Lying - Is it Ever Acceptable?

[mosher]

Please, folks, let’s not forget. The ends do not justify the means.

 

[roveau]

If lying to a killer would save your own life would you do it?
If lying would give comfort to a dying friend would you give it?
If lying would convince a suicidal man to live one more day would you tell it?
If lying would save a relationship with the person you loved would you lie to their face?
When, if ever, would you lie, and where do you draw the line?

Recently, I was speaking with someone who says they would not lie under any circumstance. I can honestly see some good reasons to lie and I personally would lie if given most of the above scenarios. At the very least, I feel the saving of a life is a worth a lie.

I’d be looking at those questions about the greater sin in relation to the love of God. So, to be honest:
yes,
yes,
yes,
yes.

I’d confess them at my next confession and seek advice.
Those are all extreme examples though and, the way they are presented in this scenario, it would seem that there would be dire consequences if a lie wasn’t said.

I would try to find ways around things instead of just telling a lie. I don’t like telling lies.

When would I lie? I have to lie often in the work I do. I work with about 40 people who have mild to severe dementia and there are many scenes which play out each day that require lies to avoid extreme behaviours, panic, repeated depressions/sorrows, and even violence. I have spoken to three priests about my work at different times and they all gave me the same advice.

 

[GEddie]

If lying to a killer would save your own life would you do it?
No. Martyrdom is better than sin in any situation.

Being killed is not necessarily “martyrdom.” You might still get Purgatory, etc. Not every Catholic who is subjected to a violent death is a martyr.

If lying would give comfort to a dying friend would you give it?
No. Comforting is a two way ordeal. You comfort them and you are blessed for caring for them. If you lye, you are not comforted or blessed, thus disordered.

Sometimes “the truth” can be painful and unneeded (concerning relationships, or someone else who has died, etc). At the point of death, “you can’t handle the trurth”. necessarily.

If lying would convince a suicidal man to live one more day would you tell it?
No. If anything, the truth would keep a suicidal man from killing himself.

Have you ever seen the film “Jakob the Liar”?

The main character’s friend is about to put his head in a noose; all he needs to not do that is a bit of hope; but as Jakob finds that his information is not fully believed, he is forced to lie about where he got it. Would it have been better to stick to the truth and watch the man die?

Sometimes overcoming a moment of despair is all that is needed.

If lying would save a relationship with the person you loved would you lie to their face?
No. It won’t save a relationship because lying is sinful, therefore not oriented with God

You have a point with this one. Once you lie for a relationship, you are trapped if it ever comes to light. You’d be worse off than before.

ICXC NIKA

 

[MissMarlene]

Now, I might be wrong. But it seems to me that he OP is trying to justify lying at his own wedding ceremony and for that reason he puts up a whole lot of very complicated scenarios…
I suspect in order to soothe his own conscience.

To OP: Don’t do it. Don’t lie. You mother-in-law is not in line with Christianity if she asks someone else to lie.
Why not lie? Well, because your own absolute human dignity is against lying. When you lie, its something that really has a bearing on your character. (ever hear that one lie takes the next?) You will indeed be a liar and shaking off that dirt you have put on your soul will be much harder than you think.
And a marriage that starts with a lie will hardly last. Your new family should accept you as you are, an atheist, and not make you profane what is holy by standing in the church and lying. There is nothing decent about that.

As you can see, Catholics dont agree with lying. Neither did Christ.
Why don’t you prove to us, that one doesn’t have to be a Christian in order to do the right things in this world?

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

I would love to say no, I would not lie. But I have lied. I have lied to avoid spreading gossip. I often have lied, saying I have no knowledge of the mental illness of a family member, when people ask probing questions. I think it is sinful to lie. In these circumstances, I take the easy out- lying- rather than telling people it is not their business.

RE: santa. Is it lying to tell myths, fairy tales and stories? I rather think not.

RE: a Catholic wedding. Why lie? Is the fiance Catholic? If it does not mean anything to you, get the proper permissions and have an honest Catholic wedding. If you are an atheist, you will need a dispensation. Why lie? Who are you lying to? I do not understand.

The examples of military and police etc., are very interesting to me. I wonder if there can be said to be a difference between a person acting for his own purposes rather than the purposes of the state? The examples given are clearly examples of using the end to justify the means- which is not consistent with our theology. But would any of us like to see the practices ended?

The idea that a lie can be justifiable if the asker is not entitled to the information requested is certainly appealing. Does it have basis in theology? It has a certain logical appeal, but I fear it invents a gray area. Does anyone know?

 

[PJM]

=Rascalking;7608398]Ok or not, if I was hiding jews, I’d lie to the Nazis.

If you say it’s never okay to lie, then you have to say that life of Jewish people isn’t that important.

Well put!

Moral Theology permits a “Lesser Evil” option as would apply in the case you mention; and I was trying not to detour the topic.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[RosaryFan]

The idea that a lie can be justifiable if the asker is not entitled to the information requested is certainly appealing. Does it have basis in theology? It has a certain logical appeal, but I fear it invents a gray area. Does anyone know?

I couldn’t say whether or not this has a basis in theology, but the priest in our parish who instructs our RCIA candidates has explained it this way, using the Nazis hunting for hidden Jews as an example.

 

[thistle]

Thistle-I admire you for thinking this. Honestly though, what do you say to a Nazi who asks the “Are there any Jews here?” What if it was a Nazi looking for Catholic priests instead?

I am JUST asking the question. I mean nothing else.

The Church teaching on this is that some people do not have the right to the truth (as in the example you give) and so you either remain silent or can use a technique called mental reservation where certain words are implied (but not said out loud). Your answer could be “There are no Jews here” (“that I would hand over to you” - this part being implied).
The mental reservation technique per se is not an official Church teaching but a well known priest and educator told me it is covered by the part I have highlighted below:

CCC 2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.

Some forum members simply think its okay to lie in such circumstances and it is not a sin. I do not hold that position but neither side can “prove” their case.

 

[lynx]

if they go to hell (out of there own free will) the last thing they will think about is that one “feel good” word. they will still know you lied, making there suffering even worse.

Really? I would imagine if i’m going to hell, at least someone cared about me enough to make some of my good moments peaceful.

i hate making assumptions, but im going to assume you are not a professional shrink or operator at a suicide hot line. they way its actually handed is not how you see it when giving the example

Good guess. The scenario I was thinking about would be someone jumping from a building or something, but I guess over the phone is the same thing. I’m not sure which approach would work best actually…

so, you would lie to your significant other just for your own selfish lust for them.

I might if she asked me if she was fat. Or, maybe i’d give a generic thoughtless response to whether or not a pair of shoes is cute.

 

[lynx]

I think anyone with a little common sense would be able to discern whether or not someone is entitled to certain information.

Common sense differs widely between people based on life experiences. I’m looking for something more concrete, lets look at the examples.

For example, is your next-door-neighbor entitled to know what size boxers your husband wears? But they are entitled to know whether or not you will be having a party with a loud band playing in the back yard until 3am next weekend.

Legally, in my state, they’re not required to any of that but it would be a courtesy. Now, lets say I hate my neighbors. Why should I tell them anything, why not lie?

And if the chashier at the supermarket asks if you have some filets in your coat pocket, she is entitled to know whether or not you do. However, if the cashier asks you how many cavities you’ve had in your lifetime, she is not really entitled to that information.

Again, legally in my state I don’t have to tell them anything. I don’t have to talk to anyone who thinks I might be a criminal. If working at a store entitles you to relevant information about that store, is a bank entitled to know how much money I make per pay period? Is a fast food clerk entitled to know how much I weigh?

Of course you could always say “None of your *%@#! business!”, but I dare you to say that to the Nazi knocking on your door for the Jews hiding in your basement!

You see? Just a little bit of common sense. That’s all you really need.

We all need more common sense

 

[lynx]

Shocking, isn’t it? You do know that this is a Catholic forum, right? And you posted your question in a “theology” section, right? Were you expecting a non-theology answer? We believe in the Bible here, or at least we are supposed to.

The bible says a lot of things, and doesn’t always lead to the same conclusion. If your basis for everything is the bible and nothing else then that’s fine, but even in this thread there are people who follow the bible and believe that lies under some circumstances are beneficial.

 

[lynx]

I’d be looking at those questions about the greater sin in relation to the love of God. So, to be honest:
yes,
yes,
yes,
yes.

I’d confess them at my next confession and seek advice.
Those are all extreme examples though and, the way they are presented in this scenario, it would seem that there would be dire consequences if a lie wasn’t said.

I would try to find ways around things instead of just telling a lie. I don’t like telling lies.

When would I lie? I have to lie often in the work I do. I work with about 40 people who have mild to severe dementia and there are many scenes which play out each day that require lies to avoid extreme behaviours, panic, repeated depressions/sorrows, and even violence. I have spoken to three priests about my work at different times and they all gave me the same advice.

I honestly had to re-read this twice because I was stunned by the response. Out of curiosity, why do you believe the relationship question is a dire circumstance?

Thanks for talking about your work and your reasons for needing to stretch the truth. I was once again shocked that that advice had been given You learn new things every day.

 

[lynx]

Now, I might be wrong. But it seems to me that he OP is trying to justify lying at his own wedding ceremony and for that reason he puts up a whole lot of very complicated scenarios…
I suspect in order to soothe his own conscience.

I need no soothing, but I appreciate the thought I felt that sharing a more personal experience would add to the conversation like roveau. Also, I was encouraged by another member via PM. In this instance I feel completely justified in my actions but I wouldn’t, out of respect for some, be a part of communion. That’s a line too far even for me.

To OP: Don’t do it. Don’t lie. You mother-in-law is not in line with Christianity if she asks someone else to lie.
Why not lie? Well, because your own absolute human dignity is against lying. When you lie, its something that really has a bearing on your character. (ever hear that one lie takes the next?) You will indeed be a liar and shaking off that dirt you have put on your soul will be much harder than you think.

Certainly you don’t want to lie all the time, but I would say in some cases it is beneficial to lie.

And a marriage that starts with a lie will hardly last. Your new family should accept you as you are, an atheist, and not make you profane what is holy by standing in the church and lying. There is nothing decent about that.

I think it’s more about how i’m portrayed to their friends than anything else… I can’t completely ignore the cultural aspects from her family or mine, but maybe I can lessen them.

As you can see, Catholics dont agree with lying. Neither did Christ.

In this thread it depends on who you ask and the situation.

Why don’t you prove to us, that one doesn’t have to be a Christian in order to do the right things in this world?

I might not always make the right decision, but I always try to act for the greater good. This is of course for another thread.

 

[lynx]

RE: a Catholic wedding. Why lie? Is the fiance Catholic? If it does not mean anything to you, get the proper permissions and have an honest Catholic wedding. If you are an atheist, you will need a dispensation. Why lie? Who are you lying to? I do not understand.

If the acts and words are meaningless to me am I lying when I perform them?

 

[MissMarlene]

**lynx;

Certainly you don’t want to lie all the time, but I would say in some cases it is beneficial to lie**.

It often is. Yet it doesn’t make it okay. In my life until now - I live in a free country - I have never been forced to lie. Whenever some lie has slipped out of my mouth it did so due to fear or cowardice… often fear for my own reputation. The immoderate question of another person could of course also make me ill prepared to give a good answer …and being off guard has then reduced my culpability.
But I take the blame for those extremely few times. I have found that when people start to lie they all do it because it’s beneficial to them at the moment (the same reasons why people fornicate and commit other sins too ) but they end up being entangled in lying and the second lie comes much easier than the first.

I think it’s more about how i’m portrayed to their friends than anything else… I can’t completely ignore the cultural aspects from her family or mine, but maybe I can lessen them.

I think it should matter how you portray yourself to yourself and your future spouse. Right now you are planning to portray yourself as someone who will readily lie in order to feel accepted in a group. However, no group that demands lying is worth belonging to.
At the end of the day you are the one who made a liar out of your self. I hope you think twice.

In this thread it depends on who you ask and the situation.

All but one poster here has dealt with life and death scenarios as the only gray zone. Your up-coming wedding is not a life or death scenario. Being asked by a nazi if you are hiding Jews is something you cannot compare with *voluntary and premeditated *lying.

I might not always make the right decision, but I always try to act for the greater good. This is of course for another thread.

A million small evils cannot make up the greater good. I fear you are on a very slippery slope my friend, willing to come and make such brain gymnastics in order to be excused in a action which I think you know is below your human dignity.

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

If the acts and words are meaningless to me am I lying when I perform them?

Certainly. But the only act which you would have to perform is making your vows. If there is a mass (there probably won’t be, there rarely is for mixed marriages) you can observe, without lying. If there is a service, you can likewise observe the prayers without praying and then make your vows. There is no necessary lie, unless you cannot honestly make the vows. But that is another issue entirely. There is a certain flexibility with the vows, though less than outside the Church. I feel certain that you can find a wording which would not be a lie. If you are honest with all parties, I do not see why you cannot have your wedding. The biggest impediment would be getting a dispensation, which is required for all Catholics marrying non-Christians. But you can likely get one. And, if you cannot, than you can tell your mother-in-law that you tried in all honesty. The actual wedding part of the service or Mass is between you and your spouse. Everyone else present, priest or deacon included, is there to witness. You make your vows, she makes hers. You marry each other- no one marries you. (My parents asked the priest to step off the altar to emphasize that point. He was surprised, but he obliged them.) Thus, you do not even need to recognize, or pretend to recognize, the authority of the priest/deacon beyond what is granted to him by law. (He will sign your marriage license.)

I am not an authority on the subject, but I did marry a non-Catholic in my Catholic Church.

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

The Church teaching on this is that some people do not have the right to the truth (as in the example you give) and so you either remain silent or can use a technique called mental reservation where certain words are implied (but not said out loud). Your answer could be “There are no Jews here” (“that I would hand over to you” - this part being implied).
The mental reservation technique per se is not an official Church teaching but a well known priest and educator told me it is covered by the part I have highlighted below:

CCC 2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.

Some forum members simply think its okay to lie in such circumstances and it is not a sin. I do not hold that position but neither side can “prove” their case.

Do you not think it proves your case that the Church does teach clearly that ends do not justify means in any circumstance? You can never do evil, not even to accomplish good. That seems to me to prove your case.

This certainly seems more consistent than the position that sometimes lying is OK. But your example about the Jews, reads like a lie. How is the second part of the sentence implied? It is unspoken, but not implied. I guess my problem here is that I am not very clever on the spot. So, while in theory I would prefer to use discreet language rather than an outright lie, I am not Miss Manners and do not always have to right words on the tip of my tongue. Silence is an option, of course, but then I have to either give offense or make some excuse.

The Nazi example is a common example because it is a good one. Who wouldn’t lie to save the lives of Jews hiding in their house? In theory, I would hope that I could find words which would effectively put the Nazis off without lying, but I suspect that in practice I would lie.

I am a little uncomfortable too with the distinction here made between language meant to deceive and an outright lie. If you can avoid the question, that seems appropriate. That would seem to me to what is meant by discreet language in the CC. But isn’t is a lie if the words you say are technically true but you intend them to deceive, or if you leave out some word which changes the meaning of what you say entirely? Silence or evasion seem like the best options, but neither would be realistic in the example about the Nazi.

 

[Contarini]

Christopher Tollefsen has recently written an article that I think addresses the question very well. He essentially agrees with the poster who said (tongue-in-cheek) that you could tell the Nazi at the door “None of your ---- business,” and he argues that this might in fact be the most effective as well as the most courageous and honest response.

In response to the question about whether one should lie to “save a relationship,” I’ll only say that a relationship based on a lie isn’t a real relationship.

And while questions like “do these clothes make me look fat” are certainly land mines, I do not address them (in my own married life) through lies. It’s better to make someone a bit upset than to establish a pattern in which your spouse can’t trust what you say. So, for instance, if I ask my wife whether food I cook tastes good (I do most of the cooking), I want her to answer honestly, because then I not only know how to improve but I also know that when she enthuses about my cooking she really means it. Otherwise words come to mean nothing.

Watering down the truth, expressing it diplomatically, keeping silent on certain things–these are OK. Lies aren’t.

Edwin

 

[Materdon]

Yes, the commandment says “Do not lie.” Honestly, I would do it to save a life. The only black and white is in your everyday life. I would not lie, steal, cheat, covet, etc in my every day life. But those questions are not everyday questions.

Jesus’ command to “Love your neighbor as yourself” trumps ALL. Yes, I would lie to save a life. Yes, I would lie to save some one in danger of being killed (including abortion!). Yes, I would lie to save my children’s lives. I would and I wouldn’t feel a second of regret or self doubt. The preservation of life trumps the ‘not-lying-no-matter-what’ nonsense.

When you do this for “the least of my brothers, you do it for Me.” Would you lie to save Jesus’ life? I ABSOLUTELY WOULD! Saving a life IS saving Jesus’ life. There absolutely are curcumstances where lying would not only be necessary but also want Jesus would have you do. Period.

+JMJ+

 

[Ender]

This topic is being discussed over at InsideCatholic. John Zmirak wrote about it last week and again this week and has a link to a fairly lengthy article by Janet Smith with a very in depth analysis of Aquinas’ position on the subject.

insidecatholic.com/feature/up-from-literalism.html

The short answer is this: Aquinas asks and answers the question of the “Nazi at the door” and says that lying is a sin even in this case:

*Therefore it is not lawful to tell a lie in order to deliver another from any danger whatever. Nevertheless it is lawful to hide the truth prudently, by keeping it back, as Augustine says *(Summa Theologica II/II 110, 3 ad 4)

The Church appears not to have fully resolved the question, as Zmirak points out:

… the editors of the new Catholic Catechism, … published a draft that included a development of this teaching. It redefined “lying” as telling untruths to someone “with a right to the truth.” The revised edition removed that exception without condemning it …

Aquinas condemned every distortion of the literal truth for whatever reason, which would include teaching children about Santa Claus and telling your wife “No, hun, that dress doesn’t make you look fat” even though it contains more material than the mainsail of the USS Constitution. Professor Smith’s article makes a good case that Church teaching on this subject may still be in development.

Ender