Making nice, but working against us

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That’s the problem with a lot of “Utah Mormons.” I’ve lived in Utah a couple of times, and even as a member, I didn’t like it. They don’t live the gospel as they should, and it shames the rest of the church. People like that are the reason we need a prophet to keep reminding us what we should be doing.

God bless,

Isaac Madsen
 
In Texas We had reps from the stake and mission presidencies who would come to joint relief society/priesthood meetings and “roleplay” with us to teach us how to get our friends to let the missionaries teach them in our homes or get them to church activities. Nothing nefarious I grant you but very “MLMish”. We were told to pray about which friends to focus on but to give the names and phone numbers of everyone so that they could be called and offered a free video/book/picture/etc. It was so much like the one and only amway meeting I went to (got “tricked” into that).
 
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isaac.madsen:
That’s the problem with a lot of “Utah Mormons.” I’ve lived in Utah a couple of times, and even as a member, I didn’t like it. They don’t live the gospel as they should, and it shames the rest of the church. People like that are the reason we need a prophet to keep reminding us what we should be doing.

God bless, Isaac Madsen
I have a relative who is in this church, and has been for a very long time. We live nowhere near Utah, but I have watched the same phenomenon occur freq over the years by many of their stake, and by them. They also offer to help all the time, and then witness’… unless there is a smoker around. The antics then are comical, with coughing, clearing of throats, waving ‘smoke away’ even if they are not standing near it. :confused:

…and they offer my adult children information all the time…"you don’t even have to join the church… just read it…’ while NEVER telling me that they are doing this. My kids do… and they don’t like it at all.

Invited us to ONLY their church baptism service for one of the kids (mentioned nothing of a party later at their home) knowing we would not attend a baptism in their church…told their child we did not come because we don’t love the child. Sad. When we found out, we told the child the truth. We did not know about the party later, loved her, but could not attend their church services. that had we known about the party later, we would have come to show we love the child, even though we could not attend the church aspect.

It is not just in Utah that this happens.
Sadly, when someone from that church now offers any help at all for anything, I wait for the eventual shoe to drop. The latest offer of help included a request to just simply ‘watch a movie’…which was very much geared to emotional response, very manipulative, complete with fading lights to black, silence, etc so we could allow their h s to witness to us …

This does not just happen in Utah… 😦
 
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Zakuska:
I saw some nuns a temple square once yes.
I assure you that if these nuns were protesting, they were doing without the blessings of the Catholic church. Bishop George Neiderauer has always stressed tolerance towards our LDS neighbors. Most of our priests do as well. If fact, Bishop Neiderauer was recently congratulated by the Vatican for how well he deals with the LDS church and guides Utah Catholics to do the same. So if there are any Catholics, especially nuns, protesting outside the LDS temples, they aren’t doing it on behalf of the Catholic church or the Utah dioceses.
 
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majick275:
We were told to pray about which friends to focus on but to give the names and phone numbers of everyone so that they could be called and offered a free video/book/picture/etc. It was so much like the one and only amway meeting I went to (got “tricked” into that).
How funny, I met Mormons for the first time when my dad was in Amway (his whole upline was LDS). That is how I ended up sitting through the canned missionary presentation, it was a result of a “prospecting party”.
 
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WICatholic:
I have a relative who is in this church, and has been for a very long time. We live nowhere near Utah, but I have watched the same phenomenon occur freq over the years by many of their stake, and by them. They also offer to help all the time, and then witness’… unless there is a smoker around. The antics then are comical, with coughing, clearing of throats, waving ‘smoke away’ even if they are not standing near it. :confused:

…and they offer my adult children information all the time…"you don’t even have to join the church… just read it…’ while NEVER telling me that they are doing this. My kids do… and they don’t like it at all.

Invited us to ONLY their church baptism service for one of the kids (mentioned nothing of a party later at their home) knowing we would not attend a baptism in their church…told their child we did not come because we don’t love the child. Sad. When we found out, we told the child the truth. We did not know about the party later, loved her, but could not attend their church services. that had we known about the party later, we would have come to show we love the child, even though we could not attend the church aspect.

It is not just in Utah that this happens.
Sadly, when someone from that church now offers any help at all for anything, I wait for the eventual shoe to drop. The latest offer of help included a request to just simply ‘watch a movie’…which was very much geared to emotional response, very manipulative, complete with fading lights to black, silence, etc so we could allow their h s to witness to us …

This does not just happen in Utah… 😦
why can you not go to lds church baptism services. i have been to yours nice priest by the way. we have had C of England vicars baptists ect at our wedding and childrens baptisms. just because you go to our church does not mean we will grab you. If you felt wrong for denying your children an oppertunity to share an important part in there friends life. and by the way faith is emotional if you do not get emotional in your faith maybe you need to talk to your priest and see what he can do to help you.
 
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cestusdei:
I went to an ex-mormon board and they had posted stories of their missions. They stated clearly how they proslytized Catholics including at their churches. They also told stories of how Mormons “befriend” non-mormons in order to convert them. Friendship was just a tactic. If they person didn’t join in a reasonable period of time they were dropped . . .
The practices you are describing are called ‘Relational Evangelism’ or ‘friendship evangelism’, often dubbed ‘friendshipping’ for short. It was expecially popular in the 1970’s and 1980’s not simply among Mormons but Evangelicals generally. I have even heard of a variant of it in a Roman Catholic Cursillo movement. Here are some non-LDS links to sites advocating the method:

biblehelp.org/evangelism.htm

ethnicharvest.org/ideas/friendship.htm

mindspring.com/~mamcgee/grace_friendship.html

A popular slogan of the proponents was “Make a friend, be a friend, lead a friend to Christ”. I stress that the middle part of the slogan was “BE a friend”. Responsible advocates of this concept ALWAYS urged people to evangelize by building GENUINE friendships, which would endure even if the Christless person went through rough periods where they seemed far away from God. What makes this advice somewhat difficult to follow is that Christians are also advised to be very judicious in the company they choose to keep regularly. I think the old Baltimore Catechism called it ‘avoiding bad associations’.

So–how does one ‘friendship’ a person who seems to be ‘seeking God’ on the one hand, yet, on the other hand also is involved in unsavory, un-Christian activities? The balancing act is difficult to work out and many people take a jaundiced view of relational evangelism generally. They feel it leads to a lot of shallow, temporary, ‘conditional’ friendships which are abandoned if the ‘prospect’ does not quickly convert.

I can tell you that I heard some talk about such methods in Mormon Sunday School and Priesthood meetings but ALWAYS heard the caveat that we should form REAL friendships with non-member friends and do the best we could do to make the relationship sincere and genuine. At the same time we were warned not to allow friendships with non-members to lead us into activities or situations contrary to Gospel principles–no bar-hopping or wild parties, no sexual entanglements, and so forth.

In many cases of course, the hard-core un-Godly choose to shun those who will not compromise their morals. Very often the errant one will then ‘project’ onto the Christian the motive of conditional love, when in fact it is usually the worldly person who prefers to keep religion and religious people at arm’s length. If the non-Christian suddenly ‘bottoms out’ and seeks out the former Christian friend again, they are nearly always given a warm welcome back a’ la’ the Prodigal Son parable.

Related to this is something known as ‘missionary dating’. I don’t mean dating a Mormon missionary, but the practice of a Christian man or woman trying to date a non-Christian person in order to lure them into church. For some reason, it is the women who are more often accused of this in my experience. Here in St. Louis, the practice is usually ascribed to ‘Catholic girls’. When I was stationed in Savanah Georgia, it was ascribed to Baptist girls. In the 1980’s I heard similar comments about ‘Pentecostal girls’ while in college, and when I lived briefly in Wisconsin I heard this ascribed to ‘Lutheran girls’. As a Mormon I of course heard about the practice ascribed to Mormons–especially ‘Mormon girls’.

I can tell you that in the LDS Church in particular this is a DISCOURAGED practice–it tends to lead the Mormon person into inactivity at least as often as it causes conversion. I actually got gently lectured about my own decision to marry a non-Mormon woman after my first marriage (which ultimately ended in divorce I hasten to add, lest anyone suspect me of polygamy LOL). The LDS greatly prefer that their members date and marry only faithful LDS, just as most members of most other sects and denominations prefer their members marry only their own sectaries. In practice however, teenagers and young adults often rebel by dating outside the fold; and often ultimately marry persons who do not share their religious heritage.

I suspect that a Mormon person may be able to cite a General Conference talk in which this practice of ‘missionary dating’ has been censured–I vaguely remember it coming up at least once.
 
So did you see my offer, Cestus?
Simple fix to this. Last I knew, you were in St. Louis, which leads me to suggest that the ‘national shrine’ you are speakng of is Our Lady of the Snows in Belleville, Illionois. As it so happens I live in the O’Fallon Stake, which I believe encompasses Belleville, and I therefore have access to the mailing address for the Stake President and other information. PM me and I will happily send you the info you would need to write a letter. The Stake President would need the date and approximate time and if possible the names of the missionaries involved. If you had photos of their activities, thse would be helpful. My guess is that if you send a letter of complaint as a Roman Catholic priest–you’ll get a response from the LDS Church posthaste.
 
Like Paul, we also make ourselves “all things to all people” that we may save some. You many disagree with the theology of out religion; but I don’t think that you can find fault with the tactics of our missionaries.

amgid

If the Mormon church is true, why is it necessary to hide so much of the doctrine “official/unofficial” until after an investigator is baptised. When I was going through RCIA all of my questions were answers, and I was encouraged to read both the Bible and the Catechism.
 
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isaac.madsen:
I’m sorry you feel that way, but the missionaries are not to “attack” people. Sure, they go door to door, but any missionary will tell you that this is one of the least effective ways to find a discussion. The majority of missionary discussions are completely voluntary by those who have come in contact with Mormonism at some point before in their lives, and are simply seeking to understand what we believe. Going door to door is simply a means of finding those who are searching, but don’t know where to look.

May God be with us all,

Isaac Madsen
The last time Mormon missionaries came to my door, I had to tell them several times I wasn’t interested before they left.

Michael
 
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Zakuska:
Speaking of Shameful!

fairlds.org/apol/antis/2002gc.html
fairlds.org/pubs/media/street03ah.wmv

The answer is we are… every six months to be exact…and the answer is we don’t reciprocate.

Every Six months the LDS church has General Conference in SLC and just look who shows up on our door steps?!

:rolleyes:

Were the two LDS missionaries holding any signs or shouting with bullhorns and being disruptive? Desicrating sacred clothing such as a priests smok or a collar or draging the bible through the gutters, placing a crucifix in a cup of bodily fluids?

So just who is playing nice? :eek:
Although I don’t agree with your religion, we do have the right to practice as we choose in this country. The people out there protesting should do so in a way that doesn’t infringe on the rights and dignity of other people.

Michael
 
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majick275:
In Texas We had reps from the stake and mission presidencies who would come to joint relief society/priesthood meetings and “roleplay” with us to teach us how to get our friends to let the missionaries teach them in our homes or get them to church activities. Nothing nefarious I grant you but very “MLMish”. We were told to pray about which friends to focus on but to give the names and phone numbers of everyone so that they could be called and offered a free video/book/picture/etc. It was so much like the one and only amway meeting I went to (got “tricked” into that).
“MLMish”?

Before I begin guessing, it’s best to ask, I think, what this acronym might mean.

I’d also like to share an interesting story that my missionary boys shared with me about proselytizing in the Deep South: If they are going door-to-door or driving or cycling in a neighborhood and notice a confederate flag flying, window decal, bumper sticker, car tag, etc., they will make their usual introduction and then one will say something to the effect of “I notice that you’re interested in the Civil War? Did you know that Joseph Smith, God’s Prophet and Seer and translator of the Book of Mormon was given a revelation from God that there would be a Civil War almost THIRTY YEARS before the Civil War actually started?”

Talk about a way to get invited in for a nice glass of sweet tea! (“No, sir, water would be just fine.”) And then let’s look at Section 87 and - I’ll be darned! - that Smith did forecast exactly what happened! The missionaries don’t, of course, dwell on this, and as most southern protestants are taught that the only thing worse than “Morons” are “Popists” (and can get testy if you insist you’re a Papist and not a Popist) they don’t get a lot of converts by even attempting (these days) to play the ‘racist’ card - but mentioning the Civil War and Section 87 can get you in some Deep South homes more quickly than you can say “white and delightsome”!
 
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mjf001:
The last time Mormon missionaries came to my door, I had to tell them several times I wasn’t interested before they left.

Michael
The last time Billy visited I had to tell him several times I wasnt intrested.
 
ben_dy said:
“MLMish”?

Before I begin guessing, it’s best to ask, I think, what this acronym might mean.

MLM stands for “Multi-Level Marketing”. AmWay is a prime example of an MLM. They are very deceptive and cultish in the way they approach potential customers and distributors.
God bless,
Paul
 
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PaulDupre:
MLM stands for “Multi-Level Marketing”. AmWay is a prime example of an MLM. They are very deceptive and cultish in the way they approach potential customers and distributors.
God bless,
Paul
Ah! Multi-Level Marketing! My late wife and I almost lost some very dear friends when they became Amway ‘distributors’. It took them almost a year for them to make the fiscal discovery that they were their best customers and that in attempting to sign up other distributors they were making themselves social pariahs. We stood by them and even bought some detergent, I believe, but it was a sorely overpriced product that was no better than a ‘store brand’.

I can see your metaphor - the sad thing that I saw was that they began full of excitement and certainty of wealth to come and ended up disillusioned with a load of junk which they were embarrassed to use but use it they did as they had paid so much for it. There is, I suppose, truth to the adage on the frequent delivery of mugs…
 
paul barlow:
why can you not go to lds church baptism services. i have been to yours nice priest by the way. we have had C of England vicars baptists ect at our wedding and childrens baptisms. just because you go to our church does not mean we will grab you. If you felt wrong for denying your children an oppertunity to share an important part in there friends life. and by the way faith is emotional if you do not get emotional in your faith maybe you need to talk to your priest and see what he can do to help you.
Because we do not participate in LDS ‘Baptism’, which is not recognized by our Church.

Wrong for not going? Not at all. It would not be any witness at all to ‘accept’ something that we believe is false. Faith is not emotional. Faith based on feelings can easily die out when things go wrong. I do not need help, and it is exactly this type of manipulation that ‘turns it on the other person’, and does not recognize that a great wrong was done to their child by telling her a falsehood, and essentially blaming HER for our not attending the ‘baptism’.

Your church does a very similar thing. You may come to our weddings, etc. However you prevent us from attending your Temple weddings, etc. We CAN attend the ‘party’ (wedding reception) afterwards, but not the wedding. Even if in the wedding party. This was NO different than our not attending a ‘baptism’ in your church, except that this is chosen by us, not forced by your church.

Insulting people by telling someone you do not know that they need help, and ‘feel bad’ when they don’t is not the answer, either.
 
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WICatholic:
Because we do not participate in LDS ‘Baptism’, which is not recognized by our Church.

Wrong for not going? Not at all. It would not be any witness at all to ‘accept’ something that we believe is false. Faith is not emotional. Faith based on feelings can easily die out when things go wrong. I do not need help, and it is exactly this type of manipulation that ‘turns it on the other person’, and does not recognize that a great wrong was done to their child by telling her a falsehood, and essentially blaming HER for our not attending the ‘baptism’.
If I am not mistaken, Catholics are permitted to attend certain kinds of religious services where there is ‘good reason’ and ‘no risk of offense of faith’ or something to that effect. In general, attending an LDS baptism would be an event one could attend, unless perhaps theperson receiving baptism was a former Roman Catholic who was renouncng Catholicism for Mrmonism or something like that. Perhaps an informed Roman Catholic could enunciate this better than I have done, but I don’t think there is a blanket prohibition against attending all non-Catholic services. If your children were invited, for example, to attend the baptism of one of their Latter-day Saint friends, or the smaller sibling of one of their friends, there would not be any special reason they could not. Of course, one would weigh the likelihood that the Catholic might be ‘evangelized’, which would represent a possible ‘offense to faith’. But if the Mormon family were good friends–one could hopefully explain the situation to them and explain that your son or daughter would be permitted to attend such an event ONLY if the LDS parties could assure you that your child would not be proselytised by attending. Of course, your child also could not participate in any religious aspect of the ceremony, but Mormons would be extremely unlikely to ask them to do so.

This is not to suggest that LDS baptisms are ‘valid’ by RCC standards. They are NOT, specifically because the Mormon understanding of the Godhead is so different from that of historic Christianity. Even though the same formula and the same elements are used, an LDS baptism cannot be called a proper Christian baptism, because there is not a proper ‘intent’.
Your church does a very similar thing. You may come to our weddings, etc. However you prevent us from attending your Temple weddings, etc. We CAN attend the ‘party’ (wedding reception) afterwards, but not the wedding. Even if in the wedding party. This was NO different than our not attending a ‘baptism’ in your church, except that this is chosen by us, not forced by your church.
I have to say that Mormon Temple Weddings are a very special case. Even Mormons cannot attend Temple ceremonies if they do not have a Temple Recommend, and so this is not a question of excluding people because they are non-Mormons. In fact, because of the smaller Temples being built in recent years, one is usually asked to invite only a relatively small number of guests to the ceremony. Even if most of a couple’s family were Temple-worthy, the couple likely would ask only a relatively small number of people to be in attendence. If a particular LDS couple chooses not to have a Temple wedding–non-LDS would be welcome. It is the place of the wedding which has special requirements for entry.

The situation is rather like a couple who choose to get married in a foreign land: only those who have the appropriate visa or passport could go to that country to attend the wedding. There are various reasons for not being able to enter a foreign land: perhaps one has a security clearance or does otherwise sensitive work for one country which precludes going to the country where the wedding is taking place. Perhaps the host country itself denies certain people entry.

This is much different from excluding people from something as a relgious gesture of disapproval. A Catholic is not obliged in most cases to ‘shun’ a wedding or similar service for religious reasons.
 
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flameburns623:
If I am not mistaken, Catholics are permitted to attend certain kinds of religious services where there is ‘good reason’ and ‘no risk of offense of faith’ or something to that effect. In general, attending an LDS baptism would be an event one could attend, unless perhaps theperson receiving baptism was a former Roman Catholic who was renouncng Catholicism for Mrmonism or something like that.
I do not think that I inferred that no Catholic can attend. I said our family chose not to attend the service. This was a former Catholic whose oldest was Baptized Catholic, whose other children are not. As a family, we will not attend (and give implicit approval to) the religious events.
But if the Mormon family were good friends–one could hopefully explain the situation to them and explain that your son or daughter would be permitted to attend such an event ONLY if the LDS parties could assure you that your child would not be proselytised by attending. Of course, your child also could not participate in any religious aspect of the ceremony, but Mormons would be extremely unlikely to ask them to do so.
My children, when young, stayed at their home for nearly two weeks, in which time, they promised to take my children to a Catholic Mass, and not to their church, allowing me to decide to let them stay, while I drove the 1500 miles home without them. Before I had left, the yellow pages had been consulted to find a nearby Catholic Church… When my children returned home with them, I was told by them that they had NOT gone to Mass, but had gone to the LDS service.

This is only one example of the duplicity involved. There have been others, including outright proselytizing of our children over the years right up to the present, as well as our siblings.

Part of the duplicity is that it was known that we would not attend Mormon church functions, but would attend family functions. For this reason, the invite that we received mentioned ONLY the Baptism time and place. The family celebration held at the home later was not mentioned.

The result was a hurt child, who was then told that we did not attend because we did not love her. :eek: That was not only a lie, but also put us in a very bad light. It took nearly a year before we found this out, with the resultant damage to the child continuing. An 8 yr old not loved by aunts, uncles, cousins, and grandma?
I have to say that Mormon Temple Weddings are a very special case. Even Mormons cannot attend Temple ceremonies if they do not have a Temple Recommend, and so this is not a question of excluding people because they are non-Mormons.
Yes, a well known fact, but still points out a similarity in thinking. These are Temple Recommend Mormons.
This is much different from excluding people from something as a relgious gesture of disapproval. A Catholic is not obliged in most cases to ‘shun’ a wedding or similar service for religious reasons.
“Shun” is not the term. To ‘shun’ means to keep them out of your lives. This has not been done. To choose not to attend a religious service is not shunning. Long before this, they were made aware of our feelings and beliefs. Their own duplicity entered into this situation from the begining.

A Catholic is also not supposed to attend the wedding of another Catholic outside the Church , though many do. Add the fact that it is a divorced person marrying outside the Church without having gone before the Tribunal, and it makes it even more serious. To attend the wedding service implies approval. Regardless, that was not the point that I was making.

The point was, what was being said to take place only in Utah does not just happen in Utah. And my family is not the only one who lives outside of Utah who has witnessed it.

The point of the post that you used to respond was that the writer was attempting to make it seem that I am in need of help, etc. To turn the tables and take the focus off of what had been said, and is typical of things that I have witnessed many times, in order to not deal with the issue at hand. To make it personal, rather than a discussion. To change the meaning of what was said, and to twist it.

The reasons we did not attend had been made clear long before. The previous duplicity of the family in question had been manifest long before. The resultant lie that was told to their daughter was, in fact, VERY similar to what the writer was trying to do here, but much more personal, and very hurtful to that eight year old.
 
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cestusdei:
I was visiting a major Catholic shrine this week. A huge and important one. Who was hanging around outside looking to collar catholics on our own home turf? That’s right, 2 young men in white shirts with Elder badges. Keep this in mind when they make nice with you. It is only to get us off guard.
I for one thankyou as I am sure others do, for bringing this to light. God Bless you,Lisa:)
 
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mjf001:
If the Mormon church is true, why is it necessary to hide so much of the doctrine “official/unofficial” until after an investigator is baptised. When I was going through RCIA all of my questions were answers, and I was encouraged to read both the Bible and the Catechism.
There is no such thing as “official/unofficial” doctrine in the Church.

amgid
 
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