Main Reason For Atheism

[Gilbert_Keith]

MONARCHY

How am I attacking religion?
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The following are excerpts from previous posts of yours on other threads. They eloquently answer your own question.
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there are far to many inconcistencies (sp?) and out right contradictions for the bible to be innerant.
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I would argue that most atheists have better ethics then theists.

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God is also the source of ALL evil. NO ONE deserves eternal torture. God is still culpable as far as you say because he created and allows people to go to hell. If he were acctually as ‘merciful’ as…

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To combat the untruths told about atheism, the same way a catholic might go on a baptist board to defend catholisim. Ignorance breeds hatred.

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May I say that this is why I am not a religious person. All this talk about God (or Allah) being so loving, but then throwing a person with no problems into eternal torture. That is not, and never…

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Please prove that he (Jesus) even existed, let alone gave his life.

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I remember seeing this on a bumper sticker once:*
**”If going to church makes you a christian, ***
does going to a garage make you a car?”

**

I can’t speak for others, but I come here to challenge the untrue things said about atheists.

**

Acctually, I am an atheist. I was attempting to show what the bible says about witchcraft,etc. because of everyone claiming what a “moral” tome it is. I didn’t mean to offend.

**

Oh yes the Raping of 32,000 virgins at God’s command is ‘wonderful’. So is the 42 children being ripped to peices by two shebears. And how about the cursing of the fig tree? That’s like cursing summer cause it isn’t snowing… Sounds silly to me.

Every one of these quotes indicates varying degrees of contempt for religion and in particular the Judeo-Christian tradition.

 

[john_doran]

Monarchy:

Yes but god is supposed to be all-seeing correct? So even more analgolous (sp?) would be that you can see the future and you know that the person is going to jump in front of your gun, yet knowing this you still fire it. Are you still not moraly culpable?

not necessarily, but even if you were, it’s a disanalogy: god isn’t pulling any triggers.

what god does is create us and then say, “choose between being with me or not being with me”. then we choose to walk over to him, or to turn our backs. and that’s it.

 

[Singinbeauty]

john doran:

not necessarily, but even if you were, it’s a disanalogy: god isn’t pulling any triggers.

what god does is create us and then say, “choose between being with me or not being with me”. then we choose to walk over to him, or to turn our backs. and that’s it.

Very well said… I would go even further as to say that you spend your life rejecting the fact that God is real and present… You obviously know of the consequences of that choice… So you can never say you didn’t know. YOU are the one to make the choice of being with Him or forever separated from Him because YOU chose not to believe He exists.

Have you even TRIED looking for Him? The bible tells us that if you seek God, TRULY seek Him, you will find Him.

 

[Monarchy]

Gilbert Keith:

Every one of these quotes indicates varying degrees of contempt for religion and in particular the Judeo-Christian tradition.

So, because I don’t buy the christian idea hook line and sinker I am ‘attacking religon’. Let me tell you know something, most of the ‘contempt’ you see is from me seeking honest answers and having recived nothing but attitude EXACTLY like yours. The “Shut up and Believe” ****. I will not shut down the reason center in my brain because of a threat from a god you can not show to exist. I see so many people who use the bible like a buffet, they take what they want and leave the rest. If it is the word of god, then we should be stoning to death unrully sons, homosexuals, and people who work on the sabbath. Don’t belive we should? Then you disagree with the bible.

 

[Monarchy]

john doran:

not necessarily, but even if you were, it’s a disanalogy: god isn’t pulling any triggers.

what god does is create us and then say, “choose between being with me or not being with me”. then we choose to walk over to him, or to turn our backs. and that’s it.

no he says “choose between being with me or torture”.

 

[Monarchy]

Singinbeauty:

Very well said… I would go even further as to say that you spend your life rejecting the fact that God is real and present… You obviously know of the consequences of that choice… So you can never say you didn’t know. YOU are the one to make the choice of being with Him or forever separated from Him because YOU chose not to believe He exists.

Could you honestly chose to believe in something for which there is no proof? Unicorns for instance? Bigfoot, Alien abductions, Oiji(sp?) boards, leprechauns, faires, telekenisis, etc…? Can you just turn off you reason center and believe in them (assuming you don’t already)?

Have you even TRIED looking for Him? The bible tells us that if you seek God, TRULY seek Him, you will find Him.

What makes you think I haven’t? Because I’m an atheist? I would wager I spend more time thinking about religion then most people. I would like to believe in god, I really would. It would be nice to believe that there is someone/something out there that loves me and wants to help. But unfortunately when I use my reasoning skills, I see absoulutly no reason to believe. There are several things in the bible that I find absoulutly moraly reprehensable. To ‘Chose’ to belive would mean I need to abandon reason and morality, which I will not do.

 

[cheddarsox]

It is true that the “cultural” idea of hell is a place where active torture/punishment is meted out. But I believe that the church teachings (ala John Paul II) is that hell is a state of being, and the pain and suffering of hell is due to the seperation from the divine. But the divine is not actively punishing.

This does differ with the firey lake scenario mentioned in the NT. but does fit with the wailing and gnashing of teeth, of the torment of lost souls.

So, traditionally, hell is a place of active torment, and I do hear and see people talk about God sending people to hell, how people will burn in hell etc. But the actual explanation of the last pope (I am not sure if that constitutes actual church teaching or not) is that God does not actively send people to hell, nor are they punished, they are merely feeling the horrendous effects of seperation.

I just thought that I would add that to balance the conversation, because I am not sure if even all Catholics had read or heard those words of the pope, and I think they are theologically important.

cheddar

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

MONARCHY

There are several things in the bible that I find absoulutly moraly reprehensable. To ‘Chose’ to belive would mean I need to abandon reason and morality, which I will not do.

More attack on religion, I see. You just don’t get it. This “reasoning” faculty of which you boast is not kicking in. Youy can’t say you are only in this forum to explain and defend atheism and then spend your best efforts attacking the Judeo-Christian heritage. Is that your example of logical reasoning?

If you would just get to the point of admitting why you are in this forum … to win people over to atheism by slamming religion … at least then you would get some respect for truth-telling from this poster. Until then, I see you as a very angry person dumping on Christians at their own web site. When you are exposed for that … you needn’t go howling “foul play!”

 

[Singinbeauty]

Gilbert Keith:

MONARCHY

There are several things in the bible that I find absoulutly moraly reprehensable. To ‘Chose’ to belive would mean I need to abandon reason and morality, which I will not do.

More attack on religion, I see. You just don’t get it. This “reasoning” faculty of which you boast is not kicking in. Youy can’t say you are only in this forum to explain and defend atheism and then spend your best efforts attacking the Judeo-Christian heritage. Is that your example of logical reasoning?

I have to say that I haven’t seen him trying to attack ‘religion’. He is just saying that by his reasoning and research he has found it very hard to understand and believe. He isn’t saying that we are idiots (as far as I interpret) or that this ‘religion’ is idiotic, per se. Just that he does not understand or believe in a God who he perceives as un-loving. (I don’t want to put words in your mouth Monarch so let me know if I don’t have it right ) He isn’t trying to convert any of us to atheism in fact it sounds more like he is here to reach an understanding. To quash falsehoods about atheism and to truly seek an answer.

Isn’t that we all are doing? Catholics go to ‘protestant’ boards to quash falsehoods about their belief system and protestants (such as myself) come to this board to quash falsehoods about what I believe and learn more about catholocism.

If you would just get to the point of admitting why you are in this forum … to win people over to atheism by slamming religion … at least then you would get some respect for truth-telling from this poster. Until then, I see you as a very angry person dumping on Christians at their own web site. When you are exposed for that … you needn’t go howling “foul play!”

This is a VERY angry response. So much hostility towards someone who is here to discuss their beliefs in comparrison to ours… Learn a little compassion there dude… Even if you perceive him as being a ‘hostile’ person, God has sent him here for a reason and we need to show love and not anger.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Singin’beauty

I see you are Christian but not Catholic. Sounds like you are a little angry too.

You need to understand first what apologetics is all about. It’s about debating religious principles. It’s not about telling people you are not attacking their religion and then going in for the kill.

See post # 101 if you think Monarchy has not attacked…

Please reserve your admonishments for people who misrepresent themselves in this forum.

Thanking you in the spirit of Christian Unity and Charity,
Gilbert

 

[bapcathluth]

Yes, singin beauty, there is a great deal of hostility in Gilbert Keith’s post. He became very hostile to me as well, didn’t you Gilbert?

I understand your feeling strongly about your beliefs, and I am glad you have so much faith. But you shouldn’t have posted your question if you didn’t want people to answer it.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

If insistence upon honesty and correcting people who misrepresent themselves is considered hostile, I can only plead guilty.

One does expect a certain amount of civility from non-Catholics on this board … and above all … honesty.

Not getting that, there can be no meaningful dialogue. So I welcome your comments, but I insist also on your civility. If that sounds like anger … maybe you are barking up the wrong tree?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

So as to get this thread back on track, I’ll ask again:

What are the main reasons for being an atheist?

The answer is not to attack Christianity or any other religion, but to explain what there is in atheism that makes it a worthy philosophy of life. What “truthfulness” is there in atheism? What “goodness” is there in it? What “beauty” is there in it? There has to be some attraction to the philosophy. Or is it just a fallback position for those who are not religious? But if so, why choose atheism rather than agnosticism or pantheism or some other ism?

 

[Singinbeauty]

Gilbert Keith:

MONARCHY

How am I attacking religion?

Right here he even states that he feels he isn’t attacking religion… I would like to go through the thoughts that he brings up to answer his questions, which is why he is here, rather than accuse him of attacking ‘religion’ which I haven’t seen yet…

The following are excerpts from previous posts of yours on other threads. They eloquently answer your own question.

there are far to many inconcistencies (sp?) and out right contradictions for the bible to be innerant.

Monarch, there are people who are christians and non-christians alike that feel, because of the MANY translations out there, that the bible cannot be completely inerrant. There are things that SEEM to contradict in the bible but with history and knowledge of the times back then the ‘inconsinstancies’ that pop up can be explained away. But since we are human we tend to limit our belief that God can be in charge of making sure HIS word gets the message across.

I would argue that most atheists have better ethics then theists.

Yes, there are SOME atheists out there who have better ethics than SOME christians because we are all HUMAN. Some things and focus’s get distorted when our human’ness gets in the way. But I cannot say that MOST of either side has better ethics because it is on an individual to individual basis.

God is also the source of ALL evil. NO ONE deserves eternal torture. God is still culpable as far as you say because he created and allows people to go to hell. If he were acctually as ‘merciful’ as…

Now I know I am going to get flamed for this but… I would agree that God has created a world that allows evil in it… I have often been discouraged of our world and that God would allow such horrible things to happen to His children. The plagues, natural disasters, and evil men/women that walk this earth. But something I read in a book at one point made a TON of sense. It’s ‘A Case For Faith’ by Lee Strobel. I would encourage you to pick it up as it has many answers to what you speak of. As for the suffering in this world, can you create ‘UTOPIA’ without the choice of evil? No. Because in order for us to have the CHOICE to choose God and choose Good then there has to be a choice for evil. It’s no choice at all if there is no second or ‘B’ choice. It’s not that God allows evil, per se, but He does (because He knows the importance of Free Will) allow the choice for evil. Does this make sense?

To combat the untruths told about atheism, the same way a catholic might go on a baptist board to defend catholisim. Ignorance breeds hatred.

This statement is so true and I don’t see how it can be viewed as attacking ‘religion’. Without understanding of other beliefs we tend to hate them and breed false ideas about them. Catholics should be the FIRST to agree with this statement. You are forever telling me and others how you feel attacked because those on the outside think you are idol worshipping cannabals. If you expect respect for what you believe then you have to respect others for theirs. It’s a two way street… You may not agree with it but you catch more flies with honey…

May I say that this is why I am not a religious person. All this talk about God (or Allah) being so loving, but then throwing a person with no problems into eternal torture. That is not, and never…

Monarch… Who said that God didn’t have a problem with this? This is a common misunderstanding with those who are not believers. God is pained everytime someone chooses to believe that He does not exist. He wants everyone to enjoy the bountiful blessings that He has in store when this hurting world passes away. But if someone continuously rejects Him and tells Him that He does not exist they are the ones who are creating the separation from Him… Not Him. He is trying to draw you closer to Him and you keep pushing Him away. It’s YOUR heart that decides where you end up… Not Him. You have been given the knowledge of what is to come and it’s up to you to decide which side you want to support.

Please prove that he (Jesus) even existed, let alone gave his life.

This is one of my favorite questions to answer… There is so much evidence of Jesus’ life and existance that not even the history books deny He lived on this earth. One of my high school history books said that a man named Jesus did live in ancient times. I went to a public school by the way. Another book by Lee Strobel is ‘A Case For Christ’ in which, as an ATHEIST he explores whether or not Jesus actually exsisted and what His claims were for that time. It’s a good read.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Continued from above…

I remember seeing this on a bumper sticker once:
"If going to church makes you a christian, does going to a garage make you a car?”

The answer is NO. Going to church doesn’t make you a christian and I wouldn’t know where someone would get that silly idea. It’s what is in your heart that determines your status of being christian or not. What you believe makes your christian not the building you stand in.

I can’t speak for others, but I come here to challenge the untrue things said about atheists.

And I am glad you are here! Stick around and ask your questions and thank you for offering your answers for questions we may have of your beliefs… Welcome!

Acctually, I am an atheist. I was attempting to show what the bible says about witchcraft,etc. because of everyone claiming what a “moral” tome it is. I didn’t mean to offend.

Hmmmmm… I didn’t mean to offend… Sure doesn’t sound like he was trying to attack anyone there… And without knowing the context, it is probably a misinterpretation he has of what the bible is talking about.

Oh yes the Raping of 32,000 virgins at God’s command is ‘wonderful’. So is the 42 children being ripped to peices by two shebears. And how about the cursing of the fig tree? That’s like cursing summer cause it isn’t snowing… Sounds silly to me.

Monarch… there is a little bit of research that has to be done on these two subjects. If you can let me know as to what stories you are talking about I can better help you understand what they are talking about.

I have any idea about the ‘42 children being ripped to peices by two shebears’ though. This is actually a misconception of what really happened and it has to do with the translation. This is the story about Elisha and the ‘children’ who were taunting him… am I correct?

The fact of the matter is that these 42 ‘children’ were not children at all. They were ‘young men’ according to the correct interpretation of the original Hebrew. Between the ages of 12 and 30. The same word that is interpreted as ‘children’ is used later on as a discription for men in an army. Apparently this was street gang according to the original writings that was threatning Elisha as he travelled the road. You might ask what kind of threats are being made just by saying something about baldness but that actually isn’t the case. Apon further study you find that they were actually attacking God’s charactor and the things that Elisha claimed. In those days, and in the context of the story, Elisha’s life was in danger by the claims that this group was making. They were circling around him and trying to break his guard much like a gang might corner you on the street and start taunting you before they strike. Being in danger Elisha cursed them. It says 42 were maulled but doesn’t say that that was the total number of them. There could have been many more.

Every one of these quotes indicates varying degrees of contempt for religion and in particular the Judeo-Christian tradition.

I still don’t see it. I see misunderstanding, confustion, and misinterpretation. But no attacking… Just because someone doesn’t believe the same as you does not mean that they are attacking you or your beliefs when they mention the differences or their misunderstanding…

God Bless!

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

"If going to church makes you a christian, does going to a garage make you a car?”

Singin’ Beauty

The reason you don’t see this as an attack on religion escapes me. What he is saying is that there is no connection between going to church and being a Christian. In other words, church is not the way to Christian salvation. Do you agree with him?

More to the point, and the better metaphor for a bumper sticker would be:

“We go through the garage to get into the car as we go through the Church to get into Christ.”

The Church is by no means irrelevant … and to imply that it is is an attack upon religion.

If you thionk more deeply about all of the remarks I have cited … you would see that he is attacking religion, not defending atheism.

For example, he tries to plant the seed of doubt that Christ even existed. What more frontal assault on Christianity could be made than that?

I don’t mind your engaging him on this points I have raised in post # 101, but I’d really like to get back to the theme of this thread, which is to explore the attraction of atheism … to identify its inherent worth to those who adhere.

A.J. Ayer, one of the leading atheists of the 20th century, said he hoped that God did not exist. What would be the point of such a hope? What truth, beauty, or goodness would come from it? Ayer never elaborated, to the best of my knowledge … but a recent biography of him that I was thumbing through indicated that he was a rank hedonist. Well, that makes sense. If you are a hedonist … and if you practice pleasure-seeking to the hilt … you know there might be consequences in the next life … so why would you want there to be a next life? So you make sure in your mind that there is no next life by holding there is no God to hold you accountable for any sins of your present life.

Yet I would think that the attraction of this belief for the atheist begins to lose its hold as the atheist approaches the end of his present life and is no longer so certain there is not another one to confront.

 

[Maranatha]

Monarchy:

If it is the word of god, then we should be stoning to death unrully sons, homosexuals, and people who work on the sabbath. Don’t belive we should? Then you disagree with the bible.

The morality of the New Testament has superseded the morality and laws of the Old Testament. The dichotomy you presented is not a problem for Christians.

 

[Singinbeauty]

"If going to church makes you a christian, does going to a garage make you a car?”

Singin’ Beauty

The reason you don’t see this as an attack on religion escapes me. What he is saying is that there is no connection between going to church and being a Christian. In other words, church is not the way to Christian salvation. Do you agree with him?

More to the point, and the better metaphor for a bumper sticker would be:

“We go through the garage to get into the car as we go through the Church to get into Christ.”

The Church is by no means irrelevant … and to imply that it is is an attack upon religion.

I will answer this and then let the thread get on with it’s course… The church, as a physical building, is NOT the way to Christ it is the Church, as in the Body of Christ (US), that is the way to Christ. People get saved every day without stepping one foot into a church building. Going to church every Sunday is not what makes you a christian. A person is saved by believing that Jesus died for THEM and that He is the ONLY way to God. So in essence that bumper sticker is true. Stepping into the church building doesn’t make you a christian anymore than stepping into a garage makes you a car.

And just because he doesn’t agree with you means he is attacking religion??? Why are you so sensitive? That is as silly as saying that just because I state that I don’t personally believe that Mary is all that the catholic faith says she is I am attacking the catholic faith. So what? I disagree… it is allowed you know and it does not mean that the person is attacking you it just means they don’t believe the same.

 

[Maranatha]

Singinbeauty:

Yes, there are SOME atheists out there who have better ethics than SOME christians because we are all HUMAN. Some things and focus’s get distorted when our human’ness gets in the way. But I cannot say that MOST of either side has better ethics because it is on an individual to individual basis.

As C.S. Lewis argues in Mere Christianity, you can’t just compare the morality of believes and non-believers. You need to compare where their individual morality code started and decide weather and how much their belief has improved their moral outlook and actions. This level of judgment can only be accomplished by God.

Monarch… Who said that God didn’t have a problem with this? This is a common misunderstanding with those who are not believers. God is pained everytime someone chooses to believe that He does not exist. He wants everyone to enjoy the bountiful blessings that He has in store when this hurting world passes away. But if someone continuously rejects Him and tells Him that He does not exist they are the ones who are creating the separation from Him… Not Him. He is trying to draw you closer to Him and you keep pushing Him away. It’s YOUR heart that decides where you end up… Not Him. You have been given the knowledge of what is to come and it’s up to you to decide which side you want to support.

As a Catholic, I believe even an Atheist can go to heaven. If an Atheist is trying, to the best of his ability, to search for truth, then he is oriented toward God. The act of denying his existence does not hurt God nearly as much as being apathetic altogether.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

MARANATHA

If you want to argue whether atheists can go to heaven, would you please start your own thread and not hijack this one?

Thank you.
Gilbert