Mad or mystic?.........Wake Up!..........

[BarbaraTherese]

Here is an interesting essay I found on a website Spiritwalk Teachers containing sections of the book "Awareness" of Anthony de Mello’s.

Go to:…

[5. Are We Talking About Psychology in this Spirituality Course](http://www.geocities.com/~spiritwalk/demelloawareness.htm#psych & spirit)

Anthony de Mello – “Awareness” …the following quotation is from the above essay:…

"because when you’re on
the verge of going insane, raving mad, you’re about to become either a
*psychotic or a mystic. *

That’s what the mystic is, the opposite of the
*lunatic."*WAKE UP!

 

[contemplative]

CONCERNING THE WRITINGS OF
FATHER ANTHONY DE MELLO, SJ

But already in certain passages in these early works and to a greater degree in his later publications, one notices a progressive distancing from the essential contents of the Christian faith. In place of the revelation which has come in the person of Jesus Christ, he substitutes an intuition of God without form or image, to the point of speaking of God as a pure void. To see God it is enough to look directly at the world. Nothing can be said about God; the only knowing is unknowing. To pose the question of his existence is already nonsense. This radical apophaticism leads even to a denial that the Bible contains valid statements about God. The words of Scripture are indications which serve only to lead a person to silence. In other passages, the judgment on sacred religious texts, not excluding the Bible, becomes even more severe: they are said to prevent people from following their own common sense and cause them to become obtuse and cruel. Religions, including Christianity, are one of the major obstacles to the discovery of truth. This truth, however, is never defined by the author in its precise contents. For him, to think that the God of one’s own religion is the only one is simply fanaticism. “God” is considered as a cosmic reality, vague and omnipresent; the personal nature of God is ignored and in practice denied. Read more

 

[springbreeze]

Dear friend

I would have thought that insanity and mysticism are two very different things! Thank you to the last poster for providing the information from the Vatican regarding the writer of such material, this is all the information I need.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[BarbaraTherese]

CONCERNING THE WRITINGS OF
FATHER ANTHONY DE MELLO, SJ

But already in certain passages in these early works and to a greater degree in his later publications, one notices a progressive distancing from the essential contents of the Christian faith. In place of the revelation which has come in the person of Jesus Christ, he substitutes an intuition of God without form or image, to the point of speaking of God as a pure void. To see God it is enough to look directly at the world. Nothing can be said about God; the only knowing is unknowing. To pose the question of his existence is already nonsense. This radical apophaticism leads even to a denial that the Bible contains valid statements about God. The words of Scripture are indications which serve only to lead a person to silence. In other passages, the judgment on sacred religious texts, not excluding the Bible, becomes even more severe: they are said to prevent people from following their own common sense and cause them to become obtuse and cruel. Religions, including Christianity, are one of the major obstacles to the discovery of truth. This truth, however, is never defined by the author in its precise contents. For him, to think that the God of one’s own religion is the only one is simply fanaticism. “God” is considered as a cosmic reality, vague and omnipresent; the personal nature of God is ignored and in practice denied. Read more

Hi there Contemplative…I have not read all of Anthony de Mello’s writings by far and some things in what I have actually ead, I do not agree with other statements of his I do agree with. I am entirely selective in my reading … because I quote someone, does not then necessarily mean that I agree with every statement he/she made.

I see that your link comes from a Vatican site, which is of immense interest to me and certainly a very reliable source. Thank you very much for the link which when time permits I shall go back and read. Thank you.

Barb
South Australia

 

[BarbaraTherese]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

I would have thought that insanity and mysticism are two very different things! Thank you to the last poster for providing the information from the Vatican regarding the writer of such material, this is all the information I need.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

Hi Springbreeze good to catch up with you again!

You are quite correct to my mind, insanity and mysticism are two entirely different worlds. Generally speaking and as it were there are three different consciousnesses. The common including the neurotic and also interestingly the psychopath who is not insane. The insane who perceive reality in their own way which the psychological and psychiatric sciences label psychosis and are ill. And the mystic or contemplative consciousness. All three levels of consciousness all have as it were sub headings. Certainly aspects of the Dark Night do resemble the onset of mental illness…resemblance only. Not precisely the same as.

Actually I did not and do not read de Mello for only one very literally i.e. I can see what he is getting at. I wont go into matters any further than that, because I think that the article can speak for itself if one does not take every word literally. De Mello does not write usually proclaiming universal concepts, he gives clues and just his style of teaching or presentation. He presents something to think about which is why at times he challenges one to really think. Of course that is only my opinion. I too am interested in reading what The Vatican has to say about de Mello and not infallibly yet being The Vatican I would consider for myself certainly informed opinion. I do have a copy of de Mello’s “Heart of The Enlightened” and for sure there is much in there that I would never quote (i.e. I disagree with what is stated). Nevertheless gold is wherever it is found/“what good can come out of Nazareth”.

I had read de Mello some of his work long before The Vatican pronounced what they have, or to my knowledge this is so as I had never heard he was frowned up until well after his death.

Regards, Barb

Edit: I have just started to read The Vatican statement on de Mello - here is the opening paragraph which is not dismissive of de Mello at all, in fact is affirming of him. The Vatican also states in the statement “common sense” i.e needs to be read with common sense.
"he Indian Jesuit priest, Father Anthony de Mello (1931-1987) is well known due to his numerous publications which, translated into various languages, have been widely circulated in many countries of the world, though not all of these texts were authorized by him for publication. His works, which almost always take the form of brief stories, contain some valid elements of oriental wisdom. These can be helpful in achieving self-mastery, in breaking the bonds and feelings that keep us from being free, and in approaching with serenity the various vicissitudes of life. Especially in his early writings, Father de Mello, while revealing the influence of Buddhist and Taoist spiritual currents, remained within the lines of Christian spirituality. In these books, he treats the different kinds of prayer: petition, intercession and praise, as well as contemplation of the mysteries of the life of Christ, etc.** "**

Certainly I found what is in bold above in de Mello’s work “Awareness” altho still asking common sense with a read, which is what de Mello presupposes a reader will do if one reads the whole work. What I originally quoted starting this thread is drawn from his work “Awareness” and I should think one of his early works, because he often refers to The Gospels in an entirely affirming, recommending and enlightened manner. I found nothing doctrinally questionable in the whole work, not so some of his other works I have read and entirely my opinion. We are all coming from our perspectives and attitudes.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Here is an extract from The Vatican statement on de Mello:

" they are said to prevent people from following their own common sense and cause them to become obtuse and cruel. "

I would never hold, never! that anything should lead us from common sense and cause one to become obtuse and cruel, and if I found I was being led into those areas, I would abandon whatever like a truly hot cake and if I felt another was led into those areas, then I would probably challenge them dependant on circumstances i.e. the whole picture. Certainly if someone was by nature rigid and cruel and lacking in common sense, I will simply state I cannot agree with them rather than challenge possibly since such types of people’s prime interest more often than not is not the truth of the matter but their own rigid cruel and lacking common sense position. Something like that . I would hope that any position I present as mine anyway is not transferred into the ridiculous which is a complete lack of common sense.

De Mello does state in the quote with which I began this thread that insanity and mysticism are worlds apart. This begs the question since he also states when one feels one is going mad that one is about to become a lunatic or a mystic that one ponder, have a think. He is not proclaiming a universal concept but presenting something for his reader to think about…universal concepts are not his style of teaching or even it seems to me spirutal direction. Interestingly the work I do contest “Heart of the Englightened” is not, I found out when I bought the book from de Mello’s hand by rather reports of what he had said and thus questionable entirely.
Interestingly at times the mystics themselves are read literally and without applying common sense I tend to think.

Regards, Barb

 

[Josephene]

Have not read much of De Mello yet would have to agree with

statements of the Vatican site ; as far as I can tell , the

emphasis seems to be sort of detach oneself from our humanity

by being detached from all feelings - which can make one cruel !

The joy of a personal relationship with The Lord , with The Father

seem to be obliterated …no need for mercyor compassion !

atleast one person that I know of who consider himself enlightened and

very 'detached ’ when it comes to other person’s issues has also ,become needy and whiny when he himself

felt ‘detached’ at the time his percieved needs - did not have The

Lord , in His humanity and Divinity, to turn to !

Newage and making gods of oneself do not seem very diffrent !

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Josephene:

Have not read much of De Mello yet would have to agree with

statements of the Vatican site ; as far as I can tell , the

emphasis seems to be sort of detach oneself from our humanity

by being detached from all feelings - which can make one cruel !

The joy of a personal relationship with The Lord , with The Father

seem to be obliterated …no need for mercyor compassion !

atleast one person that I know of who consider himself enlightened and

very 'detached ’ when it comes to other person’s issues has also ,become needy and whiny when he himself

felt ‘detached’ at the time his percieved needs - did not have The

Lord , in His humanity and Divinity, to turn to !

Newage and making gods of oneself do not seem very diffrent !

Hi there Josephene…lovely tag! St. Joseph is one of my favourite saints!

Perhaps you did not catch up with what I quoted from the Vatican site which opens their comments re de Mello, for he has much to say that is entirely enlightening, valid, spiritually and doctrinally sound and I found most helpful, altho that does not imply that I found everything in de Mello so. The Vatican DOES NOT dismiss de Mello entirely as a read from my following quote reveals, in fact is something of a recommendation of de Mello by the Vatican. They do not dismiss his works entirely.

"The Indian Jesuit priest, Father Anthony de Mello (1931-1987) is well known due to his numerous publications which, translated into various languages, have been widely circulated in many countries of the world, though not all of these texts were authorized by him for publication

. His works, which almost always take the form of brief stories, contain some valid elements of oriental wisdom. These can be helpful in achieving self-mastery, in breaking the bonds and feelings that keep us from being free, and in approaching with serenity the various vicissitudes of life. Especially in his early writings, Father de Mello, while revealing the influence of Buddhist and Taoist spiritual currents, remained within the lines of Christian spirituality. In these books, he treats the different kinds of prayer: petition, intercession and praise, as well as contemplation of the mysteries of the life of Christ, etc.** "** *

Thank you for the comments Josephene and your slant on de Mello’s works.
True detachment is not at all meant to lead to any sort of cruelty or harshness in fact quite to the contrary…I may feel depressed or angry for some reason, detachment from such negative emotions while acknowledging them and owning them which de Mello does recommend allows one to act not react…detachment does not mean disown. Not only this detachment from negative emotions means that I do not ‘feed’ them but rather disarm them…as I said in another Post de Mello does almost take for granted his reader will read his works with common sense. Certainly in his work “Awareness” which from what I have read anyway is the best I have read of him, he quotes The Gospel and at times the classical mystical works in a most affirming and insightful way.
I did once read a most beautiful little book titled “Spring Comes Barefoot” written by a Poor Clare who prior to entry had been in the American Air Force. She writes that she decided to develop detachment and set about it but pretty soon found she did not care about anything. That is not the detachment that de Mello recommends at all and to insight such to me anyway and as fallible as I am is a misreading of de Mello from some of what I have read anyway. Personally I disagree with perhaps a lot of de Mello while agreeing with much more.
I think the portion from “Awareness” that I did quote opening this thread or rather stated the link for was spiritually and doctrinally quite sound. Perhaps there was something in particular in that link that you disagreed with? We could hash it out and find out if we can find agreement?

De Mello does not at all recommend that we become detached from that level that is entirely positive such as joy, peace, compassion, understanding etc…such is to fly in the face of sheer good common sense and/or perhaps a misreading of his writing. Certainly however if I am visiting a person who is very depressed and I am bubbling with joy it would be wise to detach myself from that joy and invest in empathy and understanding, compassion.

Thank you for your comments and particular insights.

Regards - Barb
South Australia

 

[Josephene]

Thank you Barb ; didn’t mean to be too critical and hadn’t read the Vatican site

It is just that we are facing the new age value sustem at many levels and whatever time I have , have to use it with good solid authors , esp. Scriptures ;(and I like books such as He and I by Gabrielle Bossis , books by Rev. Fr. Cantalamessa .)
Know there are even now Jesuit priests who conduct DeMello retreats and there must be some good points in his writings ; also remember how one drop of poison can damage a good glass of pure water ; my concern is the self and one’s feelings are given the idolatrous position of prime place instead of the The Lord , what He has done - the best way to get out of the bondage of the self …
'Love your God with all your heart ’

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Josephene:

Thank you Barb ; didn’t mean to be too critical and hadn’t read the Vatican site

It is just that we are facing the new age value sustem at many levels and whatever time I have , have to use it with good solid authors , esp. Scriptures ;(and I like books such as He and I by Gabrielle Bossis , books by Rev. Fr. Cantalamessa .)
Know there are even now Jesuit priests who conduct DeMello retreats and there must be some good points in his writings ; also remember how one drop of poison can damage a good glass of pure water ; my concern is the self and one’s feelings are given the idolatrous position of prime place instead of the The Lord , what He has done - the best way to get out of the bondage of the self …
'Love your God with all your heart ’

Hi Josephene…I could not agree more that all the words, knowledge and wisdom in creation cannot equal the desire to “Love God with all your heart” as you stated in your final sentence above. From an ardent striving to love God and accomplish His Will and to love neighbour for the love of God will flow all things and all manner of things. There is nothing more.

Spritual writings are only guides to loving God and neighbour and any such writings should never be taken out of the context of Church doctrine and teaching, nor common sense and charity.

Thanks for the comments above Josephene. What excellent good example you have given in shifting your original opinion and stating such - that takes a very big person humanly and spiritually to my mind. As well as a humble person. Also a person with an open mind. Great example Josephene, witness.

I do agree with you that with some of the things I have read de Mello wrote are questionable and as The Vatican site does state…sad because hence the good effect he can have is cancelled out by suspicion of all his writings from his few ‘bad apples’. Sad!

I did not find you overly critical at all…rather expressing your opinion.

Regards, Barb:wave:
Bonnie Sth. Aust.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Here is the quote from the article by Anthony de Mello that caused some problems in this thread:
" There are times when psychotherapy is a tremendous help, because when you’re on the verge of going insane, raving mad, you’re about to become either a psychotic or a mystic. That’s what the mystic is, the opposite of the lunatic "

The whole article can be found on:
[5. Are We Talking About Psychology in this Spirituality Course](http://www.geocities.com/~spiritwalk/demelloawareness.htm#psych & spirit)

As I said elsewhere in this thread, de Mello does expect the person to read his work with common sense, nor most often does he spell things out or give answers, rather he presents clues for pondering.
As you see in the above quote de Mello does state that ‘lunacy’ and mystic are on the opposite ends of the pole entirely!
I think what he is talking about (from my ponderings) is that spiritual ‘darkness’ only becomes really apparent because God has given consolation or light. When this consolation or light is withdrawn completely, one is left with the feeling of “What is wrong with me, am I going insane” type of feeling or awareness and the person is left with a naked and dark longing for God. They may think they have regressed completely on the spiritual path, perhaps that God is absent because of their sinfulness…all sorts of incorrect notions may flood into the mind. Such negative thinking may well cause a level of depression and I may take myself to a psychiatrist, when the real problem is spiritual and at times psychiatrists for whatever reason may not sight this or want to sight it and attempt to treat the depression. The person really needs spiritual direction however.

Anthony de Mello is often quite confronting and challenging and this is what he is about in this particular talk…he is presenting quite controversial ideas and concepts. What he is asking is a rethink about certain important matters in our life, about important things that we simply take for granted and not necessarily he is implying with healthy concepts.

We may tend towards that spirituality is something ‘out there’ that I need do or achieve…de Mello takes spirituality as getting in contact with one’s ground of being, with our humanity and understanding it. This falls in life with the words of Jesus “my kingdom is within you” … “if you keep my commandments, we will come to you and make our abode with you”. Holiness means wholiness…being the person I was meant to be or ‘whole’. Once spirituality was seen as a denial of the self and the world…now we are asked to love the world and in a spiritually healthy way and also to love our own selves and everyone with spiritual health and it goes without saying for the love of God. True science and true theology walk hand in hand and not in contradiction for if they do then either the science is wrong or the theology and needs to do a rethink. Psychology is a science as is spiritual/mystical theology.

Any thoughts on the article as a whole or my comments above?

Regards - Barb
Sth. Aust.*

 

[springbreeze]

Dear friends

At the end of the day this character expresses his relationship with God and that doesn’t mean it is one we all should follow nor does it mean we should dismiss all of his writings out of hand, simply when reading what anyone has to say about Christ Jesus, apart from the Majesterium, then we must exercise prudence. This is applicable to private revelation as in as much as it is applicable to theologians, writers, philosophers and also to the opinions expressed on forums such as that we are partcipating in here.

We are not asked to remain in a comfort zone, we are asked to cast out into the deep (before the Apostles set out on their ministry with Jesus He saw if they would cast out into the deep when He asked them to do so and trust Him in this), however this is not the same as following after things that are and have been stated to be outside of Vatican advice. I am not one for conspiracy theories, I truly believe the Majesterium is protected by the Holy Spirit, if this is the case a mind, a soul, a person may express some sound information, however if in any part they swerve off into unsound information, unsound thinking in respect of religious matters, then it would be prudent to sift out the chaff and stick with what has already been found to be sound in the Saints and teachers of the Church.

Don’t get me wrong I am open and like a good read, I like to be stretched and stimulated in my faith, but not at any cost. I select my reading material and presently for me the reading of Sacred Scripture is my spiritual stretching under the catholic teaching of Sacred Scripture and anything else ever written is a dim reflection of Sacred Scripture and sometimes, just sometimes is errornous.

Faith is so easily tormented, so easily erroded, so easily loseable, so easily tainted, so easily mutated, so easily dirtied, so easily marred, so easily troubled, so easily corrupted, so easily disrupted, so easily profaned, so easily destabilised, so easily water-down, so easily persecuted and so easily burnt out and stolen… it is the most precious gift we must safeguard.

We are not called to be another St Teresa, another St Francis, another St Bernadette another of any of the great saints of the church, we are called to be the great Saint Christ Jesus wants us to be and this is not achieved by emulating anyone else but Christ Jesus. We can read all day someone else’s writings, someone else’s ideas and thoughts, but we must find ourselves within the Church and every Catholic is called to be a Great Saint.

Barb, you are called to be Saint Barb and you will not find St Barb in anyone else’s writings, you may see a glimpse of it, something that attracts you, but you will only find who you are in Christ Jesus , so my advice to you is read less and pray more seeking Jesus in His word and tradition within the Church and Barb, Mello and other writers will not matter anymore, you will fall in love with Christ Jesus and your own path will increasingly become clear.

Always be who YOU are, God made you as such for a purpose…read less, talk to God more, listen to God more and be YOU more.

I walk away from anything that explores areas that do not enrich faith, but erode it and that is such an easy thing to happen, be careful friend, the most precious gift from God, faith, must be preserved, protected and loved in it’s purity …Jesus said that anyone who ever led one of His little ones from the truth would have better been drowned with a millstone around their neck than have ever been born (paraphrased)…protect your beautiful gift from God Barb! This is the most serious thing I will ever say to you in many ways and you know what I mean, exploration in faith is a fascinating thing, but prudence in exploration is THE far more positive.

Be careful what you desire.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Joysong]

Dear Barb,

I was not inspired to read this thread, but when I saw that Teresa made a reply, I decided to take a look, for she often has inspiring words of truth. What I saw was an admonishment to urge you to exercise caution, and well do I agree with her after reading this:

---

******Because people are crazy, they’re lunatics, and the sooner you see this, the better for your mental and spiritual health. Don’t trust them. Don’t trust your best friends. Get disillusioned with your best friends. They’re very clever. As you are in your dealings with everybody else, though you probably don’t know it. Ah, you’re so wily, and subtle, ******and clever. You’re putting on a great act.

***I’m not being very complimentary here, am I? But I repeat: You want to wake up. You’re putting on a great act. And you don’t even know it. You think you’re being so loving. Ha! Whom are you loving? Even your self-sacrifice gives you a good feeling, doesn’t it? “I’m sacrificing myself! I’m living up to my ideal.” But you’re getting something out of it, ***aren’t you? You’re always getting something out of everything you do, until you wake up.

**

Barb, I cannot believe you find beauty and uplifting inspiration in this!! I’m also upset that you wanted the members here to read these depressing words. It seems to be a sneer and taunt right out of the pit. Where is your discernment as to how your spirit reacts in the presence of this person’s thoughts?

Why would you leave the beauty and wisdom of St. Teresa and St. John, whom I know you love to read, for stuff like this? Many times when I saw you post about Thomas Merton, I considered speaking with you, but held my tongue. He, too, is another one whose writings are under scrutiny, for his inclination to Zen and eastern mysticism.

I suppose for the health and safety of your soul, I echo Teresa’s concern and ask you to abandon these spurious writings for the tried and true works of the saints and those works which at least have an imprimatur.

With Christ’s love and a prayer,
Carole

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi there Carole…good to catch up with you again.

De Mello is talking about seeing our relationships with honesty. His quite challenging words are a manner of immediately opening the ears of his ‘audience’. It is one manner of presentation amongst many to capture the interest of an audience.

Certainly de Mello is not calling all lunatics or mad ( see followng link:
[5. Are We Talking About Psychology in this Spirituality Course](http://www.geocities.com/~spiritwalk/demelloawareness.htm#psych & spirit)
Lunacy or madness, insanity, is labelled such because such are not living in the reality of matters. He is pointing out that though we are quite sane very often we do not see the reality of matters either. As an example a few years ago I was accused of theft and all of my friends bar one believed that accusation because the evidence looked pretty convicting. I was entirely devestated to find that my friends had turned against me. The accusation was found to be entirely false and my name cleared. However I learnt something out of all that…we are just as ready to condemn as to praise.
Prior to the accusation, did I see the reality of matters that my friends could and would turn against me. No I did not. Did my friends see the reality about me that I I was not a thief, no they did not. Our perception of reality is not necessarily THE reality, the correct perception of actual realities.
In the second paragraph de Mello is challenging his listeners (it was actually a retreat transcribed given to religious sisters) to see the reality very often of their good or charitable acts, of who they really are and how they perceive themselves. That we do receive our reward: we feel good, we may feel holy etc. etc. Now this is all well and good, but he is challenging them to insight the truth or reality of matters, that they are actually getting their reward and getting it in the here and now.

Life is all perception and attitude, Carole, it could be said and in much of what I have read of de Mello (not all I repeat!) he simply is putting the concepts often of St. John and St. Teresa in contemporary terms. He oft quotes them as well as Scripture. You perceive matters differently to me. Anything that I lift out of common sense and of the teachings of The Church I would hold absolutely suspect.

But your perception and attitude together with your admonishment are different to mine. And hey that’s fine by me. Your coming from wherever you are coming and I also.
St. John and also St. Teresa remain to my mind without equal in insighting spiritual and often psychological realities and de Mello most often recognizes this nor does he contradict.

With any sort of religious writings I always look to see if there is an Imprimatur and if not, then I know that the work has not been approved by The Church and I know exactly where I am thus where a particular work is concerned. There is no obligation nowadays to read only reading with an Imprimatur. If I find one or two bad apples in my bowl of fruit and I then chuck out the hole bowl, even the healthy fruit it is clearly nonsensical. AS the Vatican proclomation on de Mello does state, I quote:
*
"His works, which almost always take the form of brief stories, contain some valid elements of oriental wisdom. These can be helpful in achieving self-mastery, in breaking the bonds and feelings that keep us from being free, and in approaching with serenity the various vicissitudes of life. "

If I find gold in a rubbish heap and chuck it away because it IS in a rubbish heap, I am clearly stupid! Gold as they say is wherever it is found.
I simply refuse to chuck out the whole bowl of fruit because a few pieces are bad or rotten…I pay this same common sense application to all matters. If I cannot see I am often partly right, partly wrong, I live in self deception and possibly pride that is blinding me to the reality of matters and this is the same for all.
*
Thank you for the concern for my soul. I did notice smiling your opening sentence and possible implication including your entire Post. …and hearkened to the words of de Mello in his opening paragarph "wily and subtle’. Now this is simply my conditional interpretation as is yours that he is sneering and taunting and an interesting perhaps projection. Thank you for the concern for my soul?

Thank you very much for the comments Carole, no publicity is bad publicity. My response is every bit as deliberate as yours. I was in fact wondering if you were still around since I have not contributed to CAF much lately at all and if you would come in, if you were around, on this thread.

Regards, Barb:wave:

---

 

[Joysong]

Dear Barb,

I haven’t been around much lately in “Spirituality,” but I have been posting my little fingers off in “Liturgy” - a section I never dreamed I would enter because of all the heated controversy there. In fact, I do not think I will be staying much longer, unless I feel the Lord prompting me. I saw some words in our diocesan newspaper today that maybe sums it up, “the infallible sign of the Holy Spirit is joy!” I feel anything but spiritual joy when I enter that area. Kinda like :banghead:

Anyway, back to topic. Your words are shadowed in mystery to me, Barb, so I cannot read with understanding. But anyway, I know you have always been very kind-hearted and I will put my best interpretation on them. It must be the Aussie difference that makes it a little hard for me. Please don’t worry about it and set about to retype it all. We are fine.

Kind regards,
Carole

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Here is another extract from de Mello that illustrates my point and his incidentally about reality …
geocities.com/~spiritwalk/demelloawareness.htm#will%20I%20be%20help

"There was a woman in a therapy group I was conducting once. She was a religious sister. She said to me, "I don’t feel supported by my superior."So I said, “What do you mean by that?” And she said, "Well, my superior,the provincial superior, never shows up at the novitiate where I am in
charge, never. She never says a word of appreciation."

I said to her, "All right let’s do a little role playing. Pretend I know your provincial superior. In fact, pretend I know exactly what she thinks about you. So Isay to you (acting the part of the provincial superior), 'You know, Mary,the reason I don’t come to that place you’re in is because it is the one
***place in the province that is trouble-free, no problems. I know you’re in charge, so all is well.’ How do you feel now?" She said, “I feel great.” Then I said to her, “All right, would you mind leaving the room for a minute or two? This is part of the exercise.” So she did. ***
While she was away, I said to the others in the therapy group, "I am still the provincial superior, O.K.? Mary out there is the worst novice director I have ever had in the whole history of the province. In fact, the reason I don’t go to the novitiate is because I can’t bear to see what she is up to. It’s simply awful. But if I tell her the truth, it’s only going to make those novices suffer all the more. We are getting somebody to take her place in a year or two; we are training someone. In the meantime I thought I would say those nice things to her to keep her going. What do you think of
that?" They answered, “Well, it was really the only thing you could do under the circumstances.” Then I brought Mary back into the group and asked her if she still felt great. “Oh yes,” she said.
Poor Mary! She thought she was being supported when she wasn’t. The point is that most of what we feel and think we conjure up for ourselves in our heads "
**

Does the fact I am convinced I am right by its very self/per se make it the reality of matters. No! To depend on others for a feeling or state of wellbeing, to depend on them for affirmation or to feel whole with self esteem and confidence as it were are shifting sands indeed. That is what de Mello is stating in the above.
Or to underscore the words of Jesus "put not your trust in the princes of men’. In God alone I trust. Of course and this is common sense! we cannot go through life trusting no one, but our trust must remain conditional and relative - but not so our trust in God. Detachment from others as being dependance on others opinion to quote a spiritual concept. To be detached from both their negative AND positive opinions of us.
In the above tale of de Mello’s the nun is clearly not told the truth - that is very obvious. But this is not the nitty gritty of the matter, it is incidental to it, the nitty gritty of the matter is that the nun in questions was dependant on others’ opinions of her.

Barb*

 

[BarbaraTherese]

springbreeze:

Dear friends

At the end of the day this character expresses his relationship with God and that doesn’t mean it is one we all should follow nor does it mean we should dismiss all of his writings out of hand, simply when reading what anyone has to say about Christ Jesus, apart from the Majesterium, then we must exercise prudence. This is applicable to private revelation as in as much as it is applicable to theologians, writers, philosophers and also to the opinions expressed on forums such as that we are partcipating in here.

We are not asked to remain in a comfort zone, we are asked to cast out into the deep (before the Apostles set out on their ministry with Jesus He saw if they would cast out into the deep when He asked them to do so and trust Him in this), however this is not the same as following after things that are and have been stated to be outside of Vatican advice. I am not one for conspiracy theories, I truly believe the Majesterium is protected by the Holy Spirit, if this is the case a mind, a soul, a person may express some sound information, however if in any part they swerve off into unsound information, unsound thinking in respect of religious matters, then it would be prudent to sift out the chaff and stick with what has already been found to be sound in the Saints and teachers of the Church.

Don’t get me wrong I am open and like a good read, I like to be stretched and stimulated in my faith, but not at any cost. I select my reading material and presently for me the reading of Sacred Scripture is my spiritual stretching under the catholic teaching of Sacred Scripture and anything else ever written is a dim reflection of Sacred Scripture and sometimes, just sometimes is errornous.

Faith is so easily tormented, so easily erroded, so easily loseable, so easily tainted, so easily mutated, so easily dirtied, so easily marred, so easily troubled, so easily corrupted, so easily disrupted, so easily profaned, so easily destabilised, so easily water-down, so easily persecuted and so easily burnt out and stolen… it is the most precious gift we must safeguard.

We are not called to be another St Teresa, another St Francis, another St Bernadette another of any of the great saints of the church, we are called to be the great Saint Christ Jesus wants us to be and this is not achieved by emulating anyone else but Christ Jesus. We can read all day someone else’s writings, someone else’s ideas and thoughts, but we must find ourselves within the Church and every Catholic is called to be a Great Saint.

Barb, you are called to be Saint Barb and you will not find St Barb in anyone else’s writings, you may see a glimpse of it, something that attracts you, but you will only find who you are in Christ Jesus , so my advice to you is read less and pray more seeking Jesus in His word and tradition within the Church and Barb, Mello and other writers will not matter anymore, you will fall in love with Christ Jesus and your own path will increasingly become clear.

Always be who YOU are, God made you as such for a purpose…read less, talk to God more, listen to God more and be YOU more.

I walk away from anything that explores areas that do not enrich faith, but erode it and that is such an easy thing to happen, be careful friend, the most precious gift from God, faith, must be preserved, protected and loved in it’s purity …Jesus said that anyone who ever led one of His little ones from the truth would have better been drowned with a millstone around their neck than have ever been born (paraphrased)…protect your beautiful gift from God Barb! This is the most serious thing I will ever say to you in many ways and you know what I mean, exploration in faith is a fascinating thing, but prudence in exploration is THE far more positive.

Be careful what you desire.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

Thank you for the comments Teresa.

Regards Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I think to call me personally into question because of the thread is quite beside the point and to some degree judging me personally. But if any contributor addresses the words I have quoted by de Mello, or my comments or others, on his words, then I will comment. Other than that others do have every right to think and state whatever they may, I will not comment on quite personal judgements of me or an imagined disposition of mine.

Howdy Carole, caught the implications again…laughing a lot!..that’s something I do insight, that we are all well. “All is well, all is well and all manner of things will be well” (Julian of Norwich). There is a spirit of peace and of joy in the midst of conflict, not only where everyone agrees. If I lack joy, then probably the problem dismissing joy could be in my own attitude.:yup: In fact your statement rather sums up De Mello in many instances. If I am in some sort of pain or suffering, before I point a finger, the problem could well be in me.

Barb

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Clearly if Christ was here, we would find his mindset to be “nonstandard” and would thus diagnose him.

Insanity is just a word for a state of mind that somebody else doesn’t understand.

Mystic is somebody who is sensitive to the groanings of the heart.

No doubt they all are cut from the same mold.

Alan

edit – sorry Barb if this is redundant. I tried, but you know I’m a slow reader. I can type faster than I can read, so maybe that’s why my output to (name removed by moderator)ut ratio is so high.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

AlanFromWichita:

Clearly if Christ was here, we would find his mindset to be “nonstandard” and would thus diagnose him.

Insanity is just a word for a state of mind that somebody else doesn’t understand.

Mystic is somebody who is sensitive to the groanings of the heart.

No doubt they all are cut from the same mold.

Alan

edit – sorry Barb if this is redundant. I tried, but you know I’m a slow reader. I can type faster than I can read, so maybe that’s why my output to (name removed by moderator)ut ratio is so high.

Hi there Alan and good to catch up with you again.

I think probably that the mindset of both mystic and the insane are both somewhat strange to the common consciousness and either could be termed by such as ‘crazy’ or ‘mad’ and these are labels very clearly and obviously quite derogatory terms and meant to be so for what cannot be understood. More often than not the basis of this reaction is fear - fear of what is different. As an example, Julian of Norwich (mystic) and her statement that “all is well, all is well and all manner of things will be well” is oft misunderstood as is St. Augustine’s “love and do what you will” and another mystic. Are these two saints and mystics seeing something “different” well they are, but what they ‘see’ is reality as it is…a mystic by the very term sees reality as it is.
The stories of our saints are almost full of assessments of them as being somewhat ‘crazy’ or too different and being rejected and at times by Church heirarchy. This does not at all imply that anything anyone states if rejected is thus correct. That is to lift my statement out of the obvious into the absurd or ridiculous.
It does however imply that if someone has found something worth the stating, then it is worth pondering and not rejecting outright and on the basis of an illogical reasoning.

Alan, having come to know you much better than when I first ‘met’ you on CAF - you absolutely astound me at just how much work you are able to deal with. Here is a case in point that we can disagree without descending to personal attack and are willing to ‘listen’ to anything stated and consider and comment on that not necessarily agreeing without derogatory personal implications. We merely insight that in some areas we have different opinions.

I think the mystic and the psychotic are cut from the same mould in that both to perhaps normal or common consciousness are quite different and cannot be quite understood. In other words, I sight your implication by your stating “cut from the same mould” and agree with it. This is not to say that the mystic and psychotic are one and the same, but cut from the same mould of ‘the different’ from the majority. A person suffering psychosis should no more wear a clearly derogatory term any more than any mystic.

De Mello can be very subtle and I find this often quite funny and a laugh at myself. For in telling his audience they were crazy, that we are all crazy…he is drawing a valid parallel. The psychotic person does not insight reality, nor always do we and in fact perhaps often…if I think a person is my best friend and they turn out not to be: I never sighted reality but put faith in my own assessment of it which faith was clearly misguided. That is the subtle and amusing inference he makes … and that is all!

De Mello is using merely a skill of talking to an audience to capture their attention by being quite confronting and challenging. He is not saying that the mystic and the psychotic are on a par, but two sentences further on in his talk or so, clearly states that they are on opposite ends of ‘the pole’. De Mello does not proclaim to set out any ‘doctrine’ - rather to invite his listeners to re think what they may be taking for granted and perhaps incorrectly so. It is perhaps the old old case of following the laws and rules as ends in themselves and never coming to where they are meant to lead. As those that cease thinking once they have established what to them is the literal meaning and never hear the implication or what is really being said.
There is a little story I have read somewhere that its like a student that never becomes a mathematician because he/she sights the answers at the back of the book and believes them. Incidentally the answers are quite correct.

Thanks for the comments Alan…and the signature which can be very true.

Barb