Making a fair and thorough literary evaluation of Book of Mormon authorship

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another silly deflection. Have you ever asked a friend or family member to pray for you? I am sure you have. Why do that when you can go to God directly?

Sigh.

We ask Saints to pray us. Is that so bad?
It’s not bad. We just don’t do it. Yes, we do ask friends to pray for us…but we don’t spend prayer time doing so. A request to a friend for aid in prayer is a quick question, asked in addition to prayer time to God, not instead of.

Whether that perception of what happens in Catholicism is accurate or not, that IS the perception. There is the perception of worship (which I know isn’t correct) that is very much out there, and there is the perception that time that *could *be used for personal prayer to God (when your friends aren’t around to ask, for instance) is spent asking Saints for such intercessory aid, when God is, y’know, right there and you could ask Him yourself.

I understand that Catholics do this out of humility and respect for Deity. I don’t for one second think that in asking Saints for intercession that they are taking worship away from God.

I simply do not agree that it is necessary.
 
…and just who, on this forum (or anywhere else) has held YOU personally responsible for the death of Joseph Smith?
You aren’t responsible for what your ancestors did. You ARE responsible for your pride in what they did.
By the way, claiming that you 'know all about Smith worshipers" and using as a bona fide that your ancestor was in on the mob that murdered the man is a little like claiming to know what it’s like to be black because your grandfather was in the original Ku Klux Klan.
It’s not only an illogical claim, it’s perjorative…and, by the way, inaccurate on the face of it. We do not, after all, worship Joseph Smith.
Quoting from my book:
On June 27, 1844, Joseph was murdered at the Carthage Jail, by local people,
angry at Joseph’s dissemination of Masonic secrets, religious fraud, a bid to become
president of the United States, Mormon appropriation of the property of non-Mormons
and dissenters, Mormon monopolization of the economy of the area, sexual exploits
with their daughters and wives, and the destruction of a printing-press which had
exposed the scandal. Shortly after his death, Apostle John Taylor forever sealed this
statement in The Doctrines and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day
Saints:

Finally, having stripped himself of the support of Sidney Rigdon, Joseph met his
end. He was in jail for ordering the destruction of the printing press that exposed the
practice of polygamy. Friends had promised to rescue him from the Carthage jail.
Instead, others attacked the jail and killed him and one of his brothers. With more
moderate leaders such as the Smiths and Sidney Rigdon out of the picture, Brigham
Young took over leadership of a large faction. As a blatant sociopath leading a
community of other sociopaths and naive dupes, he had the cunning to turn the dying
cult into a terroristic organization that would support other sociopathic leaders, on
both local levels, and within the highest levels of the organization, for the next 150
years.

Joseph, Samuel, and Hyrum Smith were not the only victims of the troubles
during the Nauvoo era. Mormons killed many. Here are several accounts, from Thomas
Sharp, the hotheaded and impatient newspaper editor (lawyer, and educator) of
Warsaw, Illinois:

If you will note the moderate nature of my comments on the death of Joseph Smith, I have neither pride nor shame in who my ancestor was. What Mormons have done, in what is at the very least their mind-reading of my attitude towards the death of Joseph Smith, has led me to this point. And this point is that if Joseph Smith had not died at the Carthage jail, perhaps we would not be worried about the activities of radical-right fundamentalist LDS, who offend everyone else, and then cry “Persecution!!”
 
dianaiad;6979709 [QUOTE said:
]It’s not bad. We just don’t do it. Yes, we do ask friends to pray for us…but we don’t spend prayer time doing so. A request to a friend for aid in prayer is a quick question, asked in addition to prayer time to God, not instead of.
First, glad to see you keeping your word to ignore me. Second, you have prayer time? I am in prayer constantly, so asking a Saint to pray for me is not wasting time. I suppose if you only have an hour or so, it would be wasting your time. And asking a friend is not always a quick question. You have to ask for the prayer, and tell them what is is about and what you are needing help with. And God is never shorted. That was a truly silly comment
Whether that perception of what happens in Catholicism is accurate or not, that IS the perception. There is the perception of worship (which I know isn’t correct) that is very much out there, and there is the perception that time that *could *be used for personal prayer to God (when your friends aren’t around to ask, for instance) is spent asking Saints for such intercessory aid, when God is, y’know, right there and you could ask Him yourself.
lol…perhaps it is YOUR perception. You ask friends, I ask Saints. Same time. Then prayer to God is the same time. Why is it you can ask a friend to pray for you and it does not interfere with your time for God, but if we ask a Saint to pray for us, it interferes? lolol. I ask Saints to pray for me, then I ask God. You ask a friend to pray for you, then, allegedly, you ask your god. The only real difference in this scenario, is I pray to the Real God and you pray to an ex-sinful man

I
 
Another section from my book:

Through a study of the Book of Mormon, we find that the cultures of that book
justify punishing others for the “sins” of their ancestors. This is Utah Mormon doctrine.
It remains in the Book of Mormon and in practice among Brighamite people. See Alma
25:4 and 25:8-12. We can underscore the importance of genealogy to Brighamites
through a word count. Of 182 usages of the word “seed” in the BoM, 155 are in the
context of descendants.
The endowment ceremony of the Utah-based church at one time included this
vow:
“You do solemnly swear in the presence of Almighty God. His holy angels and
these witnesses, that you will avenge the blood of Joseph Smith on this nation, and teach
the same to your children, and that you will from this time henceforth and forever begin
and carry out hostilities against the nation, to keep the same intent a profound secret,
now and forever, so help you God.” (Smith, W. 1857)
Another more recent transcript has:
“You and each of you do solemnly promise and vow that you will pray, and never
cease to pray, and never cease to importune high heaven to avenge the blood of the
prophets on this nation, and that you will teach this to your children and your children’s
children unto the third and fourth generation.”
Although they removed this vow in the first endowment some time between
1931 and 1937, the inner elite of Utah Mormonism still seem to practice it.

Oh, by the way, you cannot complain about temple content, since this is PAST temple content.
 
Another section from my book:

Through a study of the Book of Mormon, we find that the cultures of that book
justify punishing others for the “sins” of their ancestors. This is Utah Mormon doctrine.
It remains in the Book of Mormon and in practice among Brighamite people. See Alma
25:4 and 25:8-12. We can underscore the importance of genealogy to Brighamites
through a word count. Of 182 usages of the word “seed” in the BoM, 155 are in the
context of descendants.
The endowment ceremony of the Utah-based church at one time included this
vow:
“You do solemnly swear in the presence of Almighty God. His holy angels and
these witnesses, that you will avenge the blood of Joseph Smith on this nation, and teach
the same to your children, and that you will from this time henceforth and forever begin
and carry out hostilities against the nation, to keep the same intent a profound secret,
now and forever, so help you God.” (Smith, W. 1857)
Another more recent transcript has:
“You and each of you do solemnly promise and vow that you will pray, and never
cease to pray, and never cease to importune high heaven to avenge the blood of the
prophets on this nation, and that you will teach this to your children and your children’s
children unto the third and fourth generation.”
Although they removed this vow in the first endowment some time between
1931 and 1937, the inner elite of Utah Mormonism still seem to practice it.

Oh, by the way, you cannot complain about temple content, since this is PAST temple content.
wow. And they claim to be from God?

I wish your book was in paperback
 
I wish your book was in paperback
I have not yet found a publisher. I guess I got impatient to get it out in public discussion. If someone could find a publisher for it, or a publisher is interested, that would be a worthwhile endeavor. I have hopes for a Spanish translation.
 
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ParkerD:
Let them use the Bible, fine, to add what they suppose “Joseph Smith added to the text” to show that the Biblical texts were known as sources for study by the Nephite prophets, and were loved by those prophets…
Including the New Testament? The BoM quotes from Luke, Acts, several Pauline epistles and the Book of Revelation. Were these texts, written in the 1st century AD, available for study by the Nephite prophets who left the Old World in 590 BC?
 
Quoting from my book:
On June 27, 1844, Joseph was murdered at the Carthage Jail, by local people,
angry at Joseph’s dissemination of Masonic secrets, religious fraud, a bid to become
president of the United States, Mormon appropriation of the property of non-Mormons
and dissenters, Mormon monopolization of the economy of the area, sexual exploits
with their daughters and wives, and the destruction of a printing-press which had
exposed the scandal. Shortly after his death, Apostle John Taylor forever sealed this
statement in The Doctrines and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day
Saints:

Finally, having stripped himself of the support of Sidney Rigdon, Joseph met his
end. He was in jail for ordering the destruction of the printing press that exposed the
practice of polygamy. Friends had promised to rescue him from the Carthage jail.
Instead, others attacked the jail and killed him and one of his brothers. With more
moderate leaders such as the Smiths and Sidney Rigdon out of the picture, Brigham
Young took over leadership of a large faction. As a blatant sociopath leading a
community of other sociopaths and naive dupes, he had the cunning to turn the dying
cult into a terroristic organization that would support other sociopathic leaders, on
both local levels, and within the highest levels of the organization, for the next 150
years.

Joseph, Samuel, and Hyrum Smith were not the only victims of the troubles
during the Nauvoo era. Mormons killed many. Here are several accounts, from Thomas
Sharp, the hotheaded and impatient newspaper editor (lawyer, and educator) of
Warsaw, Illinois:

If you will note the moderate nature of my comments on the death of Joseph Smith, I have neither pride nor shame in who my ancestor was. What Mormons have done, in what is at the very least their mind-reading of my attitude towards the death of Joseph Smith, has led me to this point. And this point is that if Joseph Smith had not died at the Carthage jail, perhaps we would not be worried about the activities of radical-right fundamentalist LDS, who offend everyone else, and then cry “Persecution!!”
This, by you, is MODERATE???
 
Including the New Testament? The BoM quotes from Luke, Acts, several Pauline epistles and the Book of Revelation. Were these texts, written in the 1st century AD, available for study by the Nephite prophets who left the Old World in 590 BC?
Paul,
Angels can of course use the same language whether they visit an Old World apostle or a New World prophet, and can do so at any point in the history of the world under the direction of the Father and the Son.

As far as some of the language of the Pauline epistles (including his great text on having charity that does compare quite closely with verses in Moroni 7 which was a record of a sermon given by Mormon in the 300’s AD), the Holy Ghost can convey important truths in that way, also. There also exists the possibility that texts that were available to the Nephites and to Paul are not available to us today, and could be quoted without referencing the original source material.

The truths of the gospel emanate from heavenly sources. What I like to do is lay hold upon those truths and try to live by them and love them and gain the joy that living by them brings into everyday life. The Bible provides many, many of them. The Book of Mormon amplifies some of those truths. It does not detract from studying the Bible–it enhances one’s study of the Bible.
 
A Baptist minister says the Book of Mormon is consistent with Jesus Christ’s teachings in the New Testament:
Sure, since the BoM was written by 19th-century Reformed Baptists (most notably Sidney Rigdon), you would expect it to reflect 19th-century Protestant Fundamentalist views of the bible. In fact, the BoM reads like a series of Protestant Fundamentalist sermons. A baptist should have no problem with the theology portrayed in the BoM.

There is no Mormonism in the BoM. That all came later.
 
ParkerD, Doctrines and Covenenat 20:8-9 claims that the Book of Mormon contains “the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ” yet it does not mention the Quorum of Seventies, the Aaronic priesthood, God as an exalted man, the plurality of gods, men becoming gods, three degrees of heavenly glory, baptism for the dead, celestial marriage etc, etc, etc.

Is the book of Mormon without error? Is it the infallible word of God?
Third Day,
If you’re asking if the Book of Mormon is “perfect”, then the book itself (through one author/compiler/editor, Moroni) says several times that it’s not “perfect” so why would I say it is “perfect”?

As far as the “men becoming gods” issue, Nephi was given a vision and was told that John had the responsibility in the future to receive the same information in vision and to reveal the knowledge to the world, by assignment from God, so I would not expect to find the same level of hidden and openly explanatory revelation about that subject in the Book of Mormon. It was reserved for the Savior and John to reveal to the world.

The Book of Mormon speaks about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost being One God, and about Jesus being the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This is consistent with the Bible.

I don’t think or write in terms of “the infallible word of God”, so I’ll defer that question to anyone who happens to think in those terms. God didn’t come down to earth and write the Bible, nor did He do that with the Book of Mormon.
 
Third Day,
If you’re asking if the Book of Mormon is “perfect”, then the book itself (through one author/compiler/editor, Moroni) says several times that it’s not “perfect” so why would I say it is “perfect”?
No, Joe wrote the book with the help of others and copies large chunks from the Bible
 
Joe wrote the book with the help of others and copied large chunks from the Bible
and other works. And used other literature available in those times for other themes. They also probably copied from published sermons and some of the more stirring ones they had heard.
 
Most of what Joe did came from other sources.
  1. Lots of folks were having “visits from God” in his area before he did…so Joe did it
  2. There was a book about an angel, or someone, leading someone to a treasure, it was called the The Golden Pot. Story og how Joe got the plates is oddly similar to that book.
  3. Joe copied the Book of Mormon from several sources, including the KJV
it was his MO
 
There was a book about an angel, or someone, leading someone to a treasure, it was called the The Golden Pot. Story of how Joe got the plates is oddly similar to that book.
Here it is. archive.org/details/dergoldenetopf17362gut Mark Hofmann was of the opinion that it was one of the sources. He must have run across it accidentally because of the similar last name.

I don’t know German, though.
 
I have read the Book of Mormon cover to cover. I have read various LDS and RLDS (mostly RLDS as I was more comfortable with the definitions of belief. I “relate” better to RLDS doctrine as much of it is “similar” to Friends. I did my Sr. Paper at George Fox College some thirty years ago “Comparisons between RLDS and Friends”.

Mormon doctrine on a surface level I can ‘relate’ to…but the more esoteric beliefs and doctrines are difficult for me to feel they “speak ot my condition”…so I am uncomfortable with concepts of Deity at times…I must confess…I find the same “uncomfortableness” at times with the “orthodox”…I understand the concepts and myth much more clearly than I do with the more “esoteric” Mormon doctrines and practices…Friends aren’t against ritual…but believe that each hour…each day is an opportunity to receive grace and enter into True Commuion without need of “outward ritual”…'outward signs" …so the reliance of Temple Endouments and postumous baptism are difficult concepts…I understand the “impetus” behind such ritual…but find I cannont embrace the “spiritual significance” of such rituals…the Reality of which the ritual points to is what Friends seek to recognize.

That being said…I find some very challenging, beautiful and moving passages in the Book of Mormon no matter what the origin…it IS a volume of scripture for many millions of people that find it’s value much deeper than I am able to do so. While I do not consider additional scripture the “threat” most conservative Christians do…I do not consider the Book of Mormon scripture for me…but I accept it’s sacredness to those of LDS tradition.
 
I have read the Book of Mormon cover to cover. I have read various LDS and RLDS (mostly RLDS as I was more comfortable with the definitions of belief. I “relate” better to RLDS doctrine as much of it is “similar” to Friends. I did my Sr. Paper at George Fox College some thirty years ago “Comparisons between RLDS and Friends”.

Mormon doctrine on a surface level I can ‘relate’ to…but the more esoteric beliefs and doctrines are difficult for me to feel they “speak ot my condition”…so I am uncomfortable with concepts of Deity at times…I must confess…I find the same “uncomfortableness” at times with the “orthodox”…I understand the concepts and myth much more clearly than I do with the more “esoteric” Mormon doctrines and practices…Friends aren’t against ritual…but believe that each hour…each day is an opportunity to receive grace and enter into True Commuion without need of “outward ritual”…'outward signs" …so the reliance of Temple Endouments and postumous baptism are difficult concepts…I understand the “impetus” behind such ritual…but find I cannont embrace the “spiritual significance” of such rituals…the Reality of which the ritual points to is what Friends seek to recognize.

That being said…I find some very challenging, beautiful and moving passages in the Book of Mormon no matter what the origin…it IS a volume of scripture for many millions of people that find it’s value much deeper than I am able to do so. While I do not consider additional scripture the “threat” most conservative Christians do…I do not consider the Book of Mormon scripture for me…but I accept it’s sacredness to those of LDS tradition.
I find it interesting you are Quaker. I have not met any…in fact, the only person I know of who was Quaker was Richard Nixon. I have no clue about how many there are or where they are mostly located. I need to research. I love research, thank you.

Almost ever moving passage I have found in the BM is a rewording of a passage I found in the Bible.
 
I find it interesting you are Quaker. I have not met any…in fact, the only person I know of who was Quaker was Richard Nixon. I have no clue about how many there are or where they are mostly located. I need to research. I love research, thank you.

Almost ever moving passage I have found in the BM is a rewording of a passage I found in the Bible.
Yes there are many biblically cited and based passages almost verbatim from the KJV…but there are some passages equally beautiful along with the Bible. In RLDS author Roy Weldon’s book…“The Book Speaks for Itself”…he expounds upon some unique BoM passages…it’s been years since I’ve read his book…but it changed my understanding and lessened my “dislike” for it’s grammar and story line…there is beauty in it’s pages as well as in it’s myth.
 
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