Magisterium vs. sola scripture

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I think a more appropriate question to ask is why there has never been a universally accepted canon, even before the Reformation.
Before 400 AD the answer would be, no, there was no universally accepted canon. But with Jerome’s Vulgate of about 400 AD and for the next 1100 years, the answer would be, yes there was. Before 400 AD the early church operated on Apostolic Succession more so than scripture. Basil the Great wrote concerning this:

“Of the dogmas and messages preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety, both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce [Christian] message to a mere term” (The Holy Spirit 27:66 [A.D. 375]).

Apostolic Succession was the pedigree of the Church [still is]. Irenaeus wrote about this:

""It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times—men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.

“With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (*Against Heresies *, 3:3:1–2).

Even after 400 when the first Bible was compiled and translated into the common language of the people and thus named accordingly as the Vulgate [from the Latin word *vulgata meaning ‘common’]. We see Vincent of Lerins writing

"With great zeal and closest attention, therefore, I frequently inquired of many men, eminent for their holiness and doctrine, how I might, in a concise and, so to speak, general and ordinary way, distinguish the truth of the Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical depravity.

"I received almost always the same answer from all of them—that if I or anyone else wanted to expose the frauds and escape the snares of the heretics who rise up, and to remain intact and in sound faith, it would be necessary, with the help of the Lord, to fortify that faith in a twofold manner: first, of course, by the authority of divine law [Scripture] and then by the tradition of the Catholic Church.

"Here, perhaps, someone may ask: ‘If the canon of the scriptures be perfect and in itself more than suffices for everything, why is it necessary that the authority of ecclesiastical interpretation be joined to it?’ Because, quite plainly, sacred Scripture, by reason of its own depth, is not accepted by everyone as having one and the same meaning. . . .

“Thus, because of so many distortions of such various errors, it is highly necessary that the line of prophetic and apostolic interpretation be directed in accord with the norm of the ecclesiastical and Catholic meaning” (The Notebooks [A.D. 434]).

John Norman Kelly a very prominent and highly respected protestant [Church of England]theologian and early church historian wrote also of Apostolic Succession:

“[W]here in practice was [the] apostolic testimony or tradition to be found? . . . The most obvious answer was that the apostles had committed it orally to the Church, where it had been handed down from generation to generation. . . . Unlike the alleged secret tradition of the Gnostics, it was entirely public and open, having been entrusted by the apostles to their successors, and by these in turn to those who followed them, and was visible in the Church for all who cared to look for it” (Early Christian Doctrines, 37).

He goes on to say that, for the early Church Fathers:

“the identity of the oral tradition with the original revelation is guaranteed by the unbroken succession of bishops in the great sees going back lineally to the apostles. . . . [A]n additional safeguard is supplied by the Holy Spirit, for the message committed was to the Church, and the Church is the home of the Spirit. Indeed, the Church’s bishops are . . . Spirit-endowed men who have been vouchsafed ‘an infallible charism of truth’” (ibid.).

He goes to say that, the early Church Fathers were:

“profoundly convinced of the futility of arguing with heretics merely on the basis of Scripture. The skill and success with which they twisted its plain meaning made it impossible to reach any decisive conclusion in that field” (ibid., 41).

Somethings never change as this goes on today with the sola scripturists. The only difference is that the early heretics did not deny Apostolic Succession as do protestants.
 
Well, as I have often said, since Luther gets the blame/credit, it seems the Lutheran position should be the default, and what any one else says is a morphing of it. 😉

Jon
I think the morphing was guaranteed by the initial premise. 😉

There is nothing to stop anyone from saying that Lutheran documents are not meeting the test of Scripture, which is in effect, what all of the morphed Sola Scripturists are saying.

The ONLY way to prevent the guaranteed morphing, is for Lutherans to declare themselves infallible first, and that their interpretation of Scripture is also infallible. Of course, that would also nullify the Lutheran documents of Sola Scriptura. Quite a conundrum. :confused:
 
Thanks for the responses. I put the two books on my reading list. I also put the Catholic Catechism on my reading list, but it’ll probably take me awhile to read through it. I read through the encyclopedia and Catechism posting.
The church magisterium (Sacred tradition + scripture) is infallible. How can you be Sure the tradition is without error? Two thoughts come to mind: First the argument is circular; essentially an appeal to authority - The sacred tradition is without error because it is without error. In the book of acts the Jewish Christians told some proselytes that they had to be circumcised to be saved. At the time (prior to the council) it would have been thought of as oral tradition.
Second when Jesus established the Church did he say anything specifically to the effect that the oral teaching of the church was guaranteed to be without error?
Does the church teach that it’s social and political doctrines, such as gun control and immigration reform, are without error? I’m not sure I can agree with the Church’s gubn control position.
No, we can’t be sure the tradition is without error. It’s a faith thing. And we must also realize it is simply a Catholic tradition that scripture is without error. Illogically, Protestants, while denying the Catholic Church’s authority to teach, then accept the teaching of the Catholic Church on the truthfullness of the bible!

Also, scripture is simply written down oral tradition. So we must conclude that if the oral tradition is not guaranteed to be without error, then scripture, too, is not guaranteed to be without error. Therefore, to retain our faith, we must conclude that oral tradition is without error to begin with.

But here is an example of circular reasoning: we believe the bible is without error because it says it is inspired of God. But, what if God is lying? Well, the answer to that is that the bible says God cannot lie!
 
I have never heard of any other church claiming the same infallibility. Who is doing this other than the Catholic Church?

.
One of the things the Reformation did was deny that there was such a thing as an authoritative interpreter of scripture. “A ploughboy with a bible in his hand is equal to the pope in Rome.”

However, some Protestants, in keeping with the spirit to protest, have protested against that. Viewing the chaotic condition of Protestantism, they realized the need for an authoritative interpreter. For example, Joseph Smith started the Mormon Church to fill that need, and Charles Taze Russell established the Watchtower Society. These churches are the authoritative interpreters of scripture for their members. Their members must go along with what their respective organizations teach. Forget individual interpretation.

These are examples of the Reformation gone to seed. The Reformation reforming itself.
 
No, we can’t be sure the tradition is without error. It’s a faith thing. And we must also realize it is simply a Catholic tradition that scripture is without error. Illogically, Protestants, while denying the Catholic Church’s authority to teach, then accept the teaching of the Catholic Church on the truthfullness of the bible!

Also, scripture is simply written down oral tradition. So we must conclude that if the oral tradition is not guaranteed to be without error, then scripture, too, is not guaranteed to be without error. Therefore, to retain our faith, we must conclude that oral tradition is without error to begin with.

But here is an example of circular reasoning: we believe the bible is without error because it says it is inspired of God. But, what if God is lying? Well, the answer to that is that the bible says God cannot lie!
Hold on here. Are speakingt here of Tradition or tradition.? Tradition [upper casel “T”] is Apostolic Tradition otherwise known as Oral Tradition and is what Paul referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:15. Paul said we are to hold onto it just as we would the written Tradition. Here the word Tradition means ‘teaching’. But the word tradition [lower case “t”] refers to custom or habit as in a family tradition. Both the Oral Tradition and the Written Tradition emanate from the same source, that being the Holy Spirit, therefore both are without error.
 
Hold on here. Are speakingt here of Tradition or tradition.? Tradition [upper casel “T”] is Apostolic Tradition otherwise known as Oral Tradition and is what Paul referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:15. Paul said we are to hold onto it just as we would the written Tradition. Here the word Tradition means ‘teaching’. But the word tradition [lower case “t”] refers to custom or habit as in a family tradition. Both the Oral Tradition and the Written Tradition emanate from the same source, that being the Holy Spirit, therefore both are without error.
Capital T Tradition of course. I believe that is what the OP meant, even if he didn’t capitalize it. It is our faith that the Church’s teachings come from the Holy Spirit.
 
The “Bible” was given to the world by the Catholic Church. The New Testament was written by Catholics; the Gospels before the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
The books that actually are declared as the inspired Word of God was decided by Pope Damasus at a Council of Rome in 382, confirmed at the Councils of Hippo, 393, Carthage III 397, Carthage IV in 419 and canonised at the Council of Trent (1545-1563) – 46 books in the Old Testament, 27 books in the New Testament.
 
I think the morphing was guaranteed by the initial premise. 😉
Defining easily misinterpreted scriptures as a “rule” is placing the ego which interprets it in charge. No sooner did the revolt get underway than Calvin declared Luther in error and Zwingli declared both of them in error. This process has repeated until none of the reformation churches exist in their original state. Not one. Spiritual entropy on display.

Rejecting the very concept of the Acts 15 Church was to open Pandora’s box. We know them (doctrines) by their fruit.
 
Much less circular than the pope is infallible ex cathedra because the pope infallibly said so. 😃
Straw man
The BoC is subject to scripture because scripture is the final norm. Al teachers, doctrines, etc., are accountable to scripture. Hermeneutics, OTOH, is a practice of the Church, and the BoC is a document of the Church.
So is your cannon of Scripture subject to the BoC or your church? Either way that would make a huge difference on what the “final” authority says.
Well, we don’t accept the Roman Catholic councils, but we do accept the seven ecumenical councils of the early Church.
They were all Catholic Councils
Accept the DC’s as what? Part of scripture? Sure. Even Luther did. We also recognize that from the time of St. Jerome up until the Council of Trent, there were Catholics who disputed them. We take that dispute into account.
Luther certainly did not accept the DC’s as equal to all other Scripture.
Some factual errors here.
  1. If you have a source that shows where Luther claims he did not want the NT Antilegomena included, please present it. I have asked this numerous times, and no one seems to have it.
I did not say all the Antilegomena. And he certainly did not consider some books that Protestants consider canonical today, on the same level as Scripture i.e. threw it out of the same level as Scripture.

Preface to Hebrews 1522 version “Up to this point we have had to do with the true and certain chief books of the New Testament. The four which follow have from ancient times had a different reputation.”

So let me put my understanding into terms you might better understand:

Where in Scripture does it say that Scripture has a hierarchy?
  1. Luther’s translation, once completed, ALWAYS had 74 books. There is no Luther translation that had 66.
Do you mean 73 books or 74?

So… was ML right in this? How did he, or you, know that other books that teach Christ didn’t belong in there?
  1. The DC’s do not appear “shoved to the back” in Luther’s translation. They appear between the OT and NT. Considering that, historically, that’s the period of time they cover, it isn’t an unreasonable placement.
semantics
I think a more appropriate question to ask is why there has never been a universally accepted canon, even before the Reformation.

Jon
Cite where the Catholic Church councils debated the canon of Scripture again after the Councils in the early 5th Century.

Individual Lutherans disagree with you about the canon of Scripture. Does that mean the canon of Lutheran Scriptures is still not defined?
 
Well, as I have often said, since Luther gets the blame/credit, it seems the Lutheran position should be the default, and what any one else says is a morphing of it. 😉

Jon
Which “Lutheran” position. I’ve dealt with several, each claiming it is the authoritative position.
 
Quote:
=PoorKnight;11168236]So wait… the Book of Concord is subject to the Bible, but the BoC says it judges whether or not something out of the Bible is doctrine or dogma?

I’m not an expert in logic, but this sounds very circular…
Much less circular than the pope is infallible ex cathedra because the pope infallibly said so. 😃 The BoC is subject to scripture because scripture is the final norm. Al teachers, doctrines, etc., are accountable to scripture. Hermeneutics, OTOH, is a practice of the Church, and the BoC is a document of the Church.
Actualy when you look at it the Catholic position is not circular but rather a spiral. The Pope is infallible not because the Pope said so but because the Holy Spirit said so. Mt 16:18-19 is the reference. Protestants like to forget that passage but unfortunately for them it is in their Bible. Maybe someday they will get around to removing it also. Then they can come up with another man made tradition similiar to sola scriptura and like sola scriptura, with as many definitions. Maybe as many as there are protestant denominations. Who knows how far protestantism will go?
 
Hi Jon,
JonNC;11168898
Accept the DC’s as what? Part of scripture? Sure. Even Luther did.
You mean Luther accepted the DC’s as inspired scripture? Good for him. Too bad many subsequent Protestants haven’t.
We also recognize that from the time of St. Jerome up until the Council of Trent, there were Catholics who disputed them. We take that dispute into account.
And there were Catholics who disputed Revelation, Hebrews, James, Peter, at one time as well.

Mack
 
:)My understanding is that the Catholic Church teaches that it has a body of doctrine that is in addition to scripture. It seems to me that the debate over praying to saints, the nature of the sacraments, the authority of the church, ETC. really boils down to whether or not this body of tradition that is in addition to the bible is legitimate or not. Can anyone recommend some books on this subject? Specifically how the church can claim to have a body of authoritative tradition in addition to the bible and what is the basis for that authority?

Thanks for your time
Well, the answer may not satisfy you, but it is the truth. The Catholic Church precedes the Bible. The Catholic Church assembled the bible. Oral traditions, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit led to the writing of the Gospels, the letters, and the Apocalypse. The Old Testament are the Jewish scriptures which preceded even Christianity. If oral tradition and the Catholic Church are the Chicken, and the Bible is the Egg, the Chicken came first.

The Catholic Church is charged, by Jesus Christ, by the power of the Holy Spirit to protect, save, and interpret the Holy scriptures. The Bishops under apostolic succession, (magesterium) carry out charge.

This is supposed to prevent private interpretation, which leads to error, heresy, and apostasy. To keep the Church pure in her teachings regarding faith an morals.

There is evidence of this in scripture itself, while there is no evidence in scripture which supports the idea of sola scriptura, which is wholly unscriptural.

This argument will circulate as long as there are protest-ants. That is Christians in protest of the one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, founded by Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, and carried through all of history since that time by Her Bishops.

We hold the scriptures to be Holy. Nearly all dogmas and doctrines of the Church are based directly on Holy Scripture. The very few which don’t have direct scriptural links, are still based on scriptural teachings and theology. Nobody is just sitting around independently and making this stuff up for their own amusement. It’s not reasonable to think that this is the case, when one examines the whole of Christian history, and studies the writings of the Church over the millennia.

I’ll be happy, in subsequent posts to present scriptural passages, church fathers, doctors, saints, popes, and bishops. But this is the summary answer to your question.

Given a choice between the 15th century theological error of sola scriptura, and the magesterial authority of the Catholic Church, I will go with the Catholic Church.

Put me down for one vote for the magesterium. (which I believe in, but can’t spell according to my browsers spell checker. (?) 😉

Yours in Christ,

Steve
 
=PoorKnight;11173918]Straw man
No. It was a joke, indicated by the :D.
So is your cannon of Scripture subject to the BoC or your church? Either way that would make a huge difference on what the “final” authority says.
No. the BoC is subject to scripture.
They were all Catholic Councils
Not all of them ecumenical, only the first 7.
Luther certainly did not accept the DC’s as equal to all other Scripture.
Luther had his opinions, permitted to all Catholics before Trent.
I did not say all the Antilegomena. And he certainly did not consider some books that Protestants consider canonical today, on the same level as Scripture i.e. threw it out of the same level as Scripture.
I don’t know about protestants, but Lutherans certainly consider them canonical, but we recognize the dispute regarding them through Church history.
Preface to Hebrews 1522 version “Up to this point we have had to do with the true and certain chief books of the New Testament. The four which follow have from ancient times had a different reputation.”
Code:
**“*t is still a marvelously fine epistle. It discusses Christ’s priesthood masterfully and profoundly on the basis of the Scriptures and extensively interprets the Old Testament in a fine way, Thus it is plain that this is the work of an able and learned man; as a disciple of the apostles he had learned much from them and was greatly experienced in faith and practiced in the Scriptures. And although, as he himself testifies in chapter 6:1], he does not lay the foundation of faith—that is the work of the apostles—nevertheless he does build well on it with gold, silver, precious stones, as St. Paul says in I Corinthians 3:12]. Therefore we should not be deterred if wood, straw, or hay are perhaps mixed with them, but accept this fine teaching with all honor; though, to be sure, we cannot put it on the same level with the apostolic epistles.”   ***  - Luther
So let me put my understanding into terms you might better understand:
Where in Scripture does it say that Scripture has a hierarchy?
Where in scripture does it say it doesn’t. More precisely, where in scripture does it say that the Church can’t consider the disputes regarding certain books? The Church, after all, has a teach role.
Do you mean 73 books or 74?
  1. He included The Prayer of Manasseh.
So… was ML right in this? How did he, or you, know that other books that teach Christ didn’t belong in there?
My sense is, while he obviously made great effort to include them, he could have given them even greater deference.
semantics
Accuracy.
Cite where the Catholic Church councils debated the canon of Scripture again after the Councils in the early 5th Century.
Not aware of any, at least not ecumenical ones.
Individual Lutherans disagree with you about the canon of Scripture. Does that mean the canon of Lutheran Scriptures is still not defined?
The confessions don’t list certain books, again reflecting a great deal of respect for the discussions about the canon over the history of the Church. Many Lutherans would probably disagree with my assessment of Luther’s opinion above. None should question my right to have it. But neither mine nor theirs matters, as it is the Church that practices hermeneutics.

Jon
 
What? sorry I am confused…which catholic poster has said presbyter ordination is valid?
I’m not going to go back and look, but one said that, so long as the pope gave permission, presbyter ordination, such as took place with the Cistercian abbots was valid.

Lutherans believe they are valid, not simply because of the Cistercian abbots, but by divine law, when there are no bishops available or willing to ordain, as was the practice in the early Church, as well.

Jon
 
I would disagree. Sola scriptura does not exclude the authority of the Church to teach and set doctrine. In fact, it supports that role. The Church is the pillar of truth precisely because serves scripture.

Jon
Well you got it half right. The Church is the pillar of truth but Paul also said it was the foundation (bulwark) of truth. No where did any of the inspired writers ever say that the church serves scripture or that scripture was the foundation (bulwark) of truth. You made that up because it was convenient just asyou made up your claim that some Scandanavian bishops had Apostolic Succession. When I called you on it you claimed that you did not have it at your finger tips. Good reason for that being the case. Because it never happened. I did the research for you, Jon. Here is what I found:

"The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America embraces apostolic succession. This has been true since Called to Common Mission, an agreement of full communion with the Episcopal Church of the USA, took effect a decade ago. When our bishops are installed (only pastors are ordained) a bishop who holds apostolic succession (often an Episcopal bishop) is present.

Agreeing to this was not simple, because North American Lutherans have long rejected it. But the churchwide assembly accepted the argument that full communion was more important than staying divided from the Episcopalians over this.

Apparently different Lutheran churches have different practices, with two Scandinavian state churches being the most notable proponents of apostolic succession (source):

•Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Finland
•Church of Sweden

These churches don’t have the Sacrament of Holy Orders, as Luther rejected it. Still, bishops, priests and deacons are ordained, thus retaining apostolic succession.

A chart of the succession shows how Luther (an ordained Catholic priest) passed the succession to Mikael Agricola, the bishop of Turku, Finland."

christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/2456/how-is-lutheran-apostolic-succession-conferred

WHAT??? Let me repeat those last two gems:

"These churches don’t have the Sacrament of Holy Orders, as Luther rejected it. Still, bishops, priests and deacons are ordained, thus retaining apostolic succession."

How can there be Apostolic Succession without Holy Orders??? There can’t be.

Then the second gem:

B]A chart of the succession shows how Luther (an ordained Catholic priest) passed the succession to Mikael Agricola, the bishop of Turku, Finland.

"So the succession goes from priest to bishop??? When was Luther empowered to ordain another priest let alone consecrate a bishop??? You guys got it backward. No priest, Catholic or otherwise, has Apostolic Succession. That is entirely contained in the office of bishop. A bishop can delegate authority to a priest which they normally do for the sacraments of Baptism, Reconciliation, Eucharist, Marriage and Last Rites. And they can delegate the authority to administer Holy Orders and Confirmation but usually these are retained by the bishop unless extrordinary circumstances exist. But NO BISHOP ever granted authority to Luther to administer Holy Orders. So Luther had no apostolic succession so how could he give it to someone else?

Lots of good questions Jon. Got any good answers?
 
=pablope;11174346]
Well…Okay…how or when did the Scripture say the BoC is correct in its understanding or interpretation? How did the Scripture accomplish this…say or state it is the correct interpretation or understanding?
That would be the job of the Church, under its teaching role, to hold the teachings of the BoC accountable to scripture.
Which, again I may add…let Jerome to later consider it sinful to continue to do so and submitted to the judgement of the Churches.
Anyway…in citing Jerome…would a Lutheran feel the same as Jerome in feeling sinful if one continues to dispute the DCs?
But Jerome held the opinion, and had the Catholic freedom to do so. He also has the privilege to have the opinion, later, that his previous opinion was sinful (not sure that’s exactly what he said, but I’ll take your word for it). I’ve already answered that Lutherans continue to have the privilege, once held by all Catholics prior to Trent, to dispute and question certain books. No, I don’t believe it sinful.
And if as you say…you are part of the Church…and if the Church spoke at Trent and said to consider them part of the canon…so why continue to dispute them…why not throw that dispute to the past?
Because Trent only speaks for those in communion with the Bishop of Rome. It isn’t ecumenical, and therefore does not speak for the whole Church.
As I recall, LUther did the same with 4 NT books…relegated them to the back…so what is the difference?
The difference is that this was his opinion.
Because it was never a source of dispute and the Bible was meant for reading in the church and edification of the faithful…not a source of the extraction of doctrine.
And my contention has been that the failure of Tradition to hold the unity of the Church put the Reformers in a position of looking to scripture for that role. Fix that break, seal that schism, and it seems there would be no need for it, in my view.

Jon
 
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