Making Hell make sense

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RealisticCatholic

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The Catholic Faith maintains the possibility of an eternal hell. (However, on some parts of CAF, it has been debated whether or not Catholicism truly requires belief in an eternal hell. But put that aside, for now.)

To me, in order for a doctrine or understanding of hell to be coherent, it has to show that someone knowingly and freely chooses hell, such that the individual is getting what he wants.

I don’t think anyone will object to the “knowingly” and “freely” part. Someone might object to the “getting what he wants,” so let me say a bit more: If someone goes to hell, without getting what he wants, then it seems hell has to be reduced to ignorance, or lack of full freedom, in which case that individual couldn’t possibly deserve an eternal hell, anyway.

So anyway, how can we make hell coherent? How can someone choose hell, even knowing God is his ultimate good and happiness?

People I hope particpate 😛 @Magnanimity @IWantGod
 
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We have to believe hell is real, that’s a dogma.

People want to be in hell when they commit a mortal sin and do no repent before they die.

If someone has invincible ignorance then ones culpibility may not be that of an actual mortal sin, so one may not go to hell.

One must be Baptised to go to heaven, so there must be a formal baptism, or a baptism of desire, or a baptism of blood.
 
LittleFlower378 said:
People want to be in hell when they commit a mortal sin and do no repent before they die.
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Why do you think a person — made in God’s image and likeness, and made with a natural bent towards goodness, and made to the extent that he or she can only be truly fulfilled by God in Heaven — would knowingly and willingly want hell?
 
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Because God gave us free will to choose good or evil. People choose evil all the time. Look around you.
 
Ah but see, Aquinas would say someone only chooses evil because of a good present. No one chooses evil for the sake of evil.

So I ask why someone would — or could even — knowingly and deliberate choose hell. Just saying free will only rephrases the answer. It’s not getting to the heart of it.
 
People know that what they are going to do offends God to the core, but they do it anyways. Acts that are contrary to love.
 
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In order to “choose hell”, one would have to have a full understanding of what they were choosing, in order for being sent there to be just. No one can have that, because none of us have gone and seen what hell is. It can be described according to what people think it is… People describe places all the time. I remember my friend from the midwest who came to visit and had never seen the ocean before at the beach. Obviously she had seen it in the movies, in pictures, etc. But she couldn’t get over the reality of it, the enormous size of it, the sound of it, etc. until she actually saw it.

Saying people choose hell doesn’t sound right to me, so I choose not to believe it. I believe in a just God.
 
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In Scripture Jesus strongest condemnation is of the Pharisees.

Matt 23 33 You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell?

In their case, it is rewarding to experience high esteem of their own righteousness while at the same time judging the souls of others. Ultimately it was they who had the Good God incarnate killed believing He was evil.
 
One can also mortally sin against the love of neighbor.
 
It needs to be fleshed out more, but a response I could imagine to this line of thinking is to first remember that God is not some item within the Universe, as if just another being out there — but bigger, more powerful, and who thrusts his will and proposes it as better than ours.

Instead, God is Being itself, such that all things are participants in God and reflect God. Goodness and God’s Being are one. So I could see someone argue that one may not actually have to explicitly reject God (in the imaginative sense, like imagining rejecting an old man with a beard.) in order to choose hell. Instead, any deliberate sin, against neighbor or love or what have you, is in a very real sense directly against God. Because God is Goodness and Love.

This doesn’t quite answer your objection, but I think a possible solution is to be found in what is meant by God, in the first place, and how our actions can either reflect him or not. In this sense, even an atheist could be following God.
 
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RealisticCatholic said:
The Catholic Faith maintains the possibility of an eternal hell. (However, on some parts of CAF, it has been debated whether or not Catholicism truly requires belief in an eternal hell. But put that aside, for now.)

To me, in order for a doctrine or understanding of hell to be coherent, it has to show that someone knowingly and freely chooses hell, such that the individual is getting what he wants.
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The Church teaches that Hell is real, but does not require a belief that anyone is in Hell.

As to why someone would choose such a state, that question has lead many (including some Saints and Fathers of the Church) to conclude that none do. For an interesting and moving depiction of how that can nonetheless come to pass, consider the movie “What Dreams May Come.” SPOILER (kinda) - it depicts someone who chooses to be separate from God and explains why.
 
I believe God is goodness and love. I believe we aren’t able to comprehend this to its fullest. It is why I don’t worry about going to (or “choosing”) hell. I have faith in His infinite mercy. I know if I am doing my best, he has my back. I also believe when I am not doing my best, He still has my back. I don’t think he waivers. I think it is the same for us after we pass on.
 
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JMMJ said:
In order to “choose hell”, one would have to have a full understanding of what they were choosing, in order for being sent there to be just. No one can have that, because none of us have gone and seen what hell is. It can be described according to what people think it is… People describe places all the time. I remember my friend from the midwest who came to visit and had never seen the ocean before at the beach. Obviously she had seen it in the movies, in pictures, etc. But she couldn’t get over the reality of it, the enormous size of it, the sound of it, etc. until she actually saw it.
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Which of us, told by someone who was reliable, count ourself as ill-used when we are told the truth by a reliable person and fail to accept it and act in accordance with it? Do we not understand that God is reliable? How could we say we didn’t accept what we were told because we had to accept the truth without experiencing it directly? I don’t think we ought to teach anyone to count on that as a defense. There is no evidence for that defense.

Remember what Our Lord said in his parable of Lazarus and the rich man: ‘If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.’ Lk 16:31

I don’t know what conclusion we can draw from the plain meaning of the Gospels except that we know enough to be justly judged on how we responded to what was revealed to us based on the faith that Almighty God knows we have been furnished with. The plain meaning of the Gospels is that at the Final Judgment there will be surprises, and some but not all of those surprises will be pleasant ones. In all of this, justice will not be violated.
 
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I think that makes sense. Now, do you think it possible someone like Adolf Hitler could be in hell, even if he didn’t directly choose hell as a specific “place,” but rather something in his will that led him to prefer a hellish existence over the communion with God in love?
 
RealisticCatholic said:
So I ask why someone would — or could even — knowingly and deliberate choose hell. Just saying free will only rephrases the answer. It’s not getting to the heart of it.
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One way to look at it - a person may not choose Hell explicitly, but one may adopt a mindset in life that rejects God. A person that sees nothing but evil all around them, and responds in kind, who cannot love others and sees no reason to do so, such a person has already created a Hell for themselves, and may continue in such a state in the next life. Hell may be an inability to give and accept love, in other words. A “choice” that is made, without realizing it.

To be clear - I am not saying that all unloving or self-centered people are in Hell, or even that any of them are. Just trying to explore with you the framework of how someone would come to reject God’s love and sanctifying grace.
 
I think Adolph Hitler was mentally ill (as I believe anyone is who commits atrocities). I have no reason to believe his soul isn’t in heaven, because with God, anything is possible.
 
I think that gets closer to the answer, but we still have to wonder about these people who end up on that path.

Is it their fault for wandering down that path, in the first place?
 
I think the principle you’re working with is definitely true. And as absurd at it is for us, for God, all things are possible.

But what I mean is, I wonder if someone like Hitler could actually willingly choose evil knowingly, in preference to God and their ultimate good. Do you think it is unlikely for anyone to do so?
 
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RealisticCatholic said:
I think that gets closer to the answer, but we still have to wonder about these people who end up on that path.

Is it their fault for wandering down that path, in the first place?
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Sometimes, I think. But I don’t think that is the full answer. I don’t think there is a full answer. I think that every good Christian should share your concerns about Hell. I think that real, serious, adult reflection about these concepts can be illuminating. A cartoonish view of Hell (or one based on schadenfreude) is neither healthy or helpful in our own spiritual development.
 
@Magnanimity that you know of, did Augustine ever fret over whether or not an eternal hell made actual sense? In other words, did he accept the scriptural data based on his understanding it to be an eternal hell, and yet did he have difficulty with it?
 
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