** We can conclude from what we know that Luther is in Hell the same way we can conclude that somone is in Heaven. Declaring a Saint is not very different than declaring the damned. **
** It is entirely relevant. That is Church teaching. Outside of Holy Mother Church there is no Salvation. Luther seperated himself from the Truth of Christ by not only denying its infallible doctrines but seperating himself personally from the Church altogether. To be in a state of heresy is to be in a state of mortal sin. Since heresy is…a mortal sin. **
** Again here logic comes into play. We can logically assume that Luther would have refused them…since he completely despised the “Romish Sacramental System” Also…wether or not the Sacrament was available to him is superflous. Everyone is accountable for mortal sins. If he was in a state of mortal sin…well its pretty much been decided for him **
** Again… His sins damned him…not being in the wrong place at the wrong time. **
** A mental or physical illness can loose someone’s consent or culpability concerning any future sins. But he is still accountable for the damage done to his soul when he was in normal physical and mental condition. **
** Well…I defended my reason for being able to judge Luther. It’s up to you wether or not you see my reason as a valid one. But in the context of this discussion…we are trying to figure out if using the music of a heretic burning in hell would be appropriate at the Sacrifice of the Mass. In that sense…it is an important factor of this discussion to decide wether or not Luther is in Hell. **
The ONLY reason the Church declares certain people to be in heaven as Saints is that GOD HIMSELF, through the performance of miracles upon their intercession, makes clear beyond a doubt that that is where they ended up and that he wishes them to be honoured. And he does so because he wants us to have rolemodels for our Christian life.
There are plenty of people whose causes have been put forward who seem to be every bit as virtuous as the canonised, yet without the requisite miracles we cannot dare to pronounce that they are in heaven. For God has not shown us that they are.
He does us absolutely no favours at all in regard to showing us that anyone, Luther, Hitler or any of the usual suspects included, is in Hell.
I can only repeat, you do not know and have no right at all to assume or deduce in any way, that Luther was not repentant at the last. You are not a reader of minds or hearts. You do not know what effect impending death had on him. Plenty of people DO repent of their sins at the end, and remember Christ’s parable of the worker who, though he laboured for an hour, got paid the same as those who had worked all day. The wages of repentance are open to everyone, Luther included.
He stated in his own writings on at least one occasion that he DIDN’T want to separate himself from the Church. You can’t say that at the last he didn’t repent and regret that he had done so.
And you cannot assume that Luther was in his right faculties for even a single day or instant of his life. ALL his sinful behaviours may have been produced by mental or physical illnesses of which you are and he was blissfully unaware. Certainly he had visions and hallucinations, which may indeed have indicated madness, and had them well before the schism if I remember rightly.
And I thought we were deciding whether his music was appropriate to be used in Masses, not whether he was in Hell.
If the state of the soul of a priest celebrating the Mass is irrelevant to its validity or his ability to do so, then I’m sure the state of soul of the musician whose music we use is even less relevant.
And there I’m leaving the debate. You essentially usurp a role and a function that belongs to God alone when you declare individuals to be in Hell, and I’m having no part of it.
) and pull him here on earth to teach some of these new NO parishes what real hymns should sound like.
)
apart from the cringeworthy music 