Makeup and vanity?

[Sabda]

No. This does not address the issue of the curse of Eve. This talks about the fall of man. Yes, a tendency toward sin. But the curse of Eve being the desire to lure men? You’ll have to do better than that. I know part of the curse was that “your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you.” Realizing they were naked–still nothing to do with the curse of Eve. I would like to see more specific Church teachings on the curse of Eve.

Some people can’t come close enough to the Church to find Truth because they are offended by the lack of charity (love).

I’m interested in this too. As well as the statement that she KNOWS that the Church will change it’s teaching in regard to make-up.

The only thing I know of that would fall under the “curse of Eve” would be the fact that the Bible states our labor pains have been greatly multiplied. In other words child birth is more painful. That has nothing to do with luring men. In fact I think most woman would kick the man though the wall if he tried to attempt anything during that time.

 

[WordFuzion]

I appreciate those who have enough self confidence to go bare faced…but I think I would be in a constant state of anxiety if I did. I mean, I dress modestly, I don’t wear shorts, my skirts are all knee length or longer, this year I’ve just about totally given up tank tops in exchange for cap sleeve tees in spring/summer. I’ve toned my makeup down, so it’s mostly the natural look with a tint of color around the eyes. But to go completely without it? I’d be completely paranoid.

Is it vanity for you to want people to not point and stare? I might have a slight hang up about this because of my Tourette’s. The tics are bascially under control enough now that most people don’t even realize I have it, but when I was younger it was much worse and yes, people did point and laugh. Not just at school, but in stores, etc. And as many adults as children. I feel like if I don’t have makeup on I’ll be so ugly looking that everyone is going to be completely repelled by me.

Plus my mother and grandmother are both the type that wear makeup at home. I don’t, though I’m told I should because it would help me be more positive thoroughout the day. I mean, I haven’t left the house without it on in fifteen years.

Blah, I’m babbling, but I was looking at myself when I was sitting outside earlier, sans makeup, and other then a little bit of light acne scars on my temples, it wasn’t so bad. I always have circles under my eyes for some reason. But I don’t know…it just made me think of this thread.

 

[lobster]

No. This does not address the issue of the curse of Eve. This talks about the fall of man. Yes, a tendency toward sin. But the curse of Eve being the desire to lure men?

The question then, is what is the consequence of the fall of man? Our unchecked and unrestrained by the will biological nature leads us to vanity and the desire to be attractive so as to “catch” a mate. Before the fall man’s innate desires were totally subject to the will and desires of the flesh could not manifest without explicit consent of the will. Would that not then be a direct effect of the first sin?

 

[lobster]

I’m interested in this too. As well as the statement that she KNOWS that the Church will change it’s teaching in regard to make-up.

Actually, I think someone else made that statement. It wasn’t me. I don’t believe the Church changes it’s teachings. There has to be a teaching to begin with in order for it to be changed. Regarding makeup itself, there isn’t a specific teaching. There are specific teachings however regarding vanity, concupiscence, lust, desires of the flesh, covetessness, etc.

 

[Sabda]

Actually, I think someone else made that statement. It wasn’t me. I don’t believe the Church changes it’s teachings. There has to be a teaching to begin with in order for it to be changed. Regarding makeup itself, there isn’t a specific teaching. There are specific teachings however regarding vanity, concupiscence, lust, desires of the flesh, covetessness, etc.

I know you didn’t make that statement, sorry about that. I was referring to Budgie2. I would like to see her response to this. After all she did make the claim. She needs to back it up.

Having gone back up and reread some of the post made another question spring to my mind. How do we know that Mary didn’t wear some type of make-up? I remember watching the episode about Mary from the Footprints of God series and Steve Ray talked about finding some 1st. century jewelry and how he pictured Mary sitting with her friends and talking about jewelry and even wearing some like his own daughters did when they where younger. After all, as he points out in the video Mary would have been seen as an ordinary Jewish girl. Which meant she would have done ordinary things that people did. So how do we know she didn’t wear make-up?

 

[gabriel22a]

The question then, is what is the consequence of the fall of man? Our unchecked and unrestrained by the will biological nature leads us to vanity and the desire to be attractive so as to “catch” a mate. Before the fall man’s innate desires were totally subject to the will and desires of the flesh could not manifest without explicit consent of the will. Would that not then be a direct effect of the first sin?

All sin stems from the first sin. This still does not answer the question. Unless you are responding that the wearing of makeup is only to attract men, which goes to motive and conscience. You cannot judge this for others. You can only judge this for yourself. If wearing makeup for you is an unchecked, unrestrained, biological primordial yearning to attract men (your words from this and your other posts), then you should by all means stay away from it.

 

[gabriel22a]

Lobster–

Your post still does not answer directly what the curse of Eve is. I understand all about the fall and its result. But you still have not tied it directly to the curse of Eve. Just so that I understand, when you referred to the curse of Eve you were not talking specifically. You were talking in general about the curse of sin. Is this right?

I want to stop asking about the curse of Eve if it is merely your understanding of the result of the fall. I am assuming that you are extrapolating the curse of Eve from this. If that is the case, I understand what you are saying. I don’t agree with you, and I think that calling it the curse of Eve is misleading, as Eve was specifically cursed according to Genesis. And the innate desire to attract men was not mentioned.

Again, all tendency toward sin stems from the fall. But adding to the curse of Eve and judging people by it is a little over the top for me. And it has caused a lot of confusion.

 

[lobster]

I know you didn’t make that statement, sorry about that. I was referring to Budgie2. I would like to see her response to this. After all she did make the claim. She needs to back it up.

Thank you. And I apologize for thinking you were referring to me.

Having gone back up and reread some of the post made another question spring to my mind. How do we know that Mary didn’t wear some type of make-up? I remember watching the episode about Mary from the Footprints of God series and Steve Ray talked about finding some 1st. century jewelry and how he pictured Mary sitting with her friends and talking about jewelry and even wearing some like his own daughters did when they where younger. After all, as he points out in the video Mary would have been seen as an ordinary Jewish girl. Which meant she would have done ordinary things that people did. So how do we know she didn’t wear make-up?

I sometimes wonder the same things. After all Mary was like us in every way but sin.

 

[lobster]

All sin stems from the first sin. This still does not answer the question. Unless you are responding that the wearing of makeup is only to attract men, which goes to motive and conscience. You cannot judge this for others. You can only judge this for yourself. If wearing makeup for you is an unchecked, unrestrained, biological primordial yearning to attract men (your words from this and your other posts), then you should by all means stay away from it.

Sorry It appears I haven’t been clear. I thought I stated that makeup in and of itself is not sinful. It is the intent of the wearer which can make the act of putting on and wearing makeup sinful.

unchecked, unrestrained, biological primordial:
By this I mean that concupiscence causes the desires of the flesh to manifest whether or not the will approves of them. The will determines whether these desires are acted upon. Post fall, these desires are unrestrained and basic biological functions. Pre fall, bodily urges could not present themselves without express consent of the will. Both Pre and Post fall, the will determines whether approval is given. But after the fall, the will does not have control over whether the bodily desire itself exists or not.
Example, Adam could not feel lust unless he willed it before the fall.
After the fall, Adam could feel lust whether he willed it or not, however his will decides whether approval is given to such feelings, it doesn’t make them go away.

Again, makeup is not “unchecked, unrestrained” is not a primordial urge. It is quite possible however for it to support such urge, depending on the intent of the wearer. That is when it becomes sinful.

 

[lobster]

Lobster–

Your post still does not answer directly what the curse of Eve is. I understand all about the fall and its result. But you still have not tied it directly to the curse of Eve. Just so that I understand, when you referred to the curse of Eve you were not talking specifically. You were talking in general about the curse of sin. Is this right?

Yes.

I want to stop asking about the curse of Eve if it is merely your understanding of the result of the fall. I am assuming that you are extrapolating the curse of Eve from this. If that is the case, I understand what you are saying. I don’t agree with you, and I think that calling it the curse of Eve is misleading, as Eve was specifically cursed according to Genesis. And the innate desire to attract men was not mentioned.

It wasn’t mentioned, but it is a reasonable conclusion, since this desire did not plague Eve prior to the fall, it has plagued women since the fall however. Otherwise, why would there be so many women who are willing to sell there bodies in exchange for the lies given to them by men who use them? These women usually are not giving themselves up for the pleasure of sex as more often happens with men. They are giving in to their strong desire for acceptance by these men. Again not speaking specifically, but only in general. I agree it is not our place to judge any particular girl who has found herself giving in to temptation.

 

[budgie2]

Make up can help a woman sell herself. It can make her look glossy like a glossy mag model or a pop star. Lipstick gives me lips that money can buy, foundation and blusher give me skin and cheeks that money can buy. Make up gives my face a price tag. My face without make up is free, I can’t buy it, but it’s also priceless as it is designed by God. My skin colour and lip colour are unique.

Make up is not Mary-like. I think you’ll find most nuns do not wear make up or jewellery for that matter. A lot of lay women wear make up because they do not have any guidelines on appearance like the celibate orders. Make up isn’t necessarily a good for a Christian relationship although it may be necessary in some non-Christian relationships. Not anybody’s fault, that’s just the way it is and not everybody has proper guidance.

 

[Bluegoat]

Yes.

It wasn’t mentioned, but it is a reasonable conclusion, since this desire did not plague Eve prior to the fall, it has plagued women since the fall however. Otherwise, why would there be so many women who are willing to sell there bodies in exchange for the lies given to them by men who use them? These women usually are not giving themselves up for the pleasure of sex as more often happens with men. They are giving in to their strong desire for acceptance by these men. Again not speaking specifically, but only in general. I agree it is not our place to judge any particular girl who has found herself giving in to temptation.

THis doesn’t seem to me to be a gender specific problem. So to call it the curse of Eve seems to be making it too specific, as well as ignoring the particulars of what te story actually says. It rather seems like imposing an already established view of women as particularly sexually deformed (as compared to men) on the text.

However, I am not sure that the desire to attract a mate, so to speak, is a sin, per se. It isn’t a sin to want to marry, or to have sexual urges. Nor is it a sin to want to be presentable in general, including to a potential mate. (Indeed, no interest in maintaining one’s appearance can be a sign of mental illness.) Even among “plain people” like the Amish keeping neat and clean is considered a good thing, and is something that is attractive to the opposite sex. To want to be physically, mentally, and morally attractive to a potential husband does not seem like a bad thing, if put in it’s proper place in relation to the rest of a person’s life.

As for why people do not put that desire in it’s proper place, I think Augustine can give plenty of insight. He tells us, among other things, that what we all want deep down is to love and be loved, but we often look to the wrong object to fulfill that God-given desire.

 

[Sabda]

Make up can help a woman sell herself. It can make her look glossy like a glossy mag model or a pop star. Lipstick gives me lips that money can buy, foundation and blusher give me skin and cheeks that money can buy. Make up gives my face a price tag. My face without make up is free, I can’t buy it, but it’s also priceless as it is designed by God. My skin colour and lip colour are unique.

Make up is not Mary-like. I think you’ll find most nuns do not wear make up or jewellery for that matter. A lot of lay women wear make up because they do not have any guidelines on appearance like the celibate orders. Make up isn’t necessarily a good for a Christian relationship although it may be necessary in some non-Christian relationships. Not anybody’s fault, that’s just the way it is and not everybody has proper guidance.

I would like an answer to my question. This question is in reference to your statement in post #85, “**but the Church’s teaching will be changed in the future.”
**
My question is in post #87.
“And exactly how do you know that? Where’s your proof? Make-up has been around for thousands of years and to my knowledge the Church hasn’t said anything yet. It isn’t in the CCC, for example.”

Would you please answer this question. I’m very curious to know how you know this.

 

[LilyM]

Make up can help a woman sell herself. It can make her look glossy like a glossy mag model or a pop star. Lipstick gives me lips that money can buy, foundation and blusher give me skin and cheeks that money can buy. Make up gives my face a price tag. My face without make up is free, I can’t buy it, but it’s also priceless as it is designed by God. My skin colour and lip colour are unique.

Clothes and hairstyling (or for that matter simply using shampoo and conditioner) can help a woman sell herself. They can make her look glossy like a glossy mag model or a pop star (which says nothing about those women who in reality ARE glossy mag models or pop stars).

Clothing and hairstyling - and shampoo and conditioner - gives you a body and hair that money can buy. They give your body and hair a price tag. Your body without clothes, and your hair without haircuts and shampoo and conditioner, are free, and they are also priceless as they are designed by God. Your natural hair absent shanpoo and conditioner, and your body without the clothes you buy, are also unique.

Make up is not Mary-like. I think you’ll find most nuns do not wear make up or jewellery for that matter. A lot of lay women wear make up because they do not have any guidelines on appearance like the celibate orders. Make up isn’t necessarily a good for a Christian relationship although it may be necessary in some non-Christian relationships. Not anybody’s fault, that’s just the way it is and not everybody has proper guidance.

Wearing blue-jeans is not Mary-like. Having sex, even within marriage, is definitely not Mary-like. Having more than one child is not Mary-like.

 

[lobster]

Wearing blue-jeans is not Mary-like.

I am sure Mary wore clothes.

Having sex, even within marriage, is definitely not Mary-like.

Oh but it is. Mary chose the path of celibacy, not because she despised or rejected sex, but precisely because she knew the gift of procreation to be something holy. When something good is denied oneself as an offering to God, it is pleasing to Him. When celibacy is offered to God, it is especially pleasing to God, because she is denying herself something which is immensly good and holy and giving it back to God instead.

Having more than one child is not Mary-like.

Why not? Mary had a Baby. Therefore one could say that having a child is imitating her, as having another is imitating her again. Not having a child by offering up marital relations as a gift to God would also be imitating her. Despising marital relations would not be an imitation of Mary, since she did not despise any gifts from God ever.

 

[lobster]

Having more than one child is not Mary-like.

I am sure you know what opinion Mary would have if asked what her thoughts were on having more than one child.

 

[LilyM]

I am sure Mary wore clothes.
Oh but it is. Mary chose the path of celibacy, not because she despised or rejected sex, but precisely because she knew the gift of procreation to be something holy. When something good is denied oneself as an offering to God, it is pleasing to Him. When celibacy is offered to God, it is especially pleasing to God, because she is denying herself something which is immensly good and holy and giving it back to God instead.

And Mary didn’t wear makeup. For that matter, in fact we don’t know that she DIDN’T wear any - it is certainly not on record anywhere that she didn’t.

IF she didn’t, that ALSO is not to say that she despised or rejected makeup. For all we know, if she wore none, it may have simply because she was too poor to afford any. Cosmetics were much more expensive in her time than they are now.

As you’ve so ably demonstrated, it is totally fallacious to assume that merely because Mary didn’t do something that it’s wrong to do that thing. Budgie’s argument that Mary not wearing makeup means we shouldn’t is likewise fallacious.

Why not? Mary had a Baby. Therefore one could say that having a child is imitating her, as having another is imitating her again. Not having a child by offering up marital relations as a gift to God would also be imitating her. Despising marital relations would not be an imitation of Mary, since she did not despise any gifts from God ever.

So we can imitate Mary whether we have sex within marriage (which she didn’t do) or not (as she did). Whether we have one child (as she did) or more than one (as she did NOT do). Whether we wear no makeup (as budgie thinks she didn’t) or wear makeup (as budgie thinks she did NOT do).

 

[GodIsGracious]

Ok, NOW i’m going to post.

I think your confessors are wrong.

Interesting seeing as how you’re not a priest.

A woman wears make up because she believes her humanity is ugly, a woman’s face is widely tied up with her humanity and sense of self. But by changing my face, I make myself less human and therefore more animal. Make up is a venial sin.

Wrong. Some women (maybe not you) don’t wear make up because they don’t feel pretty enough. I know when I was overweight feeling down right ugly I didn’t bother nor did I care to make myself up. When I lost weight, I finally felt pretty enough to put on make up.

I have another health issue that currently affects me and the way I look. You’d probably consider it vanity if you knew what I was doing to correct the situation but I tell you, I am getting LESS attention because of it, not more.

And becaus I am taking care of it, I finally feel pretty enough again to put on make up. Before, I was so distraught I didn’t care how I looked. I didn’t bother with my clothes or making up my face.

Women wear make up to attract mates on the basis of colour. This is divine revelation. It imitates mating practices in the animal kingdom such as mating of birds of paradise and peacocks. As human beings we can attract mates on the basis of talking to each other and finding out if we have shared interests and beliefs aswell as natural beauty.

You are making very broad generilizations as to the motives of why women wear make up. And no, I am not trying to attract a man, I am already dating someone I may marry. And he loves me with or without make up, and even regardless of my other health situation that causes people to stare at me. so I don’t need to try and “catch a man” with my makeup.

I’m not spiritually well if I’m wearing make up. I could go down to clear gloss on my lips, a little bit of eye shadow and clear nail varnish and then try to give it up completely.

Some bird mating dances from youtube:
youtube.com/watch?v=E9tdloS_A-4&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=XgnOQqLhrlw

Well, good for you.

I, personally, am not spiritually well if I go around listening to everyone with personal revelations as to what they presume my motives and intentions are for every little thing I do. There is nothing wrong with a woman making herself presentable in the way she deems appropriate and within modest means.

I’m not ugly. I’m quite pretty. Even with my health issue that I don’t cover up. I attract more unwanted attention when I don’t do that and now, with what YOU would probably consider “vain” I actually look normal and don’t get the stares that I had before.

Quit judging people. Don’t forget, you will be judged the same as you judge others.

 

[GraceDK]

Hi everyone,

I’m curious if the Catholic Church teaches anything on women wearing makeup? Lately I’ve been struggling with wearing makeup…I wake up every morning and feel like I NEED to wear mascara for the day or else I will look completely ugly and no one will pay any attention to me, or respect any of my ideas. Granted, I do not wear a lot of makeup - usually natural looking mascara, subtle brown eyeliner, and a touch of blush. Yet, I’ve worn this everyday since I was 13 years old (I’m 23 now) and lately have felt like I am not satisfied with the face the Lord has given me unless I have this little bit of makeup on!

So is this vain? Is the Lord displeased that I wear makeup and to desire to look pretty everyday? If there is no particular Catholic teaching, what do you all think?

Thanks!

This is a subjective answer. As far as I know the Church has no official teaching on the matter.
However, we should always test our motives and not go to the extreme.
Its natural that being pretty as a woman creates more self confidence in her. I know exactly your experience by the way. I look very different with and without my makeup. When I use my stuff I can get to look very pretty, even though I always keep in natural. So too is the response that I get from people…its very bound up on what I wear when it comes to make up and clothes.
Striving for beauty in our selves and around us are a natural Godgiven trait of women’s nature.
In my view you don’t wear very much make up at all and it should not worry you. Only make sure that your lotions etc are free from the hormone disturbing chemicals.

Peace.

 

[GraceDK]

And Mary didn’t wear makeup. For that matter, in fact we don’t know that she DIDN’T wear any - it is certainly not on record anywhere that she didn’t.

IF she didn’t, that ALSO is not to say that she despised or rejected makeup. For all we know, if she wore none, it may have simply because she was too poor to afford any. Cosmetics were much more expensive in her time than they are now.

…:

It must be tiresome to be Mary… she is probably shaking her head at all those who take her hostage to their own oppinions and tastes…
I think Mary is not a petty person.
Anyhow… if some people think it’s bad to want to attract the admiration from the other sex, I dont quite understand that.
Yes, I also wear make-up in order to look pretty when the knight in shining armor shows up. If I am blessed to become a wife I will have even more enjoyment trying to look really pretty for him, and … wooo… maybe I’ll even buy lingeri