Magic and Prayer

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Before I actually get to my point, I’m going to go ahead and let you all know that I am a practicing Witch, and not Christian in any way.

Magic has multiple definitions, but most of them go something like this:
“Magic, sometimes known as sorcery, is the practice of consciousness manipulation and/or autosuggestion to achieve a desired result, usually by techniques described in various conceptual systems.” ~Wikipedia
Now that sounds like a rather roundabouts type of definition if you ask me, though it works as an excellent example. To state it somewhat more simply, magic is the practice of trying to achieve a goal in part through non-physical ways (Almost all magic is augmented by more mundane activities). In either case, I do not see how our definition of magic is separate from your definition of prayer.
Though one could argue quite easily that prayer lacks the finesse of magic, right off the bat I don’t see how you differentiate from the two. My understanding of prayer is that you simply announce an intention, usually so someone who is dead, and that somehow they make this happen. That sounds a lot like you are trying to achieve a goal in a non-physical manner.
Sounds a little familiar if you ask me.

Just to clear the air, I don’t actually believe that they are the same, and I don’t think that anyone who’s a serious practitioner of Witchcraft would come to that conclusion, however I was simply curious how you Christians defined the difference.
 
_Gandalf said:
Before I actually get to my point, I’m going to go ahead and let you all know that I am a practicing Witch, and not Christian in any way.

Magic has multiple definitions, but most of them go something like this:
“Magic, sometimes known as sorcery, is the practice of consciousness manipulation and/or autosuggestion to achieve a desired result, usually by techniques described in various conceptual systems.” ~Wikipedia
Now that sounds like a rather roundabouts type of definition if you ask me, though it works as an excellent example. To state it somewhat more simply, magic is the practice of trying to achieve a goal in part through non-physical ways (Almost all magic is augmented by more mundane activities). In either case, I do not see how our definition of magic is separate from your definition of prayer.
Though one could argue quite easily that prayer lacks the finesse of magic, right off the bat I don’t see how you differentiate from the two. My understanding of prayer is that you simply announce an intention, usually so someone who is dead, and that somehow they make this happen. That sounds a lot like you are trying to achieve a goal in a non-physical manner.
Sounds a little familiar if you ask me.

Just to clear the air, I don’t actually believe that they are the same, and I don’t think that anyone who’s a serious practitioner of Witchcraft would come to that conclusion, however I was simply curious how you Christians defined the difference.
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The raising of the heart and mind to God…Somewhat in a simplistic way, prayer is a request or petition, or it is in thanksgiving. It is directed to our Lord and will.
 
What the last poster said.

Prayer involves requests and submission before God. We ask Him of things the same we would go to anyone more power than ourselves (parents, bosses, etc.) with requests. If asking your boss for a raise isn’t “magic,” than neither is prayer.

Magic is the opposite of prayer, in the sense that it seeks manipulation, as that definition suggests. It seeks to make us lords over the spiritual realm, instead of humble and unworthy servants of the one who is “pure Spirit” (Jn 4:24).

That’s why, with magic, the idea is that if you do certain spells the right way, your goal will come true - you’re in control; with prayer, you ask, and are the mercy of God.
 
Besides requesting things of God, prayer mainly is the worship of Him who created us and all things, who loves us with an infinite love, and desires our cooperation for our sanctification, salvation, and everlasting happiness.

When unavoidable suffering comes our way we need to pray to offer it up without complaining, to our Lord Jesus Christ who suffered, died, and rose from the dead…all for us.

We need to adore Him, thank Him and worship Him, as all good things come from Him! In this way we grow in His grace and peace, and attract others to it.

To Him alone be the glory!
 
I can’t speak to your definition of “magic” since it’s outside my realm of knowledge, but I can tell you that your definition of prayer is inaccurate to the extreme. Prayer has nothing to do with “making something happen”… The most common prayers of Christians (or certainly Catholics) boils down to saying to God “Thy Will be done”. We don’t ask (or at least we shouldn’t) for a specific result.

Much of my prayer lately has no “intention” at all… It is simply worship of the Creator of the universe.

So I guess if I were to try to state a difference between magic and prayer is that magic is intended for the gain of ones self while prayer is adoration of God. They really seem to have little or nothing in common.

Thanks for your question!

May God bless and guide you
 
Magic is the power one gets from the garden…to eat some of the fruit of the tree of knowledge so one can become like the gods…
 
The life in the Spirit is life in the Spirit of God. This life is of a higher order than material life. It is the basis and the form of the life of material things. This world of the spirit cannot be manipulated, as the higher cannot be controlled by the lower.

Christians rightly ask for the good that comes from the source of True Good, God. This good we participate in is in our nature to be able to accept which is called obediential potency. We must ask for the graces needed to do the Will of God since we, of a lower order, have no natural potency inclined toward this higher order. We must ask for all graces and God has deemed it to be this way. If we were able to receive naturally these graces, it would be God Who would be withholding from us what we needed naturally, as we naturally need food and social interaction.

Magic is a corruption of this order, trying to manipulate the higher by way of the lower. Since we ask, God lets us receive what we want, but if it in not in union with God this leads to separation from Him, Who alone is our true good and happiness. It is in our dignity as made in the image of God that He gives us what we ask for. It is only in God, though, that our nature is perfected and we become more like God and less like mere animals, following base passions to the exclusion of divine holiness. Ask, and you will receive.
 
Sometimes saying my prayers seems like magic mysticism but its best left up to God.
 
_Gandalf said:
Before I actually get to my point, I’m going to go ahead and let you all know that I am a practicing Witch, and not Christian in any way.

Magic has multiple definitions, but most of them go something like this:
“Magic, sometimes known as sorcery, is the practice of consciousness manipulation and/or autosuggestion to achieve a desired result, usually by techniques described in various conceptual systems.” ~Wikipedia
Now that sounds like a rather roundabouts type of definition if you ask me, though it works as an excellent example. To state it somewhat more simply, magic is the practice of trying to achieve a goal in part through non-physical ways (Almost all magic is augmented by more mundane activities). In either case, I do not see how our definition of magic is separate from your definition of prayer.
Though one could argue quite easily that prayer lacks the finesse of magic, right off the bat I don’t see how you differentiate from the two. My understanding of prayer is that you simply announce an intention, usually so someone who is dead, and that somehow they make this happen. That sounds a lot like you are trying to achieve a goal in a non-physical manner.
Sounds a little familiar if you ask me.

Just to clear the air, I don’t actually believe that they are the same, and I don’t think that anyone who’s a serious practitioner of Witchcraft would come to that conclusion, however I was simply curious how you Christians defined the difference.
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Magic is an attempt to place yourself in the position of God. You are a creature, not the Creator. Christian prayer is not even close. It assumes a dependence on God.
 
Thank you all for your comments, I think I’ve gained a little bit of your perspective on the matter.

To (name removed by moderator):
I would presume that you used a web translator, like Google Translate, to get that definition. Am I correct? As is typical with that type of translator, it isn’t wrong, but it completely lacks depth. In Gaelic, they pretty much only had one word for Witchcraft. Therefore that word was used by the Celtic people to refer to the native practitioners of Witchcraft, which happened to follow the Druidic tradition. Therefore it is easy to understand why a translator would have said it meant “Druid” instead of “Witchcraft”. It’s not an incorrect translation, but like I said, it lacks depth.
I happen not to be a druid, though I do have a soft spot for many of the Celtic traditions.

On the subject of Gandalf:
Yes, I agree that Gandalf does not do anything to violate the laws of nature in LoTR. Then again, no Witch does. Magic is completely natural, and therefore does not violate any of its laws.
As far as him not actually using magic, you have a point, but are technically incorrect. Right off the bat I’m going to point out that he illuminated the end of his staff in Moria.
Though that’s beside the point. I personally am of the belief that though magic is both natural and safe, it should be practiced with responsibility. Part of that, again - purely in my opinion, is using it frugally. Most things can be done via the mundane way and there is little difference.
Galadriel cannot perform magic and nor can Gandalf. Both have certain powers inherent to their nature, just as a bird can fly or fish can swim so they can make use of these abilities.
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I wouldn’t disagree with that, though what you probably don’t realize is that you made my point for me. We, as humans, have the capability to do magic inherent in our nature. It isn’t something that only a couple of people can do, it isn’t something supernatural, it is completely natural and part of us as humans.
 
Did you notice where I am from Gandalf?
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Actually no, I didn’t check. Though simply being in Ireland does not guarantee a knowledge of Gaelic anyway. It was a great crime what the English did to the Celtic people, and one that’s repercussions are still felt to this day.
I am glad to see you are not claiming to be a Druid though as when people do it irks me greatly when people make that claim for a number of reasons.
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To be honest, it irks me as well. They had an oral tradition, and therefore much of it has been lost. We do not know enough about it to recreate it.
Gandalf illuminated the staff using the power that was inherent to him due to his role as a Maia and one of the servants of the servants of God to place his role in a context Christians can relate to. Also the LOTR is in many ways a firmly Catholic work, not suprisingly given the devout faith of it’s author.
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And that inherent power was… magic. Funny how it works that way.
I do agree that Tolkien found many ways of incorporating Christianity into his writing, though the fact remains that he is one of the best authors in his genera to ever live.

Though however much I would like to debate Tolkien’s works, alas, this thread is not dedicated to that. Then again it’s not really about Gaelic either… It’s seems somehow I’ve drifted off topic.
 
I just like to throw out a small reality check. Discussing the works of Tolken to support a belief in magic and how it does or doesn’t work is somewhat silly. As great an author as he was and as epic his story was, it was and is a work of fiction.

Just adding a little perspective… Hope I didn’t rain on anyone’s parade…

God bless
 
_Gandalf said:
Actually no, I didn’t check. Though simply being in Ireland does not guarantee a knowledge of Gaelic anyway. It was a great crime what the English did to the Celtic people, and one that’s repercussions are still felt to this day.
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Being from Ireland does help somewhat with understanding the Irish language.

Let’s not get into the whole English (actually British, the Scots had an active hand in the rape of their ‘‘fellow Celts’’) vs Irish thing. People on here tend to have a very American view of the whole thing.
 
Or Catholic vs. Protestant.

I’m nowhere near fluent but that is more a result of living in England and having nobody to practice with. I made it an aim to gain competency in Irish as I wasn’t a good dancer and didn’t have an ear for music, I am determined to at least pass a little bit of the culture down to any children I might have assuming I don’t become a priest.
 
As a Pagan, I don’t see how magic is equivalent to prayer. I see magic as something that is more “active”, a practitioner using various techniques to cause change to happen on their own. They might call on deities, but magic doesn’t have to involve deities to be effective. Prayer, on the other hand, is “passive”, by this, I don’t mean that a person is necessarily immobile during prayer, but it is essentially asking a deity (or other intermediary) for help.

If I were Wiccan, for instance, I might cast a protection spell on my house, but I might also simply ask the God/dess to protect me. One involves my focused will and intent, the other involves the intercession of a higher power, that, I think, is a big difference.
 
Hmmm… In magic you are trying to do something on your own, right? In prayer we are asking God for something/ praising him/ thanking him. It isn’t a huge difference, I’ll admit, but the key is THAT PRAYER IS NOT BY OUR OWN POWER. WE HAVE NO POWER OVER WETHER IT IS ANSWERED OR NOT. (and what’s with the Lord of the Rings, anyway?) Also, some of what has been mentioned is a combination, like the Wiccan example.
 
Lokabrenna said:
As a Pagan, I don’t see how magic is equivalent to prayer. I see magic as something that is more “active”, a practitioner using various techniques to cause change to happen on their own. They might call on deities, but magic doesn’t have to involve deities to be effective. Prayer, on the other hand, is “passive”, by this, I don’t mean that a person is necessarily immobile during prayer, but it is essentially asking a deity (or other intermediary) for help.

If I were Wiccan, for instance, I might cast a protection spell on my house, but I might also simply ask the God/dess to protect me. One involves my focused will and intent, the other involves the intercession of a higher power, that, I think, is a big difference.
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Sounds about right to me.

Vanic Paganism. Would that be the worship of the Norse fertility gods?
 
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