Malta: Priests ‘confused’ over bishops’ new guidelines

[SAVINGRACE]

And the Word of God? What of That? Does it also need to be reformed? If so, I hope I’m there when somebody explains to Christ why and how he was wrong.

I’m keeping my mouth shut on this one and focussing on praying for the whole Church. Sometimes it is better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

 

[esieffe]

Well I feel a little bit let down about all of this. I am hoping that at some point the Holy Father will address this with more clarity. What bothers me the most is that it has not been addressed or clarified at all.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Well I feel a little bit let down about all of this. I am hoping that at some point the Holy Father will address this with more clarity. What bothers me the most is that it has not been addressed or clarified at all.

Well, if he opens his mouth, we all know what he’ll say. He could not have made it clearer. Then what? Does one dare to say it? Problem is I am beginning to suspect that even if he keeps dodging a formal response, the same thing is going to happen. (schism) Not sure we can put a lid on this. To my mind, this lack of response / pushing CDR in through the back door is a serious miscalculation, misjudgment on the part of the Francis camp, more than anything intentional. No one could plan this, right - where we are now?

 

[Tobias2]

Well, if he opens his mouth, we all know what he’ll say. He could not have made it clearer. Then what? Does one dare to say it? Problem is I am beginning to suspect that even if he keeps dodging a formal response, the same thing is going to happen. (schism) Not sure we can put a lid on this. To my mind, this lack of response / pushing CDR in through the back door is a serious miscalculation, misjudgment on the part of the Francis camp, more than anything intentional. No one could plan this, right - where we are now?

If you believe in the promise in Scripture made to the Church, if you believe in V1 and the ineffability of the Pope on matters of faith and morals (inability to teach error) then why would a schism occur if the Pope formally defines the elements inherent in Al? If one leaves the Church because it does not teach what you want it to teach then one is effectively Protestant. Putting one’s personal beliefs above that of the Vicar of Christ and the Church. That is what Martin Luther did 500 years ago.

IMO its a Protestant spirit stirring all this controversy up and promoting it on blogs and through suspect groups.

 

[JimG]

If you believe in the promise in Scripture made to the Church, if you believe in V1 and the ineffability of the Pope on matters of faith and morals (inability to teach error) then why would a schism occur if the Pope formally defines the elements inherent in Al? If one leaves the Church because it does not teach what you want it to teach then one is effectively Protestant. Putting one’s personal beliefs above that of the Vicar of Christ and the Church. That is what Martin Luther did 500 years ago.

IMO its a Protestant spirit stirring all this controversy up and promoting it on blogs and through suspect groups.

I think you mean infallibility. Only God is ineffable. But Pope Francis has not exercised an infallible proclamation in this matter. Heck, he has not even clarified the precise meaning of the passages of A.L. about which there are differing interpretations.

 

[gus]

I’m keeping my mouth shut on this one and focussing on praying for the whole Church. Sometimes it is better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

I think your right ,this forum has become a near occasion of sin for me.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

This is the Catholic version of " I identify as"

 

[Richard_White]

That’s true. But it’s not just sexual morality that society has messed up. The underlying problem is the flowering of subjectivism. Fr. Timothy Vaverek surveys the damage here.

Indeed. Father Vaverek is spot on.

 

[FollowChrist34]

If you believe in the promise in Scripture made to the Church, if you believe in V1 and the ineffability of the Pope on matters of faith and morals (inability to teach error) then why would a schism occur if the Pope formally defines the elements inherent in Al? If one leaves the Church because it does not teach what you want it to teach then one is effectively Protestant. Putting one’s personal beliefs above that of the Vicar of Christ and the Church. That is what Martin Luther did 500 years ago.

IMO its a Protestant spirit stirring all this controversy up and promoting it on blogs and through suspect groups.

The practical implications of AL in terms of conscience and morality put Francis and the RCC far beyond the Protestantism of Martin Luther. Think ELCA.

 

[Randolph]

I think you mean infallibility. Only God is ineffable. But Pope Francis has not exercised an infallible proclamation in this matter. Heck, he has not even clarified the precise meaning of the passages of A.L. about which there are differing interpretations.

Precisely… That’s what is so puzzling about whole thing.

But I am convinced of a planned strategy prior to the Synod to muddle the water on the issues of sins and irregular situation. Comments from Kasper (I heard it from the pope himself), Marx (not a branch of Rome), Cupich (involatile of conscience), and Spadaro (possible to receive Communion for irregular couples) along with the deafening silence of Pope Francis foreshadowed what were to come. After the release of AL, we heard from these cardinals: “It changes everything”, “It’s clear to me”, “a game changer”, etc… Now, the Council of Cardinals (personally appointed by Pope Francis)–not the College of Cardinals–expressed its support. If there is nothing wrong with AL, it will stand on its merits. Why even assemble a PR machine behind it?

This division will get much, MUCH uglier and nastier, and it will damage the Church. We will see the spin machine at full throttle.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Precisely… That’s what is so puzzling about whole thing.

But I am convinced of a planned strategy prior to the Synod to muddle the water on the issues of sins and irregular situation. Comments from Kasper (I heard it from the pope himself), Marx (not a branch of Rome), Cupich (involatile of conscience), and Spadaro (possible to receive Communion for irregular couples) along with the deafening silence of Pope Francis foreshadowed what were to come. After the release of AL, we heard from these cardinals: “It changes everything”, “It’s clear to me”, “a game changer”, etc… Now, the Council of Cardinals (personally appointed by Pope Francis)–not the College of Cardinals–expressed its support.

This division will get much, MUCH uglier and nastier, and it will damage the Church. We ain’t seen nothing yet…

Damage the Church…it’s a revolution intended to completely overhaul it. Modernize it. Customize it. This is deep into liberal Protestant territory. People don’t understand this. I think that is what the revolutionaries are banking on. Ignorance. And indifference. In the laity I mean. Diffidence in the clergy. They might pull it off. But then I don’t know about that. We’ll see. Never thought I would see this in my life.

 

[abucs]

That’s true. But it’s not just sexual morality that society has messed up. The underlying problem is the flowering of subjectivism. Fr. Timothy Vaverek surveys the damage here.

Interesting viewpoint from Father Vaverek.

Thus, in a single year the issue has gone from considering Holy Communion in rare cases for the “remarried” to entrusting local bishops with determining policy, to mandating Holy Communion for everyone in “good” conscience, to claiming this innovation is integral to being in communion with Rome. If this latter position stands, there will be no room for the consciences of priests or the authority of bishops who disagree.

This is the Catholic version of " I identify as"

The day we take on the thinking of political correctness is the day we head into decline.

God deliver us from that day.

 

[Ghosty]

If you believe in the promise in Scripture made to the Church, if you believe in V1 and the ineffability of the Pope on matters of faith and morals (inability to teach error) then why would a schism occur if the Pope formally defines the elements inherent in Al? If one leaves the Church because it does not teach what you want it to teach then one is effectively Protestant. Putting one’s personal beliefs above that of the Vicar of Christ and the Church. That is what Martin Luther did 500 years ago.

IMO its a Protestant spirit stirring all this controversy up and promoting it on blogs and through suspect groups.

If the Pope infallibly defines something contrary to something that has been infallibly taught for 2000 years, then the Gates of Hell have prevailed and the Catholic Church is not the Church Christ established.

 

[JPUSC]

If the Pope infallibly defines something contrary to something that has been infallibly taught for 2000 years, then the Gates of Hell have prevailed and the Catholic Church is not the Church Christ established.

Hear, hear!

 

[JimG]

It is rather ironic that Catholics who belong to some of the most uncatechized generations in recent history, whose consciences have been malformed by the sexual revolution and secular media, whose training in faith and morals and Catholic doctrine has been sadly neglected, are now being told to rely on their very own consciences to the exclusion of everything else! No need to learn moral theology, to study scripture, or to consider historic Catholic teaching handed down from the Apostles. Just use your own consciences, never mind its shortcomings.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Unitarian Universalists believe that each person is free to search for his or her own personal truth on issues, such as the existence, nature, and meaning of life, deities, creation, and afterlife. UUs can come from any religious background, and hold beliefs and adhere to morals from a variety of cultures or religions.

google.com/#q=unitarianism

Check out how cool these folks are!!! Light years ahead of us. (

(oh and BTW, Luther called these folks fanatics, just as a point of reference, and on the far end of that as far as he was concerned - Calvin was the conservative start of that spectrum)

Fasten your seat belt. We are just getting started.

 

[Pulvis]

It is rather ironic that Catholics who belong to some of the most uncatechized generations in recent history, whose consciences have been malformed by the sexual revolution and secular media, whose training in faith and morals and Catholic doctrine has been sadly neglected, are now being told to rely on their very own consciences to the exclusion of everything else! No need to learn moral theology, to study scripture, or to consider historic Catholic teaching handed down from the Apostles. Just use your own consciences, never mind its shortcomings.

 

[Pulvis]

If the Pope infallibly defines something contrary to something that has been infallibly taught for 2000 years, then the Gates of Hell have prevailed and the Catholic Church is not the Church Christ established.

Not really. Think St. Athanasius. The Church, or whatever is left of it, will still be the one true Church.

" But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?"
drbo.org St. Luke Ch. 18 vv 8

 

[FollowChrist34]

Not really. Think St. Athanasius. The Church, or whatever is left of it, will still be the one true Church.

" But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?"
drbo.org St. Luke Ch. 18 vv 8

Right. I think it was Ross Douthat (?) who said we are at the Jansenists vs. Jesuits point, not out to the extreme of St. Athanasius, not yet there. (in terms of the seriousness of the crisis) I think we can upgrade to St. Athanasius territory now. Though I think this is pooh-poohed in polite company. Lacking mercy, obsessing on dogma etc etc etc

 

[Ender]

However one understands AL, and whichever group of bishops one agrees with, one point is certain: different bishops are presenting different - and contrary - interpretations of doctrines central to the faith.*“only a blind man could deny there’s great confusion, uncertainty and insecurity in the Church… In recent months, on some very fundamental questions regarding the sacraments, such as marriage, confession and the Eucharist, and the Christian life in general, some bishops have said A, and others the contrary of A,” *(Cardinal Caffarra)
This is not a situation that can be resolved by compromise: one side is right and the other is wrong, and it remains to be seen how this will play out, but there really is no possibility that both interpretations can stand together.

Ender