Lynndie England gets 3-year sentence

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vern humphrey:
Karposki was the commanding general – her claims about being a scapegoat show she hasn’t admitted wrongdoing, nor shown remorse for her failings. I think she should be court-matrialled and given the maximum punishment, pour encourage les autres.
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Oh, no! I wouldn’t go that far - the phrase you used was the one to justify sending scores of French poilus before firing squads for refusing to go forward to almost certain death in the meat grinder of war on the Western Front in World War I. Abu Ghaib wasn’t that bad! 🙂

I’d settle for Karposki being court-martialed, stripped of her rank, and getting some jail time.
 
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Neo1:
For me, this sentence will only be fair if she serves the full 3 years and doesnt end up with time served for good behavior and actually only gets something like 1.5
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Military prisons don’t work like that. 3 years = 3 years.
 
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b_justb:
Military prisons don’t work like that. 3 years = 3 years.
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There can be reductions on appeal. An officer I knew who was sentenced to 10 years for stabbing his wife’s lover wound up doing about 5 years. This was back in the early 70s, however, and things may have changed since then.
 
Arba Sicula:
Oh, no! I wouldn’t go that far - the phrase you used was the one to justify sending scores of French poilus before firing squads for refusing to go forward to almost certain death in the meat grinder of war on the Western Front in World War I. Abu Ghaib wasn’t that bad! 🙂

I’d settle for Karposki being court-martialed, stripped of her rank, and getting some jail time.
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No, the phrase I used was coined by Voltaire to describe the execution of Sir John Byng, of the (British) Royal Navy, who failed to relieve Minorca.

Byng, in his defense claimed that all the suggested actions he could have taken were in violation of “Fighting Instructions” the regulations that goverened fleet actions.

In his honor, I created the Byng Award – which is given for the tenacious defense of bureaucratic rules in the face of overwhelming common sense.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
 
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Karin:
Good for her…hope she learns something in those 3 years.
I have to agree with Vern …all should be held accountable!
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Yeah, she’ll most likely get more time than the murderous venom she was “abusing”. I hope they learn their lesson. Honestly, I believe those muslim men, based on the behavior of other muslim terrorist men and their relationship with American women, actually enjoyed the entertainment provided by Lynndie. Don’t be so disillusioned from reality people!
 
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patshea1128:
Yeah, she’ll most likely get more time than the murderous venom she was “abusing”. I hope they learn their lesson.
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Ms England ‘made up’ her job description. This behaviour is counterproductive in a military group.
 
Arba Sicula:
As you know, officers don’t get court-martialed or even relieved of duty for following the rules. Maybe no glory, no medals, or no promotions, but no punishment either.
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Tell that to Admiral Byng. He knelt in front of a Marine firing squad.
 
vern humphrey:
Tell that to Admiral Byng. He knelt in front of a Marine firing squad.
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I was thinking more of our own Armed Forces in modern times.
 
Arba Sicula:
I was thinking more of our own Armed Forces in modern times.
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I know of at least one general who went to prison in the Marindem Scandal.
 
Arba Sicula said:
???
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The Marindem Corporation was formed by three senior NCOs – one of whom was William O. Woolridge, the Sergeant Major of the Army. They controlled slot machines in NCO clubs overseas, and made a bundle – with the knowledge the Provost Marshal General of the Army – who was one of those who went to prison.
 
vern humphrey:
The Marindem Corporation was formed by three senior NCOs – one of whom was William O. Woolridge, the Sergeant Major of the Army. They controlled slot machines in NCO clubs overseas, and made a bundle – with the knowledge the Provost Marshal General of the Army – who was one of those who went to prison.
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Thanks. I never heard of that incident. To be sure, though, the General was court-martialed for other than following the rules. 🙂
 
Arba Sicula:
Thanks. I never heard of that incident. To be sure, though, the General was court-martialed for other than following the rules. 🙂
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If Byng were in the American Navy or Army, the charge would be “Failure to do his utmost to encounter, engage, capture or destroy any enemy forces, vessels, aircraft or any other thing which it was his duty to so encounter, engage, capture or destroy.”

Since he was sent out to lift the seige of Minorca, it clearly was his duty to do so – and he was clearly guilty, regulations or no regulations.
 
vern humphrey:
Yes, the officers should be tried – right up to and including the Commanding General.
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Since there is no evidence anyone higher up knew anything about this more or less ordered it why are you so anxious to bust the careers of men who have served our country.?
 
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estesbob:
Since there is no evidence anyone higher up knew anything about this more or less ordered it why are you so anxious to bust the careers of men who have served our country.?
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A commander is responsible for all his or her men do or fail to do. It’s that simple.

I’ve commanded four companies in my career, two of them in combat, and know that’s the only way it works. When you say, “there is no evidence anyone higher up knew anything about this” that is a damning statement – because it was the commanding general’s duty to know everything that happened under her command.
 
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estesbob:
Since there is no evidence anyone higher up knew anything about this more or less ordered it why are you so anxious to bust the careers of men who have served our country.?
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It is their job to know what is going on. This is exactly what went wrong with the Arone Somalia affair and the Canadian Queen’s Own Airbourne Regiment. The military inquiry into the conduct of the principals found that Gen de Chastelain created a culture of ‘not knowing’ from himself down the chain of command so that it became acceptable to ‘not know.’ This was unfitting for someone in command.

From The Report of the Somalia Commission of Inquiry:
For present purposes, we note that many of the failings of the senior leadership, with the exception of specific failings relating to duties that cannot be delegated, can be characterized as inappropriate control and supervision.

Accordingly, although Gen de Chastelain is ultimately responsible for the failures that occurred below him, he is also responsible for what he did or did not do in allowing the failing to occur. In this respect, Gen de Chastelain’s primary failure may be characterized as one of nonexistent control and indifferent supervision.

Quite simply, at many points in his testimony, Gen (ret) de Chastelain appeared quite prepared to assume that all would have worked out if only because of the successes of his previous achievements and because of the trust he placed in the quality of those selected as his subordinates.

This benign neglect, or unquestioning reliance, became so common under Gen de Chastelain’s command that it became everyday practice throughout the chain of command below him.
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vern humphrey:
A commander is responsible for all his or her men do or fail to do. It’s that simple.

I’ve commanded four companies in my career, two of them in combat, and know that’s the only way it works. When you say, “there is no evidence anyone higher up knew anything about this” that is a damning statement – because it was the commanding general’s duty to know everything that happened under her command.
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The commanding general DID find our what was going on and started an investiagtion long before the press got involved. Those who commited the crimes have been arrested and either are awaiting trial or have already been convicted. The idea that the commanding genreal should have known what was going on one night in a prison is nonsnese. as soon as he found out he acted and acted quickly.
 
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estesbob:
The commanding general DID find our what was going on and started an investiagtion long before the press got involved.
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You are in error. Gen Karposki, who commanded the prison, did nothing. She hardly ever inspected the prison she was in charge of, and when the abuses were uncovered, she claimed that the information had been kept from her and that during her “inspections,” she was kept away from the areas where the abuse was taking place.

No excuse. No excuse whatever. She was in command. Even if she were just a Captain and not a General, she was still the Officer Commanding, and had a duty to command.
 
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estesbob:
The commanding general DID find our what was going on and started an investiagtion long before the press got involved. Those who commited the crimes have been arrested and either are awaiting trial or have already been convicted. The idea that the commanding genreal should have known what was going on one night in a prison is nonsnese. as soon as he found out he acted and acted quickly.
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Brigadier General Karposki did not start an investigation. Nor did she take the normal measures any commanding general should take to be aware of what was happening in her command.
 
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