Lying in self defense vs. killing in self defense

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Aquinas, Kant, Augustine, and others famously held that lying is ALWAYS a sin (though at least in Aquinas’ case not always mortal).

However, I know for a fact that Aquinas and Kant held that killing in self defense is permissible. What gives?

Aquinas’ arguement essentially seems circular. “Lying is always bad because of its very nature lying is bad.” But when it comes to self defense he happily says, “It’s natural to ‘keep things in being’ so murder in self defense is allowed by the double effect principle.”
 
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It might have to do with the fact that not all killing is immoral, whereas all lying is immoral.

The fifth commandment forbids murder, not necessarily killing. For example, it has been constantly understood by the Church that the state has the right to punish heinous crimes by capital punishment. Capital punishment is not akin to murder. The former is just and the latter is unjust.
 
ioannes_pius said:
The fifth commandment forbids murder , not necessarily killing .
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I’m not a Hebrew scholar, but my impression of “bearing false witness” has a strictly legal connotation. Not telling the Nazis where your Jews are is different than lying to condemn someone you hate.

Also, that’s exactly the problem I have with Aquinas’ arguement. “Lying is always bad because all lying is bad”. WHY?
 
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ioannes_pius said:
It might have to do with the fact that not all killing is immoral, whereas all lying is immoral.
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hum!!
killing someone (not an animal) is much more serious than lying! I don’t find your argument very strong.
Exemple: we can lie to save someone live.
A person ask another where is some else, in order to kill him. To answer we don’t know (even if it is a lie) would prevent a murder.
 
Anicette said:
Exemple: we can lie to save someone live.
A person ask another where is some else, in order to kill him. To answer we don’t know (even if it is a lie) would prevent a murder.
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Catholicism does not follow utilitarian ethics. As a counter-example, I can kill one person to prevent millions from dying. To kill that one person would prevent a million murders. Yet this would (correctly) be murder and morally wrong.

The murderer may not have a right to that information in your scenario, but God is Truth. To distort truth, even if it’s to save lives, is immoral.
 
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First, “not telling the Nazis where your jews are” is not necessarily lying.

Second, could you please show me where St. Thomas makes the argument that “Lying is always bad ecause all lying is bad.”?
 
An action that is naturally evil in respect of its genus can by no means be good and lawful, since in order for an action to be good it must be right in every respect: because good results from a complete cause, while evil results from any single defect, as Dionysius assets (Div. Nom. iv). Now a lie is evil in respect of its genus, since it is an action bearing on undue matter. For as words are naturally signs of intellectual acts, it is unnatural and undue for anyone to signify by words something that is not in his mind.
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Question 110 Article 3. Whether lying is always a sin?

Also, your first point is overly pedantic. If I say the Kantian “I know where they are but refuse to tell you” they’ll kill me first then find my friends.
 
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chessnerd321 said:
“Lying is always bad because of its very nature lying is bad.”
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Swearing falsely is a sin, but I think it can be argued from the scripture that lying is not always a sin. Rahab the harlot in Jericho lied to the king when she said the spies had left the city Joshua 2:1-4 but she protects the lives of the spies and ends up protecting her whole family and ultimately being in the line of the Messiah. Second David in 2 Samuel 21:10-15 feigned madness (so lying by action) in Gath and so protected his life. So in the hierarchy of laws murder or suicide is less that lying so in this rare case lying is permissible.
Grace and Peace, Bruce
 
I beg your pardon, but how did you derive “Lying is always bad because all lying is bad” from that paragraph? It literally explains why lying is wrong without saying “Lying is always bad because all lying is bad.”

The main point is that the teaching of the Church is very clear:

“Will a good reason for telling a lie excuse it?

“A. No reason, however good, will excuse the telling of a lie, because a lie is always bad in itself. It is never allowed, even for a good intention to do a thing that is bad in itself.” (Baltimore Catechism, Lesson 34, Q. 1309)
 
From the Catechism:
Legitimate defense

[2263] The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65

[2264] Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.66

[2265] Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
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Lying is bad because it is a mis-use of the faculties God gave us to communicate. It’s the same reasoning behind why fornication is bad (if I understand everything correctly).
 
“Good morning. How are you today?”
“Just fine.”
Did the second person lie if any aspect of his health or mood was less than “fine?”

“Does this outfit make me look fat?”
“Honey, you look great in everything!”
Did the second person lie if the first person does not always look great in everything?
 
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