Making Some Headway in Catholic Justification

[Bookcat]

T

What I am trying to nail down here is the statement made by Clement. It is quite un-catholic. It doesn’t even line up with Catholic teaching in one aspect or dimension. For Catholics understand “justified” as being “made righteous” and so God is not lying when He calls us righteous because he puts righteousness into us. This is simply just not a viable option in Clement, for his question proceeding the statement that we are justified is the rhetorical question of whether we can live without doing anything good. Goodness gracious people, if Clement understood “justified” as the process of being made holy, how could he possibly come up with this proceeding question?

He states clearly:

“And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

Just as I have been discussing. Such echos what Paul and Pope Benedict XVI write about.

Then he says:

“What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work.”

Which is basically say – yes I have said we are not justified by our good works --but does that mean that we are not to DO good works? No we are to do them!..

“let us work the work of righteousness with our whole strength.”

It is a similar device that St. Paul uses-- when he says after discussing that where sin abounded grace abounded even more–he says basically --so does that mean we are to sin more for more grace!! No! …(I speak to the way of speech here).

So basically he is saying that while one is justified by grace -not because of good works – one is to not for that reason sit back and not do good works! One is to do them indeed!

 

[Bookcat]

Moreover,… the works that do not contribute, according to Clement, are not Torah stipulations only, but also works of holiness and righteousness, completing exposing the historicity of the Lutheran definition applied to “works of the Law” (Rom 3:28) while not denying the more pertinent issue of Jewish exclusivism. The works really do include love and holiness general.

This quote from Clement is radically protestant, it’s scary.

Nope he was Catholic…and Pope

In saying basically what we have been saying (Paul and Pope Benedict XVI…and some little cat who likes books) – he is again echoing what has been said…

And he continues in his letter to then talk about rewards etc…of the Lord rendering to everyone according to their “work”…

Trying to fit a particular Fathers discussion in a letter likely on the run into the debates some 1500 years down the calendar is going to run into various difficulties. The language and the concerns and the discussion is rather different.

(as for works of the law and “works” they are different but also similar…I set aside references to Luther to the experts in the Catholic-Lutheran dialogue)

 

[Bookcat]

When the discussion of Justification turns to “process” such does *not *mean that it is held the person was not “justified” as Paul describes in the quotes the Pope refers to there. Yes the person is justified as he describes. Such is the moving from not being in Christ to being living “in Christ”. He is a “saint”

*He is justified. *

Amen.

Then …yes after that justification – good works enter in (by grace)-- and there can be yes an “increase” in justification…the person can more and more “walk in charity” --“faith working in love”…

And can it be said too that person can begin to exercise love of God etc from their baptism? Yes!

Fruit can begin right away. Unlike trees it need not wait til the fruit season.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

What Paul means by “justified” is the same thing Jesus said about the Tax Collector beating his chest in the temple crying out “Lord, have mercy on me a sinner”.

Repentance puts someone in the right-relationship with God. But if sin continues, obviously he is condemned. Therefore, good works are necessary.

I can accept this.

 

[Bookcat]

What Paul means by “justified” is the same thing Jesus said about the Tax Collector beating his chest in the temple crying out “Lord, have mercy on me a sinner”.

Repentance puts someone in the right-relationship with God. But if sin continues, obviously he is condemned. Therefore, good works are necessary.

I can accept this.

I would say rather that Paul means *more *than that example…

---

And yes mortal sin can bring death …and necessitate a new infusion of grace from God.

 

[Bookcat]

And it is important to note that by faith opposed by works --Paul is not meaning faith as a mere intellectual act. It is more like getting married…than assenting that marriage exists.

And charity is not excluded.

Paul is discussing “faith and works” in dealing with a* very particular difficulty* there in the first century.

(readers…read all three audiences I linked above)

And in the history of theology and the usage of the Church there have been differing senses of the word “faith”.

 

[mercytruth]

QUOTE=Erick_Ybarra;9896001]Notice a couple of points:

1. It is impossible for Clement to use the word “justified” (dikaioo) to mean “make righteous” or to be ontologically converted from practicing sin to practicing righteousness, for he comes to ask rhetorically afterward “Shall we continue in sin and not do what is righteous?”. If the word “justified” meant that God makes my righteous through faith, in the sense that they are converted to be holy, then there would be no purpose or point or logic to Clement’s question after ward.

1. Clement here teaches that all “works” are non-contributory to justification, even moral and holy. Therefore, the exclusive inclusion of outward ceremonial jewish rituals are not the only thing spoken of when Clement says “apart from works”.

Yes, we are justified by faith, but it is not our faith. It is our reliance on the faith of Jesus Christ that justifies us. “but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men”. So, St. Clement is saying that it is not our **own **works that make us righteous, but it is the works **‘of the author and finisher of faith’ **that is making us righteous.

This is why in chapter III, St. Clement says that due to envy and emulation…… righteousness and peace are now far departed from you, inasmuch as every one abandons the fear of God, and is become blind in His faith neither walks in the ordinances of His appointment, nor acts a part becoming a Christian, but walks after his own wicked lusts, resuming the practice of an unrighteous and ungodly envy, by which death itself entered the world"

Finally, St. Clement says in chapter xxvii, "Let His faith therefore be stirred up again within us, That is, return to the works of righteousness that is through the very faith of Jesus Christ living in us and through us.

St.Clement does not mention the forgiveness of sins that the members of the Corinthian church had received through their baptismal belief in our Lord Jesus Christ, but it is a given. He was basically saying to the church of Corinth that they had become blind to the faith of Jesus Christ through envy, and that as a result, they were not walking in the very faith of God that produces righteousness. He encourages them to stir up this faith of God that is through and in our Lord Jesus Christ, by drawing near to God with holiness of spirit…for “He resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble”

1. It seems as though he is saying that men are “declared righteous” through “faith”, which is basically protestant. The insistence on doing good is the same kind of logic utilized by Calvin and Luther, they the “faith” which justifies, if it does not have good works, is dead and avails to no salvation at all.

Not through our own good works, but the good works that are manifested through us after our baptismal forgivness of sins in the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1. How can we Catholics argue that Clement is actually teaching what Trent meant ? Keeping in mind that Trent understood “justified” to include both notions of remission of sins and the process of being “made holy”.

St. Clement does not mention baptism, because this is an epistle to the church of Corinth which had fallen from their reliance on the faith of Jesus Christ through envy.

Some quotes from other early church fathers regarding the faith of Jesus Christ himself:

“Having been informed of your godly love, so well ordered, I rejoiced greatly, and determined to commune with you in the faith of Jesus Christ.”
(Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians).

"Hence also we are strong in His faith and doctrine,…
(Justin Martyr’s dialogue with Trypho, chapter LIII).

"But when thou altogether despisest fear, and rejectest with scorn the very faith of Christ, it were better for thee that thou hadst never been born from the womb."
(Fragments from the Lost Writings of Justin Martyr quoted by John of Damascus)

"Moreover, that righteousness shoud subsist by faith, and that in it was life, was predicted by Habakkuk: ‘Now the just shall live by my faith’**(from theSeptuagint Version) (The Treatises of Cyprian, Treatise XII, Testimonies 5)

"These are the precepts which He ordered to be observed. But He exhibited faith towards God…On which account, because He was so faithful, because He arrogated nothing at all to Himself, that He might fulfil the commands of Him who sent Him, He received the dignity of everlasting Priest, and the honour of supreme King, and the authority of Judge, and the name of God."
(Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, Book IV, Chapter XIV).

God’s peace

micah

 

[fhansen]

Notice a couple of points:

1. It is impossible for Clement to use the word “justified” (dikaioo) to mean “make righteous” or to be ontologically converted from practicing sin to practicing righteousness, for he comes to ask rhetorically afterward “Shall we continue in sin and not do what is righteous?”. If the word “justified” meant that God makes my righteous through faith, in the sense that they are converted to be holy, then there would be no purpose or point or logic to Clement’s question after ward.

Of course it would be logical for Clement to think God would make the believer ontologically righteous, unless we were to believe that God didn’t make Adam ontologically righteous. The redeemed are placed in the same standing as Adam, who nonetheless fell, i.e. sinned.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

But “justified” never carries this meaning either in clement on in the new testament

 

[Bookcat]

But “justified” never carries this meaning either in clement on in the new testament

It helps if you include what to whom your responding in your replies

(I know I do not always either…)

Not sure who or what is meant here.

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

Well I am going against the previous post which said :
*
Of course it would be logical for Clement to think God would make the believer ontologically righteous, unless we were to believe that God didn’t make Adam ontologically righteous. The redeemed are placed in the same standing as Adam, who nonetheless fell, i.e. sinned.*

I just do not think that people are realizing that Clement does not use the word “justified” as “make ontologically righteous”, for if this is what he meant, then the rhetorical question that follows is just an illogical occurence.

It would be like if I said: " By the way, God is coming into your inner hearts and is transforming you into the image of His Son and he is, through faith, making you righteous in your life and behavior and in your conduct… Should we continue in sin?"

The logic does not follow.

Rather, Clement is referring to that state of grace that we enter when we repent and believe, whether it is at the beginning of the christian life or at the end of the christian life, faith and faith alone is what is putting man in the right-relationship with God. But faith is always accompanied by works, but works are never contributory to justification, but serve to show that faith is at work and thus is saving the person.

 

[Bookcat]

I just do not think that people are realizing that Clement does not use the word “justified” as “make ontologically righteous”, for if this is what he meant, then the rhetorical question that follows is just an illogical occurence.

It would be like if I said: " By the way, God is coming into your inner hearts and is transforming you into the image of His Son and he is, through faith, making you righteous in your life and behavior and in your conduct… Should we continue in sin?" .

He states:

“And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

Just as I have been discussing. Such echos what Paul and Pope Benedict XVI write about.

Then he says:

“What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work.”

Which is basically saying – yes I have said we are not justified by our good works --but does that mean that we are not to DO good works? No we are to do them!..

“let us work the work of righteousness with our whole strength.”

It is a similar device that St. Paul uses-- when he says after discussing that where sin abounded grace abounded even more–he says basically --so does that mean we are to sin more for more grace!! No! …(I speak to the way of speech here).

So basically he is saying that while one is justified by grace -not because of good works – one is to not for that reason sit back and not do good works! One is to do them indeed!

 

[Bookcat]

As to “behavior” --just because one is changed ontologically by grace – does not mean that the struggle against the “old man” does not continue to take place. That ones “behavior” is automatically perfected -as Paul notes one is to put off the old man and put on the new…by the Spirit one is to put to death the deeds of the “flesh” and to “walk in the Spirit”. One is a new creation --one is in a state of grace and must continue to “remain” living in Christ and to not do again those gravely sinful things one did before …one is not to “return to ones vomit”. And one is work on being conformed more to Christ to work against the smaller sins and to grow in virtue. One is to do good --to produce fruit — “faith working in love”.

 

[Bookcat]

Rather, Clement is referring to that state of grace that we enter when we repent and believe, whether it is at the beginning of the christian life or at the end of the christian life, faith and faith alone is what is putting man in the right-relationship with God. But faith is always accompanied by works, but works are never contributory to justification, but serve to show that faith is at work and thus is saving the person.

As Paul puts it – (which is what Clement is echoing) --one is saved by grace through faith not “works” (much of what was meant there was works of the Torah…but “good works” too are not what “justifies one” initially).

It is grace. Not “faith as a work” or “works of the law” or “good works” that justifies one. It is the “work” to use the term – of God the Father…it is the “work” of Christ…it is the “work” of the Holy Spirit. Yes the person who is an older person is certainly “involved” in that entering into a “state of grace” (they have free will and an intellect …acted upon by grace) but it is not their “works” that “justifies them”. As Pope Benedict noted about this: “this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God”.

(indeed there can be no supernatuallualy fruitful good works until God puts them into a state of grace…)

 

[Bookcat]

And it is important to note that justification is a term in particular used in the disagreement (to put it lightly) with those who wished Gentiles to be circumcised etc. It is not the main term used in Sacred Scripture…and the terms can manifest a certain fluidity even. Paul himself *loves *differing terms and metaphors.

 

[fhansen]

Well I am going against the previous post which said :
*
Of course it would be logical for Clement to think God would make the believer ontologically righteous, unless we were to believe that God didn’t make Adam ontologically righteous. The redeemed are placed in the same standing as Adam, who nonetheless fell, i.e. sinned.*

I just do not think that people are realizing that Clement does not use the word “justified” as “make ontologically righteous”, for if this is what he meant, then the rhetorical question that follows is just an illogical occurence.

It would be like if I said: " By the way, God is coming into your inner hearts and is transforming you into the image of His Son and he is, through faith, making you righteous in your life and behavior and in your conduct… Should we continue in sin?"

The logic does not follow.

Rather, Clement is referring to that state of grace that we enter when we repent and believe, whether it is at the beginning of the christian life or at the end of the christian life, faith and faith alone is what is putting man in the right-relationship with God. But faith is always accompanied by works, but works are never contributory to justification, but serve to show that faith is at work and thus is saving the person.

Man’s will is always involved in his justification-or in his remaining just. So even though Adam was made righteous, the question still faced him, "Shall I disobey God, shall I eat of the fruit, shall I sin?"

 

[Erick_Ybarra]

You must understand that the revelation of God’s righteousness is a divine mystery that has been revealed in the coming of Jesus Christ, but was in a sense hidden, though there is witness to it, from the human race up until the point of Christ.

The mystery is that “faith” and not any work of mankind is what God’s reckons as the man’s righteousness (Rom 4:1-4) and that it is this “righteousness” which God imputes to the person that sets him in the right-relationship with God.

Now, can someone have “faith” which is imputed for righteousness, and then at the same time continue in sin because he has “faith”?

Absolutely not! Faith without works never avails anyone to salvation. Works must be there to complete faith. But it is “faith” alone which is accounted for righteousness.

This is precisely what James understands when he says that Genesis 15:6 was a prophecy of Abraham’s justification by works.

 

[Bookcat]

Now, can someone have “faith” which is imputed for righteousness, and then at the same time continue in sin because he has “faith”?

Absolutely not! Faith without works never avails anyone to salvation. Works must be there to complete faith. But it is “faith” alone which is accounted for righteousness.

This is precisely what James understands when he says that Genesis 15:6 was a prophecy of Abraham’s justification by works.

A mortal sin brings death where there was the life of grace in the soul. So no a person can not live in a state of grace and continue in a way of mortal sin.

As Paul notes it is grace that one is saved…it is by faith (he does not say “faith alone”)…and not by “works” that one is justified. That one becomes justified.

(And it is important that Paul is addressing in his discussions a very particular dispute with those who wished the Gentiles to live like Jews.)

as for Paul and James:

“Seen in this perspective, the centrality of justification without works, the primary object of Paul’s preaching, does not clash with faith that works through love; indeed, it demands that our faith itself be expressed in a life in accordance with the Spirit. Often there is seen an unfounded opposition between St Paul’s theology and that of St James, who writes in his Letter: “as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead”(2: 26). In reality, while Paul is primarily concerned to show that faith in Christ is necessary and sufficient, James accentuates the consequential relations between faith and works (cf. Jas 2: 24). Therefore, for both Paul and James, faith that is active in love testifies to the freely given gift of justification in Christ. Salvation received in Christ needs to be preserved and witnessed to “with fear and trembling. For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure… Do all things without grumbling or questioning… holding fast the word of life”, St Paul was to say further, to the Christians of Philippi (cf. Phil 2: 12-14, 16).”

–Pope Benedict XVI (links above)

 

[TimothyH]

You must understand that the revelation of God’s righteousness is a divine mystery that has been revealed in the coming of Jesus Christ, but was in a sense hidden, though there is witness to it, from the human race up until the point of Christ.

The mystery is that “faith” and not any work of mankind is what God’s reckons as the man’s righteousness (Rom 4:1-4) and that it is this “righteousness” which God imputes to the person that sets him in the right-relationship with God.

Now, can someone have “faith” which is imputed for righteousness, and then at the same time continue in sin because he has “faith”?

Absolutely not! Faith without works never avails anyone to salvation. Works must be there to complete faith. But it is “faith” alone which is accounted for righteousness.

This is precisely what James understands when he says that Genesis 15:6 was a prophecy of Abraham’s justification by works.

Catholics do not believe in imputed righteousness.

Righteousness in Catholicism is actual. God does not cover up sins, but removes them. Sins are blotted out (exalipho), removed, a person is washed and cleansed, A person is neither merely declared righteous, nor is righteousness imputed as an attribute of God which is applied to the individual Christian apart from their inherent nature, but a person is actually made to be so.

Psalm 103:12
Isaiah 43:25
Isaiah 44:22
Ezekiel 37:23

*Repent, therefor, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out. (Acts 3:19)

The blood of Jesus, his cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1:7)

He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)*
That is Catholic doctrine.

-Tim-

 

[fhansen]

You must understand that the revelation of God’s righteousness is a divine mystery that has been revealed in the coming of Jesus Christ, but was in a sense hidden, though there is witness to it, from the human race up until the point of Christ.

The mystery is that “faith” and not any work of mankind is what God’s reckons as the man’s righteousness (Rom 4:1-4) and that it is this “righteousness” which God imputes to the person that sets him in the right-relationship with God.

Now, can someone have “faith” which is imputed for righteousness, and then at the same time continue in sin because he has “faith”?

Absolutely not! Faith without works never avails anyone to salvation. Works must be there to complete faith. But it is “faith” alone which is accounted for righteousness.

This is precisely what James understands when he says that Genesis 15:6 was a prophecy of Abraham’s justification by works.

It’s not what faith is, as if faith is the equivalent of righteousness or even sufficient in place of true righteousness; rather it’s what faith does- and must be leading to, which is increasing authentic righteousness as time, grace, and opportunity allow. Consider the Parable of the Talents to see what happened to the servant who refused to cooperate by investing what he’d been given. Also Luke12:48