music.

I beg to differ. I say that some Catholic music is better than Protestant because they are less modern to some extent. Since Protestantism didn’t come into being until the 1500’s, some of the music might be from a Middle Ages and onward format rather than starting from Ancient Times. For example I like the song “Lord of the Dance,” which I believe to be a Protestant song. However, I like songs “Ave Maria,” more not only because of there elegant sounds, but because they reflect the depths of the Catholic Church, while Protestant music, being beautiful that they are, do not reflect the Catholic Church as much but only at a basic level—do not be insulted please.

 

[sandmountainsli]

Reform is in the air!

 

[THutch04]

I’ve always been somewhat jealous of the Lutherans and Methodists because they seemed to get the best hymns! I tend to prefer Wesley to Luther, but like many posters have said, I’d much rather hear those two than some of the OCP music that is around today.

 

[lak611]

I’ve always been somewhat jealous of the Lutherans and Methodists because they seemed to get the best hymns! I tend to prefer Wesley to Luther, but like many posters have said, I’d much rather hear those two than some of the OCP music that is around today.

I agree. I love “Hark the Herald Angels Sing”, “Jesus Christ Is Risen Today”, and “Amazing Love”. I also love “Oh for a Thousand Tongues to Sing”. Plus, Luther wrote in German originally, which I don’t speak. Wesley, an Englishman, wrote in English, so no translation was necessary, and nothing was “lost in translation” which always happens when trying to adapt to another language.

 

[jimmy]

I agree. I love “Hark the Herald Angels Sing”, “Jesus Christ Is Risen Today”, and “Amazing Love”. I also love “Oh for a Thousand Tongues to Sing”. Plus, Luther wrote in German originally, which I don’t speak. Wesley, an Englishman, wrote in English, so no translation was necessary, and nothing was “lost in translation” which always happens when trying to adapt to another language.

Jesus Christ is Risen Today is not a protestant hymn. It was written in the 13th century. All Wesley did was add a verse.

 

[jimmy]

Reform is in the air!

No it isn’t.

 

[jimmy]

…and are you going to ignore the great hymns by John and Charles Wesley also? And Issac Watts? And Robert Robertson? The list of Protestant hymns writers goes on and on. What about the Choral Masses written by Protestants? Hymns and liturgical music is something that we Protestants do very, very well. You are going to have slim fare indeed if you sing only music authored by Roman Catholics.

There is far more depth in Catholic music than there is in the protestant hymns. The protestants have stolen many hymns from Catholics and claimed them as their own. Jesus Christ is Risen Today is one example.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Protestant Churches are the means of salvation though

That’s patently false. Christ and (/as) His Holy Catholic Church are means of salvation; any heretics and schismatics who make it into heaven made it in because of union with the Catholic Church, not their ecclesial communion of choice.

I really think there needs to be some prudential distinction of cases on this question. The premise is not silly at all. Does it make sense to sing the battle cry of the Reformation during Mass? One can answer “no” without saying “every work by any individual who ever drifted into heresy for any portion of his life is out.” I happen to agree that even if the text as now employed may be perfectly okay content, but I hope no one is kidding themselves that a hymn equating the pope with the Turk as enemies from whom the Church needs divine protection is somehow Catholic-friendly. It’s common knowledge that A Mighty Fortress is *the *Protestant hymn; its iconic status is what disqualifies it in my opinion, not simply a connection to a heretic.

 

[mcliffor]

A good question might be, if everything we need for salvation is in the Catholic Church, why do we have to use anything made by protestants? Keep in mind, there’s an entire treasury of BEAUTIFUL Catholic hymns thrown out with Vatican II.

 

[Sola_Roma]

Same goes for Protestants. 90% of what they believe does not contradict Catholic theology.

Hmn…So we can assume that Luther is only 90% on fire in Hell?