Lying is OK sometimes...?

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MarianD

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*The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. **The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons *for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it. - CCC 2488-2489 (emphasis mine)

Add that with what it says a few paragraphs earlier…

The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity. - CCC 2484 (emphasis mine)

And we can conclude that lying is OK sometimes, if being silent is absolutely not an option. Not to use a tired example (but I’ll use it anyway), if a Nazi knocks on your door asking if there are any Jews in the area, and you’re hiding a Jewish family in your own home, then you’d be able to lie as per the Catechism paragraphs 2489 and it wouldn’t be a venial or mortal sin if simply remaining silent isn’t a viable option (which it isn’t in this case).

If someone doesn’t deserve to know the truth or will use it to harm you, themselves, or others, then silence is the best way to conceal the truth. If silence is not possible, then a lie will not be sinful. Am I right?

I can’t fathom someone suffering in Purgatory or even Hell because he/she lied to a Nazi about there being Jews in his/her house. Many priests did this in fact, but I’m sure most of you already know how much Catholics helped the persecuted during WWII.

But note how it says “Concrete situations”. What about when telling jokes or playing a prank (like a Scare Tactics style prank, not a prank that actually harms people)? Is lying a sin here?
 
MarianD said:
The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. **The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons **for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it. - CCC 2488-2489 (emphasis mine)

Add that with what it says a few paragraphs earlier…

The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity. - CCC 2484 (emphasis mine)

And we can conclude that lying is OK sometimes, if being silent is absolutely not an option. Not to use a tired example (but I’ll use it anyway), if a Nazi knocks on your door asking if there are any Jews in the area, and you’re hiding a Jewish family in your own home, then you’d be able to lie as per the Catechism paragraphs 2489 and it wouldn’t be a venial or mortal sin if simply remaining silent isn’t a viable option (which it isn’t in this case).

If someone doesn’t deserve to know the truth or will use it to harm you, themselves, or others, then silence is the best way to conceal the truth. If silence is not possible, then a lie will not be sinful. Am I right?

I can’t fathom someone suffering in Purgatory or even Hell because he/she lied to a Nazi about there being Jews in his/her house. Many priests did this in fact, but I’m sure most of you already know how much Catholics helped the persecuted during WWII.

But note how it says “Concrete situations”. What about when telling jokes or playing a prank (like a Scare Tactics style prank, not a prank that actually harms people)? Is lying a sin here?
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Telling them whatever you need to tell them to go away without fear of sinning.

Consider that Jew-hunting Nazis do not have a right to the truth, and that they know that any Catholic who stands silent or answers with a negative pregnant or plays word games is definitely hiding Jews.

Also consider that by misleading the Nazis, you’ll prevent at least one of them, on this occasion, from a mortal sin.
 
MarianD said:
So…am I right?
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This is a question that comes up a lot, and it’s never really adequately answered. I wish there was more clarity on this, as this is a very important issue. I have a meeting with my parish pastor this coming Tuesday, and I’ll ask him about this, though I doubt we’ll get any closer to the answer. Keep searching, MarianD, and if you find answer, please PM me!
 
The Church teaching:

CCC 2482 “A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.” The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: “You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”

CCC 2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.

CCC 2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

CCC 2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.

CCC 2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.
 
^ You can’t quote the Catechism in order to disprove my quotes from the Catechism.

Lying is a sin, yes. The Catechism says this about lying in general. Then, 2 paragraphs later, it mentions “concrete situations” (such as the well-known Nazi example) and then seems to permit us to lie in those situations. And in one of the paragraphs both you and I quoted, it states that the gravity of a lie is measured by the circumstances. This seems to imply that a lie would carry zero culpability if said in one of those “concrete situations”.
 
MarianD said:
^ You can’t quote the Catechism in order to disprove my quotes from the Catechism.

Lying is a sin, yes. The Catechism says this about lying in general. Then, 2 paragraphs later, it mentions “concrete situations” (such as the well-known Nazi example) and then seems to permit us to lie in those situations. And in one of the paragraphs both you and I quoted, it states that the gravity of a lie is measured by the circumstances. This seems to imply that a lie would carry zero culpability if said in one of those “concrete situations”.
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or maybe you define a lie as a falsehood told to someone who is entitled to the truth, which excludes a spectrum of people from nazis to poker opponents.
 
Reservoir_Dog said:
or maybe you define a lie as a falsehood told to someone who is entitled to the truth, which excludes a spectrum of people from nazis to poker opponents.
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I actually love that definitions, and it would clear everything up.
 
Reservoir_Dog said:
So, as you see it, putting the nazis off Ann Frank’s trail is a sin?
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Of course it is just as murder is a crime whether pre meditated or accidental just the punishment is different. Lying to save another human being is much different then lying to gain some personal advantage.
 
ignatius777 said:
Of course it is just as murder is a crime whether pre meditated or accidental just the punishment is different. Lying to save another human being is much different then lying to gain some personal advantage.
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There’s no such thing as “accidental murder” in the law, since murder is typically defined as an intentional act. There are some technical distinctions beyond the scope of this thread (unless you want to go there), but “accidental” I’m reading as “negligent”. (there is negligent homicide, but since we’re talking about intentionally misleading the nazi Jew hunters, the analogy to negligent homicide-type crimes fails).

Your position (correct me if I’m wrong) is every statement short of the truth is a lie and that every lie is a sin and that misleading the nazis to save the hidden Jews is a sin, but a sin that the Church approves?

Claiming that sometimes sinning is ok and sometimes its not seems to me to be a serious mistake in reading the CCC.

My position is that since the nazis have no right to the true whereabouts of the Jews, misleading them is not a lie, and not a sin.
 
Reservoir_Dog said:
Telling them whatever you need to tell them to go away without fear of sinning.

Consider that Jew-hunting Nazis do not have a right to the truth, and that they know that any Catholic who stands silent or answers with a negative pregnant or plays word games is definitely hiding Jews.

Also consider that by misleading the Nazis, you’ll prevent at least one of them, on this occasion, from a mortal sin.
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Exactly. Since a Jew hunting Nazi has no moral right to the information that you are harboring Jews in your attic, when asked if “Are there Jews here?” you can respond “No” meaning that there are no Jews here on the porch where you and Mr. Gestapo are talking.

Such is not a lie, as you WERE truthful, and provided what truth they are morally entitled to know.
 
Reservoir_Dog said:
There’s no such thing as “accidental murder” in the law, since murder is typically defined as an intentional act. There are some technical distinctions beyond the scope of this thread (unless you want to go there), but “accidental” I’m reading as “negligent”. (there is negligent homicide, but since we’re talking about intentionally misleading the nazi Jew hunters, the analogy to negligent homicide-type crimes fails).

Your position (correct me if I’m wrong) is every statement short of the truth is a lie and that every lie is a sin and that misleading the nazis to save the hidden Jews is a sin, but a sin that the Church approves?

Claiming that sometimes sinning is ok and sometimes its not seems to me to be a serious mistake in reading the CCC.

My position is that since the nazis have no right to the true whereabouts of the Jews, misleading them is not a lie, and not a sin.
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Yes lying is a sin that is my position but to say that I believe the church “approves” of a lie that misleads nazis looking to kill jews (keeping with your analogy) is erroneous since I never claimed that. I maintained that punishment for those sins of lying will be different then those that gain a personal advantage for the person who lies. Sin in any form seperates us from God but sins like crimes have different levels of punishment given the specific circumstances but still punishable.
 
Brendan said:
Exactly. Since a Jew hunting Nazi has no moral right to the information that you are harboring Jews in your attic, when asked if “Are there Jews here?” you can respond “No” meaning that there are no Jews here on the porch where you and Mr. Gestapo are talking.

Such is not a lie, as you WERE truthful, and provided what truth they are morally entitled to know.
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(emphasis added)

I don’t think even that kind of justification is necessary. Assume that Jew hunters also read the CCC and are adept at friendly interrogation and know what a negative pregnant denial is, and nothing short of deception ("they are not on this property and I have no idea where they are) will make them leave. If they’re not entitled to the truth, they can’t be lied to.

There are many more mundane examples of misrepresentations that aren’t a sin by any stretch of the imagination. Commercial negotiations where the buyer doesn’t disclose the highest price he’d pay when directly asked by the seller, games like poker where verbal misrepresentations are an art form …
 
ignatius777 said:
Yes lying is a sin that is my position but to say that I believe the church “approves” of a lie that misleads nazis looking to kill jews (keeping with your analogy) is erroneous since I never claimed that. I maintained that punishment for those sins of lying will be different then those that gain a personal advantage for the person who lies. Sin in any form seperates us from God but sins like crimes have different levels of punishment given the specific circumstances but still punishable.
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I’m trying to pin down your thinking. In my example, you believe that someone who directed the nazis away from hidden Jews has separated himself from God?

You don’t believe the nazis are entitled to the truth, do you?
 
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