Malta: Priests ‘confused’ over bishops’ new guidelines

[Blue_Horizon]

The problem is that if you make the issue one of behaving in a way acceptable to God it is hardly sensible to suggest that what is acceptable to him in Malta would be unacceptable to him in England.
True, 915 discusses the obligation of the person who ministers communion, not of the one who receives it. Nor have I suggested otherwise.
I guess that depends on how many times you misread my comment. Nor is it solely the bishop’s problem. As I said, the responsibility for not distributing communion to someone who is publicly unworthy lies with the individual actually administering communion.
No, 915 is not triggered by the concern for scandal. Yes, scandal is a concern, but that is not what 915 is really about. Now you’re just making this stuff up.
This is more invention. It was never the pope’s decision alone any more than it was ever the bishop’s alone. It is now as it has always been: the responsibility of the minister. It is a responsibility from which not even a pope can absolve the minister. Yes, the bishop can, and frequently indicate what does or does not trigger the canon, but in the end the responsibility lies with the minister.
I’m not arguing with the pope, I’m arguing with you, and you’ve said nothing that suggests a familiarity with the topic.
I think I’ve figured out why we seem to be having parallel conversations here: to me this is a question of right and wrong, and that’s not part of your calculation. You don’t argue whether it’s right or wrong in any absolute sense, only whether it is acceptable to this or that bishop.
This is true. The actual question being debated, however, is whether dispensation for the divorced and remarried to receive communion is actually a “valid leniency”.

Ender

You have clearly implied if not out rightly stated the woman is objectively receiving Communion unworthily and without excuse even if she claims to act from a certain conscience because the different choices in different countries somehow betrays mere personal choice rather than a conscience decision.

Do advise where I may understand you incorrectly?

 

[Ender]

And still you turn this into a war where someone must be right and someone must be wrong, someone is the goody, someone is the baddy, someone must be in error and if they are I don’t need to listen…and it cannot be you

It’s a matter of believing that truth exists and can be known. If there is no truth then no one can be right or wrong, but if truth actually exists then clearly if two people disagree at least one of them must in fact be mistaken. This is one source of our disagreement: I believe this is a matter of right and wrong, not a matter of opinion.

Ender

 

[Ender]

You have clearly implied if not out rightly stated the woman is objectively receiving Communion unworthily and without excuse even if she claims to act from a certain conscience because the different choices in different countries somehow betrays mere personal choice rather than a conscience decision.

Do advise where I may understand you incorrectly?

I have neither said nor implied anything at all about the woman since nothing is known about what she intends to do. You stated what you would do and I responded to that.

As for doing different things in different places, yes, I did reject that approach. How can something be right over here but wrong over there? The woman is either justified in receiving or she isn’t, but justification is not determined by location.

Ender

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I have neither said nor implied anything at all about the woman since nothing is known about what she intends to do. You stated what you would do and I responded to that.

As for doing different things in different places, yes, I did reject that approach. How can something be right over here but wrong over there? The woman is either justified in receiving or she isn’t, but justification is not determined by location.

Ender

Well “… hardly sensible to suggest that what is acceptable to him in Malta would be unacceptable to him in England.”

Sounds pretty clear to all of us here that you say the woman is behaving unacceptably before God re her Communion decisions:shrug:

Yet she is acting within both Canons 915 and 916 which apply to irregulars and whether they may come forward to receive. If she obeys Church authority why MUST she be behaving unacceptably before God?

Canon 915 re “gravity” is obviously applied differently by the local ordinary in Malta vis a vis England.

Therefore if there is any decision making unacceptable to God I suggest it is the Ordinary.

Why would any sane person believe otherwise?
Yet you do.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I have neither said nor implied anything at all about the woman since nothing is known about what she intends to do.

And if there was any doubt that you would see it as unacceptable before God if anyone in her position did receive in Malta but not in England…

Quote: BH
If you feel your local ordinary in canon 915 gives you freedom’s that your certain conscience denies you by all means don’t receive…but you have absolutely no grounds for gain-saying other lay persons who don’t share such certainty.

If we no longer care whether communion is being received improperly…

Pretty clear you think such a person MUST be receiving unworthily…somehow because she does something in Malta she doesn’t do in England?

Then you accuse such a person of giving scandal in Malta therefore it MUST be unacceptable to God that she does this.

Yet her local Ordinary disagrees with Pope Ender.
In this situation who do you think she must obey, Pope Ender (and a few who think like him) or her local Ordinary?
Which one do you think God wants her to take counsel from?

 

[Blue_Horizon]

If we no longer care whether communion is being received improperly** it can only be **

You haven’t answered this one…

Can you really be so illogical as not to admit even the logical **possibility **that it is **your **belief on these matters that is not what you thought it was?

Please tell me you are humble enough to accept this possibility even if you are “certain” it isn’t the case in practice.

 

[Ender]

You haven’t answered this one…

Can you really be so illogical as not to admit even the logical **possibility **that it is **your **belief on these matters that is not what you thought it was?

Please tell me you are humble enough to accept this possibility even if you are “certain” it isn’t the case in practice.

Your question isn’t clear. What “matters” are you referring to? If you’re suggesting that my arguments might be faulty, then yes, I accept that possibility. On the other hand it seems less and less likely in light of the fact that there hasn’t been an effective rebuttal to them. If you want me to doubt myself you need to provide a compelling reason to do so.

Ender

 

[dbreit2000]

youtube.com/watch?v=k20q_BwtWpM

My brother sent me this link, which I found very disturbing. I’m not familiar with this site, and am wondering if anyone knows anything about this? My first thought was that this can’t be true, but I’m not sure. If there is any truth to these claims, I’m not sure how we are to defend the Faith!

I accidently posted this on a Thread about the Mass and got a snarky reply from someone there. I’m hoping someone here can shed some light on the subject? Thanks…

 

[Blue_Horizon]

youtube.com/watch?v=k20q_BwtWpM

My brother sent me this link, which I found very disturbing. I’m not familiar with this site, and am wondering if anyone knows anything about this? My first thought was that this can’t be true, but I’m not sure. If there is any truth to these claims, I’m not sure how we are to defend the Faith!

I accidently posted this on a Thread about the Mass and got a snarky reply from someone there. I’m hoping someone here can shed some light on the subject? Thanks…

Dbreit I believe the problem is that you need to post on CAF in an appropriate thread.
This thread is about Pope Francis and the Malta Bishops Guidelines.
Your post has nothing to do with that sorry.

Simply start your own new topic under Catholic News would seem the more apposite approach.

 

[JPUSC]

There’s confusion among the clergy. Yet I’ve seen well meaning laity condemned on this forum for their “weak faith” when admitting to being confused. In the end, the Church will sort it out. But it can be a painful process.

 

[dbreit2000]

Dbreit I believe the problem is that you need to post on CAF in an appropriate thread.
This thread is about Pope Francis and the Malta Bishops Guidelines.
Your post has nothing to do with that sorry.

Simply start your own new topic under Catholic News would seem the more apposite approach.

Well, actually, my post IS about Pope Francis and the Malta Bishop Guidelines. Apparently, you didn’t view the entire link…

 

[LightBound]

youtube.com/watch?v=k20q_BwtWpM

My brother sent me this link, which I found very disturbing. I’m not familiar with this site, and am wondering if anyone knows anything about this? My first thought was that this can’t be true, but I’m not sure. If there is any truth to these claims, I’m not sure how we are to defend the Faith!

I accidently posted this on a Thread about the Mass and got a snarky reply from someone there. I’m hoping someone here can shed some light on the subject? Thanks…

STOP!

Your post was pulled for putting up that video!! Quit posting it again. It’s against forum rules to put up that garbage when it denigrates the Holy Father. Quit falling for those conspiracy videos!

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Well, actually, my post IS about Pope Francis and the Malta Bishop Guidelines. Apparently, you didn’t view the entire link…

I beg to differ.
It’s 25 minutes of 2nd rate “news” from the highly disaffected and whinging Remnant website.
The written heading and introduction says nothing about the Maltese bishops and 6 mins into the video still no mention.

So I suggest no sane person is going to bother listening further to M Matt’s hogwash just to get to but a small part of his complaining that surely will not be worth listening to anyways.

 

[Ender]

Well, actually, my post IS about Pope Francis and the Malta Bishop Guidelines. Apparently, you didn’t view the entire link…

Why don’t you summarize the part that concerns you and we can discuss it, and try not to take Blue Horizon’s comments personally. He insults everybody equally.

Ender

 

[dbreit2000]

Thank you, Ender. My concern is that Pope Francis seems to be as devisive as Obama was by his off the cuff remarks. He continually makes comments that seem contrary to Catholic Doctrine which the liberal media picks up on and usually misconstrues to its base causing widespread confusion. The video link I posted seems to claim that the Vatican “homeys” are behind this and are orchestrating the Pope’s attempts to liberalize the Church’s Doctrines. I just don’t know what we should do to stop this…Do we just stand by and let it happen, or is there some recourse we should be taking??

 

[Ender]

Thank you, Ender. My concern is that Pope Francis seems to be as devisive as Obama was by his off the cuff remarks. He continually makes comments that seem contrary to Catholic Doctrine which the liberal media picks up on and usually misconstrues to its base causing widespread confusion. The video link I posted seems to claim that the Vatican “homeys” are behind this and are orchestrating the Pope’s attempts to liberalize the Church’s Doctrines. I just don’t know what we should do to stop this…Do we just stand by and let it happen, or is there some recourse we should be taking??

There is no doubt whatever that some of the things the pope has said, intentionally or not, have been construed in ways that are contrary to what Catholics have been taught. Whether or not Pope Francis has intended this, and whether or not there are forces within the Vatican who are “directing” this is not something we will ever know. Nor do I think it matters; the situation for those in the pews is the same either way. It is what it is and we have to deal with it.

As to what we can do I should think it would be very little. This is something the bishops have to deal with. We can offer them our prayers and vocal support, but beyond that…not much.

Ender

 

[Blue_Horizon]

There is no doubt whatever that some of the things the pope has said, intentionally or not, have been construed in ways that are contrary to what Catholics have been taught. Whether or not Pope Francis has intended this, and whether or not there are forces within the Vatican who are “directing” this is not something we will ever know. Nor do I think it matters; the situation for those in the pews is the same either way. It is what it is and we have to deal with it.

As to what we can do I should think it would be very little. This is something the bishops have to deal with. We can offer them our prayers and vocal support, but beyond that…not much.

Ender

Let’s pull our heads out of the sand.
It is more than clear Pope Francis allows for the possibility along a road of ongoing discernment that some active irregulars may be allowed access to Communion.
Let’s not pretend he’s a simple priest manipulated by others on this point.
He has in fact loaded the guns as it were and given his bishop deputies full licence to use them or not as they see fit at local level.

Let’s at least agree on that.

 

[Ender]

It is more than clear Pope Francis allows for the possibility along a road of ongoing discernment that some active irregulars may be allowed access to Communion.

If this is clear to you then you should be able to explain it to us. What does a “road of ongoing discernment” mean? That as long as we assert we intend to change our situation we are justified in receiving?

Ender

 

[Blue_Horizon]

If this is clear to you then you should be able to explain it to us. What does a “road of ongoing discernment” mean? That as long as we assert we intend to change our situation we are justified in receiving?

Ender

The Maltese Guidelines, fully endorsed by Pope Francis are crystal Ender.
PPs there are no longer absolutely prohibited from providing Communion to some active irregulars and this is endorsed by Pope Francis.
The exact implementation of the Accompanying process is irrelevant to the new possibility raised by his directive.

Or do you still deny the possibility exists for Maltese Priests to exercise?

 

[Ender]

The Maltese Guidelines, fully endorsed by Pope Francis are crystal Ender.

Let me repeat my questions:* What does a “road of ongoing discernment” mean? That as long as we assert we intend to change our situation we are justified in receiving? *
If the guidelines are so crystal clear why are you unable to explain the basis for them or to answer these straightforward questions? I’m only asking you to explain your own assertions.

The exact implementation of the Accompanying process is irrelevant to the new possibility raised by his directive.

What new directive? Chaput et al didn’t find anything new in AL. Why should we assume the Malta bishops got it right and Chaput got it wrong?

Or do you still deny the possibility exists for Maltese Priests to exercise?

Their workout regimen is of no concern to me.

Ender