Maggie Thatcher passes

[petronus]

The war helped her get elected 3 times, the talk of that war went on for ages after and still goes on…

Completely true .

Without the Falklands War , a war condemned by Pope John Paul II , she would have been thrown out in the first General Election of her premiership .

Never were the words of Samuel Johnson more true : " Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel . "

 

[liturgyluver]

And it isn’t a personal crusade for you ?

Regarding my post # 144 , I note your failure to back up your comments by using the words of my posts to justify what you have said about me .

How do you justify the Thatcher government’s legislation which amended the abortion laws to permit abortion to full term for the disability of the baby , for the life of the mother and for the health of the mother ?

Now that is a simple question , and I think that someone with the naivety of P. G. Wodehouse would be able to answer it quite easily , old fellow .

No - it’s certainly not a crusade on my part If you go back to my first post here, you will see that I said very clearly that I didn’t agree with all her policies. It’s certainly not for me to “justify” as you put it legislation, but you seem to have (conveniently?) forgotten that in the free vote on the HFEA bill she supported Lord David Alton’s (a Catholic) proposed amendment. This is what he said about her 2 days ago:

I was particularly pleased when she came to the House to vote on my Motion opposing the further destruction of human embryos and the creation of animal human hybrid embryos. She told me she saw no scientific reasons for such experiments.

Of course I wish that she, along with all other politicians, had taken a different stand against abortion, but she hardly bucked the trend here and I don’t think that merits the bitterness and fanaticism that you seem to displaying in your posts.

 

[JackyB]

I detested her. There would be little point trying to explain why. Anyone who would understand why I detested her doesn’t need me to explain. Anyone who doesn’t never would no matter what I would say.

I will say this much. It’s unusual for me to have strong feelings of this nature towards anyone. In fact, I have never in my life felt so strongly about anyone in such a negative way. The only reason I posted this is to let others know she was not everyone’s icon, and there are very valid reasons why she was not. As such, not all of us feel is sad and a great loss. We are simply not capable of feeling like that.

No I fully understand, I feel the same about Mugabe but hey it was Britain who honored him, wined and dined, bestowed a knighthood on him, and what a great man he has turned out to be. There is the old saying that one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist and this applies to Mandela you people in Britain may see him in one light but not everyone shares your view.The same feelings as diverse as feelings for Mrs Thatcher I am sure.

 

[petronus]

Of course I wish that she, along with all other politicians, had taken a different stand against abortion, but she hardly bucked the trend here and I don’t think that merits the bitterness and fanaticism that you seem to displaying in your posts.

You are at it again , and continue to fail to produce any evidence from my posts for your personal attacks on me .

Again I ask you to please quote anything I have said in my posts that warrants your accusation of my displaying “bitterness and fanaticism” .

 

[rob6t]

It is heartening to read such sympathic US and world reactions to Margaret Thatcher’s death, sadly opinions here in the UK are much more ‘mixed’ - there are some who sing her praises and others who are … for want of a better word … cruel …

for example some are joyful at her passing, and worse - there is a campaign to get people to download a song from the film ‘the wizard of oz’ - Ding dong the witch is dead. It is quite embarassing to know that your fellow country men can be so cruel at this difficult time for her family. May she rest in peace. rob.

 

[minkymurph]

How about explaining to somebody who doesn’t really know who she was or what thibgs she did, (other than her position) like myself?

The reason I posted on this thread was simply to demonstrate not all are sad at Thatcher’s passing and realistically, cannot be expected to be. I couldn’t not say anything in response to this thread. If you are genuinely interested I will explain and will attempt to do so in an unoffensive manner that takes account of the fact not everyone will agree. Irrespective of what I think of her, I have no wish to be offensive to anyone on the forums and I have no desire to use the thread to promote a political position and attempt to persuade others to accept it.

 

[Northumbrian]

She voted in favour of abortion.

Pray for her soul.

 

[Slaney]

I detested her. There would be little point trying to explain why. Anyone who would understand why I detested her doesn’t need me to explain. Anyone who doesn’t never would no matter what I would say.

I will say this much. It’s unusual for me to have strong feelings of this nature towards anyone. In fact, I have never in my life felt so strongly about anyone in such a negative way. The only reason I posted this is to let others know she was not everyone’s icon, and there are very valid reasons why she was not. As such, not all of us feel is sad and a great loss. We are simply not capable of feeling like that.

Maggie was hailed a great leader on the international scene, but on the domestic scene I’m afraid not, the rich man & Lazarus says it all, she didn’t recognize the poor man, now sitting in the bosom of Abraham.

I hope Divine Mercy Shines upon her, we all need Divine Mercy !

 

[Slaney]

Completely true .

Without the Falklands War , a war condemned by Pope John Paul II , she would have been thrown out in the first General Election of her premiership .

**
Never were the words of Samuel Johnson more true : " Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel .** "

Never hear these words before, unbelievably true !

 

[triumphguy]

The war helped her get elected 3 times, the talk of that war went on for ages after and still goes on…

Be fair - she didn’t want the war (by all accounts, many of which have been printed in the papers over the last few days), she didn’t start the war, but Britain did have the right and duty and responsibility to defend the Falklands and prosecute the war. And because they did an immoral dictatorship was overthrown.

And she got more votes in the 3rd election than the first. Was that due to the war?

 

[triumphguy]

Completely true .

Without the Falklands War , **a war condemned by Pope John Paul II **, she would have been thrown out in the first General Election of her premiership .

Never were the words of Samuel Johnson more true : " Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel . "

Source?

This is what I found:

newreligion.eu/2013/01/secret-files-of-popes-1982-uk-visit.html Pope John Paul II’s 1982 visit was put in jeopardy by the outbreak of the Falklands War between Argentina and the UK, say newly released records from The National Archives. The Vatican were reluctant to go ahead as they feared that visiting Britain could be interpreted as a show of support, which would risk antagonising the mostly Catholic population of Argentina.

British prime minister, Margaret Thatcher, responded by suggesting the nature of the visit be changed from political to pastoral. Thatcher also warned how cancelling would be ‘interpreted by the British public and others as a pro-Argentinian gesture’. The visit did eventually go ahead and became the first time a Pope had been to the UK in centuries. Pope John Paul II was received by the Queen and representatives from the Church of England, but not officially by government ministers.

Records also show the Pope sent a telegram to the prime minister calling for an ‘immediate ceasefire’. Thatcher replied by insisting the Argentinians were the aggressors and so ‘cannot be allowed to succeed’.

 

[minkymurph]

No I fully understand, I feel the same about Mugabe but hey it was Britain who honored him, wined and dined, bestowed a knighthood on him, and what a great man he has turned out to be. There is the old saying that one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist and this applies to Mandela you people in Britain may see him in one light but not everyone shares your view.The same feelings as diverse as feelings for Mrs Thatcher I am sure.

You said a great thing in my book Jacky B - one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist. It depends what side of the political divide you are on.

You know, we humans really are the strangest things. I openly admit I have prejudices and certain bias. We all have certain prejudice and bias, whether we like to admit it or not. I’m not proud of them, but I have come to understand they are normal - normal for humans.

I have a terrible prejudice against the English. Recently, this prejudice shocked me because I like to think of myself as above that, in that I met an English woman and the only reason I wasn’t prepared to give her a chance and be friendly with her was simply because she was English. However, the first step in overcoming prejudice is to recognize you have it. Then, recognize there is something wrong with that and have a willingness to address it.

The first step in my path to overcoming this prejudice is when I encountered English people who felt the same way about Thatcher as I did. It prompted me to think, maybe they are not all that different and maybe we are not that far apart, and maybe there are English people who understand how we feel and we can resolve our differences in a democratic way, and without hating each other. So, maybe Thatcher did do something for peace between England and Ireland, all be it in a way she did not intend.

 

[Slaney]

Be fair - she didn’t want the war (by all accounts, many of which have been printed in the papers over the last few days), she didn’t start the war, but Britain did have the right and duty and responsibility to defend the Falklands and prosecute the war.

And because they did an immoral dictatorship was overthrown.

Ok the Argentinean’s were wrong to fight for the Malvenas immoral dictarorship umm…but what about General Pinochet whom Mr’s Thactcher supported
?

And she got more votes in the 3rd election than the first. Was that due to the war?

Well if you’d read my previous post, you wouldn’t be asking the same question in the second !

 

[triumphguy]

Ok the Argentinean’s were wrong to fight for the Malvenas immoral dictarorship umm…but what about General Pinochet whom Mr’s Thactcher supported
?

Well if you’d read my previous post, you wouldn’t be asking the same question in the second !

See that’s where you confuse me…

Maggie never stole the Falklands from anyone - neither did the Brits.

And the election was as much lost by Michael Foot as won by Maggie Thatcher.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/vote_2005/basics/4393313.stm Since going down to Thatcher’s first election victory in 1979 Labour had changed leaders and marched firmly to the left.

Leading the party into his first and last election battle Michael Foot fought a poor campaign, lacking in organisation as well as the necessary money, not to mention a series of policies that the voters could not support…

Labour’s left wing programme, rambling and radical in equal measure, was referred to by a member of the shadow cabinet as the “longest suicide note in history”.

 

[triumphguy]

Yeah the same old planter tactics that was used in Ireland, plantate it and then lets have a vote.

Nope - different - the Islands were inhabited by penguins not people.

 

[triumphguy]

I am from a working class background and apparently one of ‘Thatcher’s Children’ having grown up in the midst of her changes to the UK. Like many children from working class families (particularly Northern England, Scotland & Wales. I’ll leave Ireland to others), I grew up with the very real and tangible feeling of having no hope and little chance of a future. Schools were worse than useless, being treadmills for disaffected youth; there were no jobs for those leaving school and families were torn apart as the falling away of the manufacturing and heavy industry sectors left many men without a job or role in society. The effects of this are still apparent today with many people existing in what is commonly referred to as a ‘sub class’.

There has been much written and said about Margaret Thatcher over the last 24 hours and let nobody forget that all the ‘strong leader’, ‘conviction politician’, ‘patriotic’, ‘transformed the country’ etc descriptions, could easily be applied to lunatics like Hitler, Stalin et al.

What has been interesting are the remarks from those outside the UK, namely USA, where Thatcher is highly thought of. It is natural I suppose that politicians from foreign countries are judged by their foreign policies. There appears to me an ironic correlation between Obama and Thatcher in as much as they are largely disliked by their fellow countrymen and adored by those abroad. Many people in the UK love Obama and cannot understand why Americans don’t share their feelings. Reading many of the comments from the USA it would appear that Americans are similarly confused as to why Thatcher could be so despised in her country of origin.

I am refusing to engage in the glee at her passing that many in my part of the world (North West England/North East Wales) are so vocally expressing. It has been humbling for me to see the physical demise of someone who was once so strong and powerful and a reminder that many of us will become old, frail, weak and dependent. An old lady has died leaving children and grandchildren that will be mourning at this very moment and it is important to remember this simple truth. As for the legacy of her politics, that will continue to divide most people. In the UK we often refer to something being like Marmite (you either love it or hate it), Margaret Thatcher is someone that will probably always fall into this category.

A Wythenshawe “Red” here I like your sig. And I agree with much of what YOU say - though I disagree with others who have taken a pot shot at Thatcher seemingly based on some kind of agenda rather than experience.

 

[triumphguy]

This is so true. The very sight of her made me angry but I recall feeling some grudging admiration for her on her final day in office. Best just to pray for her…at least until after her funeral.

(Ooh Ahh - nice signature:bowdown2

United fan too?

 

[petronus]

She voted in favour of abortion.

That is very true , going all the way back to the Private Member’s Bill in 1967 which legalised abortion in Britain she voted for it .

But not only that , her own government , the Conservative Government , amended the 1967 Abortion Act to legalise abortion to full term for the disabilty of the baby , for the life of the mother and for the health of the mother .

 

[meltzerboy]

That is very true , going all the way back to the Private Member’s Bill in 1967 which legalised abortion in Britain she voted for it .

But not only that , her own government , the Conservative Government , amended the 1967 Abortion Act to legalise abortion to full term for the disabilty of the baby , for the life of the mother and for the health of the mother .

Is legalizing abortion to full term for the life and health of the mother, and even in regard to the disability of the baby (dependent on how that is defined), the equivalent of abortion on demand? It may not be in accord with the Catholic faith, but some Protestants (including the late Margaret Thatcher), as well as those of other religions, may accept such conditions. What is then so wrong with Margaret Thatcher’s legalizing this? Isn’t England still primarily a Protestant nation, and is legalizing abortion according to these conditions denying Catholics the right not to have an abortion under any circumstances?

 

[Gricken]

The reason I posted on this thread was simply to demonstrate not all are sad at Thatcher’s passing and realistically, cannot be expected to be. I couldn’t not say anything in response to this thread. If you are genuinely interested I will explain and will attempt to do so in an unoffensive manner that takes account of the fact not everyone will agree. Irrespective of what I think of her, I have no wish to be offensive to anyone on the forums and I have no desire to use the thread to promote a political position and attempt to persuade others to accept it.

That would be nice, yes.