Making Hell make sense

[CRV]

People describe places all the time. I remember my friend from the midwest who came to visit and had never seen the ocean before at the beach. Obviously she had seen it in the movies, in pictures, etc. But she couldn’t get over the reality of it, the enormous size of it, the sound of it, etc. until she actually saw it.

Experiencing something is different to having knowledge it exists.

Saying people choose hell

Is not meant to be taken as choosing a actual destination e.g. a definite of choice of location for a holiday.
What is meant by choosing hell, is that an individual is choosing the opposite of God , choosing evil over the greatest good - God Himself. The first pain of hell is the eternal separation from God. Perhaps the soul at its particular judgment fully realizes who God is and thus fully realizing what it has lost is the first pain it suffers for all eternity.

 

[JMMJ]

But what I mean is, I wonder if someone like Hitler could actually willingly choose evil knowingly, in preference to God and their ultimate good. Do you think it is unlikely for anyone to do so?

No. I don’t really believe that. God, His love for us, heaven, eternal life, all of these concepts are so grand that we aren’t able to even understand how great they are. We like to think we know. We speculate. We rely on history and tradition. The truth is, we don’t have a clue.

As we said before, all things are possible with God.

 

[po18guy]

Hell is de fide. End of conversation on that bit. Those who disagree are simply wrong.

Now, as to freely choosing, this implies actively, consciously choosing. Not so. Our default is hell. No one deserves to go to heaven. No one can earn heaven. We attain to it solely via God’s grace.

Honestly, we regularly hear that “someone” said this or that, or a Church father or great Saint said this or that. Wonderful - but they do not control truth. The catechism is the distillation of revealed truth. If the catechism says yes, it is yes. If it says no, then it’s no. The Church with the power of binding and loosing has spoken.

Disagree with that and you really need God’s mercy and grace.

 

[Pug]

We seem to have the ability to be moved by a lesser or perceived good at the expense of our full good. Say I murder someone because I am in emotional turmoil and it allows me some type of release or soothes my thirst for vengeance. For a Christian, the move is illogical in view of my full good, since I know where my full good lies. I don’t think we typically choose hell per se (hell being exclusion from our very end and good). However, maybe someone is so disgusted with God’s perceived policies that they might choose hell rather than submit to his way of things.

 

[CRV]

We choose hell by the commission of a single mortal sin.

Say I murder someone because I am in emotional turmoil and it allows me some type of release or soothes my thirst for vengeance.

There are intentions, circumstances which may lessen an individuals’ culpuability. Though murdering someone out of a desire for vengence in my opinion would only increase the individuals culpability as it increases the malice behind the deed.
Romans 12:19 ‘Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”’

 

[Pug]

We choose hell by the commission of a single mortal sin.

I think my point was missed. Usually the person does not say, today I will go out and choose hell. Rather, they go out and say, I would feel a lot better if so and so were dead, so I think I’l go murder them. That action has consequences, such as loss of sanctifying grace, etc. They chose that action because they want something, and that choice carries potentially eternal consequences, which they may or may not care about at the time. But I don’t think most sinners go out and choose grave sin as a means to obtain hell.

 

[thistle]

The Catholic Faith maintains the possibility of an eternal hell. (However, on some parts of CAF, it has been debated whether or not Catholicism truly requires belief in an eternal hell. But put that aside, for now.)

We cannot leave that aside. Catholics are bound to believe in Hell. There is no choice or debate. It is a Church teaching which must be believed.

 

[Wesrock]

This isn’t the most productive comment, but Christians used to be adamant that we could never deserve salvation. Nowadays it seems people think salvation is the only thing we could deserve.

 

[CRV]

I think my point was missed.

Forgive me if I have.

I would feel a lot better if so and so were dead, so I think I’l go murder them. That action has consequences,

True - the loss of heaven and an eternity in hell.

They chose that action because they want something,

yes, a desire for revenge - Romans 12:19, in effect they are usurping Gods’ role and right to exact justice.

that choice carries potentially eternal consequences, which they may or may not care about at the time.

As I see it, that hardly matters - whether the individual cares whether go end up in hell or not. It is sufficient that they know it is a serious violation of Gods law (assuming the person is Catholic, with a well formed conscience, but even non-Catholics know it is wrong to go out an murder someone - it is written in their hearts.)
It is sufficient that the person knows it is seriously wrong, and freely chooses to do it anyway. The same way that there are people who out or revenge murder another, and knowing they’ll end up in prison, they still don’t care about the consequences and go ahead and do it anyway. Still committed a crime and rightly sentenced to prison for it.

most sinners go out and choose grave sin as a means to obtain hell.

I wouldn’t think so as in “yep, I can’t wait to get to hell, so what seriously bad thing can I do to ensure I go there.”
Nevertheless, we know right from wrong and most Catholics know what objectively constitutes grave sin.

Example:- an individual is engaged to be married, is pressured by partner to give into having sex. This individual is a practicing Catholic - knows it is a mortal sin to have sex outside of marriage, remembers this but self justifies the act by thinking ‘what difference does it make, we’re going to be married anyway’, and so freely consents to having sex. Doesn’t change the fact the person committed a mortal sin and thus merits hell by their choice.

 

[RobynP]

As far as how someone could possibly choose hell freely, I always come back to Pope Benedict’s description of Hell in Spe Salvi

There can be people who have totally destroyed their desire for truth and readiness to love, people for whom everything has become a lie, people who have lived for hatred and have suppressed all love within themselves. This is a terrifying thought, but alarming profiles of this type can be seen in certain figures of our own history. In such people all would be beyond remedy and the destruction of good would be irrevocable: this is what we mean by the word Hell

It’s true that nobody would deny God if they knew He was their only true good, but the scary part about sin is how deeply it warps our hearts, so that good looks evil and evil looks good.

I think if there are people in hell (and the Church doesn’t say whether there are or not) they really don’t see God as good. They see him as an obstacle.

It’s hard to imagine that, but then again, we’re the species that invented one of the most gruesome torture devices imaginable and hung God on it. Maybe what’s more surprising is that any of us love God at all.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

Our default is hell.

Ouch. No.

No one goes to hell unless deliberately. The Catechism says that much, and so does Aquinas in his teaching on limbo.

It would be absurd to say humanity by nature is damned. For then God deliberately created humanity just to be damned.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

And yet, a simple act like this can merit an eternity of hell?

Something seems fishy.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

Well, the error here would be to equate our natural end to be hell.

That’s absurd.

One can still ask about the reasonableness of hell, and yet still say that Heaven is a supernatural grace not owed to anyone.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

There are Catholics on here more researched into this issue than I am.

They rightly point out the Tradition of the church has often included various divergences on the nature of hell and if anyone goes there.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

It’s true that nobody would deny God if they knew He was their only true good, but the scary part about sin is how deeply it warps our hearts, so that good looks evil and evil looks good.

So then…

People still go to hell through ignorance?

 

[Pug]

It is sufficient that the person knows it is seriously wrong, and freely chooses to do it anyway.

Yes, I never said or implied or thought otherwise. Hopefully that person repents. I also agree that the person does not need to know a list of doctrines to be culpable for grievous sin. EDIT: I failed to respond about the pressured fiance(e). God would judge the pressure against freedom of intention, but it could be fully mortal, yes.

I was responding to the OP, who wrote

it has to show that someone knowingly and freely chooses hell, such that the individual is getting what he wants.

I was discussing that theme. They are not wanting hell, typically, as in wanting eternal punishment or deliberately seeking to obtain their desire of being cut off from their supernatural end (I mean “end” like Aquinas means it). But there is usually something they want. I merely gave an illustration.

Hope that clarifies.

 

[Pug]

Normally not a simple act, not quite. For example, that act would also have to be followed by a lifetime of persistence in refusal to repent.

 

[CRV]

People still go to hell through ignorance?

Willful blindness as in “I don’t know, but I can’t be bothered finding out” or if someone isn’t sure about for example, the gravity of a sin, and does not take reasonable steps to find out, then they are guilty as charged.

After all, Catholics are obliged to know their Faith.

Ignorance — Invincible and Vincible

Catholic Encyclopedia:Ignorance

CCC #848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

CCC #1790-1793

 

[RobynP]

So then…

People still go to hell through ignorance?

I don’t know, is it ignorance or obstinance?

The will doesn’t always follow the intellect.

The souls in hell know they are wrong and that God is what their soul needs (there’s not really any true justice if they don’t) they just refuse to face the truth because it’s distasteful to their ego.

Heaven doesn’t appeal to them because it requires dying to self and receiving a mercy that they can’t accept. They’re locked in a self-centered universe.

Like the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son who wouldn’t join in on the festivities because the Father’s generosity offended him.

 

[fhansen]

So anyway, how can we make hell coherent? How can someone choose hell, even knowing God is his ultimate good and happiness?

How about hell being the knowing and free rejection of God? Not wanting to know Him, continuing to prefer oneself to Him as the catechism says that Adam did.