Making a fair and thorough literary evaluation of Book of Mormon authorship

[LongJourney]

.there is beauty in it’s pages as well as in it’s myth.

Yes there is. And studies have shown that some of the beautiful parts, which do not come from the Bible, came from Solomon Spalding. A Catholic publisher would probably be best for the book I have linked in my sig.

 

[dianaiad]

Yes there is. And studies have shown that some of the beautiful parts, which do not come from the Bible, came from Solomon Spalding. A Catholic publisher would probably be best for the book I have linked in my sig.

(sigh)

Would you care to show the precise studies, and exactly what parts of Spalding’s book are the ‘beautiful passages’ that the BoM took? There is, after all, little to no resemblance to the book we DO have from Spalding, and since the standard defense is that, since there IS little to no resemblance to the Spalding manuscript we do have, that of course it must have been the other Spalding manuscript that JS cribbed from. Except of course we don’t have that other one, and the only evidence we have that there ever WAS another one is this claim that the BoM was cribbed from Spalding. Since it obviously wasn’t taken from the existing manuscript, the diehards can’t admit that they were wrong about the Spalding/BoM connection, so obviously, in spite of the fact that there is absolutely no evidence of any other manuscript by Spalding, that there must have been one.

But go ahead. Exactly what passages are you referring to, and what studies are you talking about?

 

[LongJourney]

That requires much more data and analysis than can be presented in a single post. I refer you to the link on my sig. No, I am not the Vatican.

Thank you again for encouraging me to direct peoples’ attention to my sig. I appreciate every opportunity to do so.

 

[dianaiad]

That requires much more data and analysis than can be presented in a single post. I refer you to the link on my sig. No, I am not the Vatican.

Thank you again for encouraging me to direct peoples’ attention to my sig. I appreciate every opportunity to do so.

I didn’t ask for a referral to your entire book. I asked for the specific studies and the passages. Surely you can give us one or two examples of each, right?

 

[LongJourney]

Here it is. archive.org/details/dergoldenetopf17362gut Mark Hofmann was of the opinion that it was one of the sources. He must have run across it accidentally because of the similar last name.

I don’t know German, though.

ia311324.us.archive.org/1/items/germanromancetra02carl/germanromancetra02carl.pdf English translation first available in 1827.

 

[utah_rose]

As a recent investigator and new member, I’ve watched closely for this. Naturally people call JS a prophet but I’ve only seen or heard people worship and pray to Jesus/God.

I would put JS on par with Catholic hero worship of thier saints, but below Mary. However, no moromon prays to JS and ask for his intercession with God, like Catholics pray to the Saints & Mary.

I never understood why pray to a Saint when you can ask God directly

I would answer that with does someone ever ask you to pray for them? I’m sure this happens in your ward or family, when bad things happen. And do you do that? This is the same thing as we do with the Saints and Mary.

We don’t worship the saints or Mary, but pray to them for their INTERCESSION. We know that Mary is the mother of God, Jesus, and if you are having a problem, wouldn’t you go to your mother first?

 

[SirThomasMore]

I would answer that with does someone ever ask you to pray for them? I’m sure this happens in your ward or family, when bad things happen. And do you do that? This is the same thing as we do with the Saints and Mary.

We don’t worship the saints or Mary, but pray to them for their INTERCESSION. We know that Mary is the mother of God, Jesus, and if you are having a problem, wouldn’t you go to your mother first?

I asked Todd that earlier. He avoided the question.

Then Diana answered for him and had some nonsense about asking Saints to pray for us took away from our prayer time.

It was really odd

 

[PaulDupre]

I would answer that with does someone ever ask you to pray for them? I’m sure this happens in your ward or family, when bad things happen. And do you do that? This is the same thing as we do with the Saints and Mary.

We don’t worship the saints or Mary, but pray to them for their INTERCESSION. We know that Mary is the mother of God, Jesus, and if you are having a problem, wouldn’t you go to your mother first?

Asking the saints to pray for us and with us is biblical:

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

• James 5:16

Those who are known to be in heaven with God are the most righteous people there are. To ask them to pray for us is only logical. Their prayers will “avail much”.

Paul

 

[Catherine_D]

As a recent investigator and new member, I’ve watched closely for this. Naturally people call JS a prophet but I’ve only seen or heard people worship and pray to Jesus/God.

I would put JS on par with Catholic hero worship of thier saints, but below Mary. However, no moromon prays to JS and ask for his intercession with God, like Catholics pray to the Saints & Mary.

I never understood why pray to a Saint when you can ask God directly

I think if you pay attention you will find that Mormons do not pray TO Jesus. Instead, they pray in His Name. This is not the same thing. This is because, in the Mormon pantheon of gods, Jesus is subordinate.

Further, as a correction, Catholics do not pray TO Mary, they do not pray TO the Saints. They ask Mary and the Saints for their prayers, just as you might ask a friend for their prayers on your behalf. There is a huge difference.

With all due respect Todd, if this is an example of your previous understanding of the Catholic faith, then you never understood the treasury of faith that you left. That is unfortunate.

 

[ParkerD]

I have read the Book of Mormon cover to cover. I have read various LDS and RLDS (mostly RLDS as I was more comfortable with the definitions of belief. I “relate” better to RLDS doctrine as much of it is “similar” to Friends. I did my Sr. Paper at George Fox College some thirty years ago “Comparisons between RLDS and Friends”.

Mormon doctrine on a surface level I can ‘relate’ to…but the more esoteric beliefs and doctrines are difficult for me to feel they “speak ot my condition”…so I am uncomfortable with concepts of Deity at times…I must confess…I find the same “uncomfortableness” at times with the “orthodox”…I understand the concepts and myth much more clearly than I do with the more “esoteric” Mormon doctrines and practices…Friends aren’t against ritual…but believe that each hour…each day is an opportunity to receive grace and enter into True Commuion without need of “outward ritual”…'outward signs" …so the reliance of Temple Endouments and postumous baptism are difficult concepts…I understand the “impetus” behind such ritual…but find I cannont embrace the “spiritual significance” of such rituals…the Reality of which the ritual points to is what Friends seek to recognize.

That being said…I find some very challenging, beautiful and moving passages in the Book of Mormon no matter what the origin…it IS a volume of scripture for many millions of people that find it’s value much deeper than I am able to do so. While I do not consider additional scripture the “threat” most conservative Christians do…I do not consider the Book of Mormon scripture for me…but I accept it’s sacredness to those of LDS tradition.

Publisher,
Thanks for your respectful comment about having read the Book of Mormon and about LDS feelings of its sacredness.

I suppose that to bring this thread back to topic, I might as well explain what I meant about being able to detect different word prints in the authors and speakers within the Book of Mormon. There are many, many examples of that which could be discussed. As a reader moves into the words of Jacob from having read the words of Nephi, they find different stylistics.

One of Nephi’s most poignant entries is found in 2 Nephi 4. Some of his words are, “May the gates of hell be shut continually before me, because that my heart is broken and my spirit is contrite! O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness!”

Jacob’s word print includes a greater tendency to use more complex sentences than Nephi, and to use more descriptive and emotive words than Nephi had a tendency to use. His teachings in 2 Nephi 9 are a classical set of teachings about the atonement of Christ. He was teaching the Nephites. He explained, “Wherefore, it must needs be an infinite atonement–save it should be an infinite atonement this corruption could not put on incorruption. Wherefore, the first judgment which came upon man must needs have remained to an endless duration. And if so, this flesh must have laid down to rot and to crumble to its mother earth, to rise no more. O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace!”

The words “to rot and to crumble” appear in no other verses in scripture (not the Bible, not the Book of Mormon, nor any other of the standard works. This is the case with several of the words Jacob uses in his talks and writings. He has a unique expression.

Jacob’s emotive language use reminds me of the word use of Alma the younger, after his conversion. Here are some of Alma’s words:

28 Nevertheless, after wading through much tribulation, repenting nigh unto death, the Lord in mercy hath seen fit to snatch me out of an everlasting burning, and I am born of God.
29 My soul hath been redeemed from the gall of bitterness and bonds of iniquity. I was in the darkest abyss; but now I behold the marvelous light of God. My soul was racked with eternal torment; but I am snatched, and my soul is pained no more.
30 I rejected my Redeemer, and denied that which had been spoken of by our fathers; but now that they may foresee that he will come, and that he remembereth every creature of his creating, he will make himself manifest unto all.
31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.

The use by Alma the younger of the words “snatch me out of an everlasting burning” and “beneath the glance of his all-searching eye” are the only uses of those expressions in all of sacred scripture. They are descriptive expressions that capture one’s attention through built-in similes.

Jacob had had reason to develop an emotive response to the world around him, having been “born in tribulation” and having experienced much affliction and tribulation during his life, as he described it. Alma the younger had passed through a period during his youth of being very rebellious against God and against his father, Alma. His emotive response to the world after his conversion shows the intensity of his feelings about having been redeemed from the everlasting horror of suffering the pains of hell, with ever-present gratitude expressed in his teachings and writings for the Savior and for His atoning grace in a very personal, poignant and emphatic way, emphasizing always the importance of repentance and that Christ will eventually deliver and lift up those who are righteous from the trials and afflictions of life, and emphasizing putting one’s trust in God.

 

[LongJourney]

Parker, I am glad you are moved by some sections of the BoM. You are choosing the right parts for an emotional reaction. However, they had plenty of access to books of published poetry and sermons. It would take a massive search, and even then some of them are no longer available anywhere.

There is very little original stuff in the BoM.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, I am glad you are moved by some sections of the BoM. You are choosing the right parts for an emotional reaction. However, they had plenty of access to books of published poetry and sermons. It would take a massive search, and even then some of them are no longer available anywhere.

There is very little original stuff in the BoM.

LJ who journeys in an imaginary university with who knows what purpose other than self-fulfillment,

The Book of Mormon contains an authentic response by people with authentic emotions and an authentic rejoicing in the plan of salvation offered by the Lord, Jesus Christ who loves the world and loves you as well as He loved the people of Ancient America.

I realize this is hard for some people to detect when they are used to non-authentic approaches to writing and reading and thinking, particularly about the gospel of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation. When all that becomes an intellectual exercise, then they are going to be left with the kind of response to the world that your imaginary university presents. That world may work for you, but genuine life is what works for me, and is soul-satisfying and fulfilling and spiritually renewing.

There is continuous authenticity in the writings presented in the Book of Mormon.

 

[LongJourney]

That world may work for you, but genuine life is what works for me, and is soul-satisfying and fulfilling and spiritually renewing.

You and I believe differently. You have the right to believe as you believe. I do not impose my beliefs on you. I would appreciate it if you did not try to impose your beliefs on me. :tiphat:

LJ who journeys in an imaginary university with who knows what purpose other than self-fulfillment,

That imaginary university exists for the purpose of educating people on how to respond to people who try to impose their beliefs on others. It is a laudable motivation.

 

[SirThomasMore]

LJ who journeys in an imaginary university with who knows what purpose other than self-fulfillment,

 

[dianaiad]

Parker, I am glad you are moved by some sections of the BoM. You are choosing the right parts for an emotional reaction. However, they had plenty of access to books of published poetry and sermons. It would take a massive search, and even then some of them are no longer available anywhere.

There is very little original stuff in the BoM.

So yoru proof of this is that ‘they had access’ to books?

I have news for you, LJ. They didn’t. Certainly they didn’t have access to what you and I would call massive amounts of such publications! They didn’t wander around in the circles that had libraries of ‘hundreds’ of books, never mind the thousands of books that you and I expect to see in the humblest of libraries, or the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of publications that are available to any of US at the click of a mouse.

So you say that it would take a ‘massive search,’ and that 'some of them are no longer avialiable anywhere?" Well, that’s too bad, because no matter how massive the search might be, your claim requires that you undertake it in order to prove your assertions.

Figuring that it must be true even though you can’t support it because…well…you don’t like us…isn’t going to work.

 

[dianaiad]

You and I believe differently. You have the right to believe as you believe. I do not impose my beliefs on you. I would appreciate it if you did not try to impose your beliefs on me. :tiphat:

That imaginary university exists for the purpose of educating people on how to respond to people who try to impose their beliefs on others. It is a laudable motivation.

LJ,

You don’t see us anywhere on CAF but here, responding to folks who are discussing OUR beliefs.

With all due respect, that’s not us imposing our beliefs on YOU.

 

[LongJourney]

With all due respect, that’s not us imposing our beliefs on YOU.

With all due respect, I have the right to express my beliefs. Now, if you want, you can roam around on with width and breadth of these forums, and post wherever you want. No one is preventing you from doing that.

We must remember that the LDS faith does not have any consistent theology. I suppose that is why so many ex-LDS end up UU. They are comfortable with that.

They had access to books, but it is difficult to determine which books they had access to.

Here is an interesting one.
ia311324.us.archive.org/1/items/germanromancetra02carl/germanromancetra02carl.pdf
Very interesting, and hard to make a definitive statement about it.

 

[dianaiad]

With all due respect, I have the right to express my beliefs.

Yes you do, So do we. Using the same standard for one set of expressions as you use for another is generally a good idea, though…so if you are not imposing your beliefs upon us by attacking/criticising/discussing what we believe (frequently erroniously), then we are not imposing ours upon you by defending them against inaccuracies. Fair is, after all, fair.

Now, if you want, you can roam around on with width and breadth of these forums, and post wherever you want. No one is preventing you from doing that.

Well…it IS a moderated forum. The point is, though, I DON’T do that. Therefore I am NOT ‘imposing my beliefs’ upon you–in any fashion.

We must remember that the LDS faith does not have any consistent theology.

I think it has quite a consistent theology, but then I’m only the Mormon. What would I know about what my beliefs actually are? (and yes, that IS sarcasm.)

I suppose that is why so many ex-LDS end up UU. They are comfortable with that.

Wow, two slams against two separate belief systems in one short statement. Very efficient.

They had access to books, but it is difficult to determine which books they had access to.

…and yet your claim is that they got all their stuff from those books, even though you have absolutely no idea which books they got 'em from, or even if those books actually existed.

Reasoning like that has always intrigued me, in a ‘Fallacies 101’ sort of way.

Here is an interesting one.
ia311324.us.archive.org/1/items/germanromancetra02carl/germanromancetra02carl.pdf
Very interesting, and hard to make a definitive statement about it.

…and yet, you don’t seem to have a problem doing so.

 

[ParkerD]

To the general reader:

I suppose after reading some of the comments, that it may not be well understood what I mean when I use the word “authentic” in describing a piece of writing that is a first-person account.

If a reader will remember back to their high school or college days, perhaps they will remember when a teacher asked them to write an on-the-spot essay about a subject of their choosing or sometimes about an assigned subject, but to do it right there in class. Or perhaps a reader will remember the idea of journal writing or diary writing, where a person expresses their personal feelings about life and about relationships.

The goal of the teacher when trying to get students to write an on-the-spot essay would be to help them get past putting on a “front”, or get past trying to appear to write like someone else such as a “great author”, but rather to write from their own personal experience and using their own language patterns, as they would speak if talking to a friend. This is a bit like stream-of-conciousness writing, but hopefully putting together an essay where there is a main subject and then paragraphs that go along with the main subject and give detail and depth, to express the personality and real deep-down feelings of the writer (hopefully using good language skills, but genuine from-the-heart descriptive language).

How the above relates to the Book of Mormon is that throughout it, if a reader can get past their own biases and explore whether the writing reflects genuine experience, they will find that indeed the writing reflects genuine experience rather than a contrived situation such as a fictional writer does.

But a reader is of course going to bring their own biases initially to the experience of reading. The gospel of Jesus Christ provides a way for people to unmask their biases and get to the heart of their feelings rather than go through life putting on appearances and “masks”, if they are willing to bring their heart into the matter of letting Christ change their life.

Sometimes people have a difficult time doing that “unmasking”. They are more comfortable with the masks they have donned in life, some from childhood when perhaps they had hurt feelings and needed to protect from having more hurt feelings, or some from the teenage years when people often start putting on identity masks and lose touch with their inner core self.

So one of the blessings of the Book of Mormon is to go about with an unmasking process of one’s heart, by identifying emotionally with the hearts and experiences of the writers and speakers who describe their own emotional experiences of putting the gospel to practice in their lives and teaching their children to do so.

Unless one is willing to go through that process of unmasking one’s heart, the Book of Mormon will probably remain a foreign text and the call for “physical proof” will be reflective of reader bias since authenticity is not something they are able to detect just by reading. It goes with the territory.

Even an autobiographical writer has to deal with unmasking themselves, if they want to have an audience that believes what they have to say. That’s why autobiography is often a catharsis for the writer of it, and can sometimes lead to a catharsis for the reader also who identifies with the particular autobiography.

 

[LongJourney]

Interesting post, Parker. Perhaps a review of my book?