Mandatory Reporting in Therapy with Imaginative Child

[UbiCaritas]

The specifics of mandatory reporting vary by state. In my state, you can be prosecuted if you don’t report any claim of abuse, no matter how unlikely it is.

IIRC, you’re a teacher, yes? Are you at least able to give the agency your impression as to the likelihood of the abuse? So, for example (and yes, I know this is egregious, but there you have it)…

Kid: Mrs. Allegra, the school janitor hit me.
You: Really? When was that? What happened?
Kid: Yesterday, between art and math class! Mr. Smith just walked up to me and hit me for no reason!

You, however, know that the kid is prone to exaggeration and making things up. Generally speaking, too, an abuser isn’t going to walk up to a child and hit him with several dozen witnesses. Perhaps there’s also the little detail that you know for a fact that Mr. Smith was fixing a lightbulb in your classroom before, during, and after that between-class period, so there’s no way this could have occurred.

Now, I understand that you still have to report it, but are you at least able to say something like “however, none of the other children or teachers in the hall saw this occur, and had it happened, they would have seen it?” Or even “However, Mr. Smith was in my classroom for the entire time this could have occurred, and therefore the story is doubtful at best?”

Basically, what I’m asking is if multiple teachers, caregivers, and so on have noticed that this kid makes up stories of abuse, is that taken into account when she tells the therapist and he correspondingly reports that “mommy beats me!” even though nothing of the sort is true?

 

[1990Domer]

From that behavior, the child sounds like a textbook sociopath. This child needs counseling and help. The risks associated with the child lying are far outweighed by the fact that this child needs help, badly.

If she does lie, there will be no physical evidence to support her claims, and they should be dismissed.

Please encourage the parents to get this child counseling.

Please be charitable in your post. Comments as such is why parents of children with invisible disabilities tend to withdraw from society. But thank you, as you gave me let another bullet point for treating children with invisible disabilities with compassion.

From this child’s behavior, I can name about 10 different diagnostic possibilities…sociopath is not one of them. The school should be doing a full functional behavioral analysis, as well as educational testing.

If possible, a full psychiatric evaluation may be done and covered by insurance. This should be done privately, if possible, as districts cut corners.

 

[1990Domer]

I’m curious as to how this would play out.

A close family member wants to seek therapy for her adopted daughter, who is 10. The daughter, although very intelligent, seems to be lacking in emotional maturity and social skills. The daughter can be violent (biting, scratching, etc). She’s also prone to making up and embellishing stories. Mom raised several biological children who are now successful adults but is having a lot of difficulty with this child. She tells me there’s a lot of arguing in their house and is hoping a therapist can provide them both with coping strategies and perspective.

I realize that most professionals (teachers, therapists, doctors, etc) are mandatory reporters, meaning if they suspect abuse they have to report it to the state. What happens if the child lies or exaggerates during therapy? Are mandatory reporters required to report all stories told to them during therapy?

Thanks for sharing any experiences you have.

Reporting of who? The parents for child abuse?

 

[1990Domer]

The child should see a psychiatrist. It may be of organic nature—and have a biological component – a psychiatrist will be able to help with this.

Certain mentally ill persons make up stories and it iis part of the illness. A good psychologist or psychiatrist would know this, and it would help with diagnoses and treatment.

Your friend should seek treatment mainly for the child’s wellbeing. The doctors will be able to have a record of the illness if the child tells a false story to a school official or someone else reports this.

A forensic psychologist or psychiatrist can probably quite easily figure this out.

 

[1990Domer]

It could be a lot of different things (maybe even multiple things). The violence, immaturity, and social stuff sounds autistic, but the lying doesn’t. (There are autistic children that are deceitful, but the stereotypical autistic child is painfully honest.)

A psych evaluation could also be a good thing.

However, did you know that if the autistic kid truly believes his/her reality, he/she does not see the action as lying. Know from experience. You know the saying…if you met one kid in the spectrum…

 

[1990Domer]

I know it can be several things, it’s just that that particular combination sounds like sociopathic behavior. I agree, a full psych evaluation is in order.

Um, for the sake of those with special needs kids, you are using a very toxic term. I would not want anyone calling my kid a sociopath!

 

[1990Domer]

It’s interesting, that’s not my impression at all, and perhaps I overemphasized the lying part.

The daughter behaves more like a preschooler than anything else. I have a four year old son and they seem so similar to me (except my son doesn’t usually hit unless he’s very very angry, and even then he’s getting better). She’s doesn’t seem to read social cues well, but part of the reason they are just now looking in to help is that some of the behavior seems normal for younger children. My preschooler son will something make up stories just for fun (We were told, for example, after the first day of preschool that the teacher wouldn’t let him in the classroom all day so he just played in the hallway. I was in the hallway that day for parent orientation and kept peaking in to watch him play with cars and read books in the classroom).

I was just curious how by-the-book mandatory reporters have to be; whether they’re allowed to try to size up the situation and judge whether the child may be embellishing or not giving the full story of if they are required by law to file a report with DCF is the child says something like, “Then mom hit me.”

Most decent teachers/guidance counsellors can suspect a developental disability and ask for the school to start an evaluation. It’s actually law to ID children with suspected disabilities.

 

[1990Domer]

IIRC, you’re a teacher, yes? Are you at least able to give the agency your impression as to the likelihood of the abuse? So, for example (and yes, I know this is egregious, but there you have it)…

Kid: Mrs. Allegra, the school janitor hit me.
You: Really? When was that? What happened?
Kid: Yesterday, between art and math class! Mr. Smith just walked up to me and hit me for no reason!

You, however, know that the kid is prone to exaggeration and making things up. Generally speaking, too, an abuser isn’t going to walk up to a child and hit him with several dozen witnesses. Perhaps there’s also the little detail that you know for a fact that Mr. Smith was fixing a lightbulb in your classroom before, during, and after that between-class period, so there’s no way this could have occurred.

Now, I understand that you still have to report it, but are you at least able to say something like “however, none of the other children or teachers in the hall saw this occur, and had it happened, they would have seen it?” Or even “However, Mr. Smith was in my classroom for the entire time this could have occurred, and therefore the story is doubtful at best?”

Basically, what I’m asking is if multiple teachers, caregivers, and so on have noticed that this kid makes up stories of abuse, is that taken into account when she tells the therapist and he correspondingly reports that “mommy beats me!” even though nothing of the sort is true?

Well, a kid in my son’s class used to do just that…tell outrageous stories of child abuse to my son. My son, being on the spectrum, believed him and reported it to a teacher.

The kid got the mental health treatments he needed.

 

[EasterJoy]

The girls sees a pediatrician regularly, and is also in a social skills group at school hosted by the school counselor and also receiving OT. Mom’s not avoiding all mandatory reporters, she just worried that in the context of seeking therapy to specifically address the arguing at home, that it could cause problems.

In this situation, I’d consult with the school counsellor about the issues I’m seeing at home, and keep those lines of communication wide open. It may be that the parents and the school can meet regularly to compare at-home and at-school issues, so they are on the same page when it comes to dealing with them. If the parents decide to take the child to an outside therapist or even a psychiatrist, the school counsellor might be able to help them prepare a report that would give that person a more thorough professional assessment of the situation. This assessment would be less likely to be taken with a grain of salt than feedback that came only from a layperson, even if that layperson is the child’s parent. On the other hand, the parents might be able to work with the school to form an overall strategy for dealing with these issues without any additional professional intervention beyond what the child is already receiving.

Short answer: Build on the professional intervention you already have in place, rather than having two separate professional interventions going on independently of each other. This is a case where the right and the left hand need to be up on what the other is doing!

 

[Allegra]

IIRC, you’re a teacher, yes? Are you at least able to give the agency your impression as to the likelihood of the abuse? So, for example (and yes, I know this is egregious, but there you have it)…

Kid: Mrs. Allegra, the school janitor hit me.
You: Really? When was that? What happened?
Kid: Yesterday, between art and math class! Mr. Smith just walked up to me and hit me for no reason!

You, however, know that the kid is prone to exaggeration and making things up. Generally speaking, too, an abuser isn’t going to walk up to a child and hit him with several dozen witnesses. Perhaps there’s also the little detail that you know for a fact that Mr. Smith was fixing a lightbulb in your classroom before, during, and after that between-class period, so there’s no way this could have occurred.

Now, I understand that you still have to report it, but are you at least able to say something like “however, none of the other children or teachers in the hall saw this occur, and had it happened, they would have seen it?” Or even “However, Mr. Smith was in my classroom for the entire time this could have occurred, and therefore the story is doubtful at best?”

Basically, what I’m asking is if multiple teachers, caregivers, and so on have noticed that this kid makes up stories of abuse, is that taken into account when she tells the therapist and he correspondingly reports that “mommy beats me!” even though nothing of the sort is true?

Both my state and my district require that ANY direct report of physical or sexual abuse has to be reported and documented, regardless of how unlikely it seems to be true. I know this seems to be extreme, but there are some good reasons for this rule. I work with elementary kids and while I may find it highly unlikely that “Mrs. Brown smacked a student yesterday”, given the fact that I know Mrs. Brown has been on maternity leave for a week, there is still a possibility that the child is confused and what they said they saw “yesterday” actually happened two Tuesdays ago. And it wasn’t Mrs. Brown, it was actually a parent in Mrs. Brown’s classroom, or Mrs. Brown’s sub, or the PE teacher who is male and looks absolutely nothing like Mrs. Brown. Or the kid was actually his by his own stepfather and knows that if he tells, he’ll get into trouble, but the incident was really stressful and he just wants to vent to someone about the fact that he’s being mistreated. So, that’s the reason for mandatory reporting. That being said, if you have to report, you are certainly able to point out that Mrs. Brown is on leave, that the student isn’t even in her class, and that the student has a history of making stuff up, if that’s the case.

 

[1990Domer]

In this situation, I’d consult with the school counsellor about the issues I’m seeing at home, and keep those lines of communication wide open. It may be that the parents and the school can meet regularly to compare at-home and at-school issues, so they are on the same page when it comes to dealing with them. If the parents decide to take the child to an outside therapist or even a psychiatrist, the school counsellor might be able to help them prepare a report that would give that person a more thorough professional assessment of the situation. This assessment would be less likely to be taken with a grain of salt than feedback that came only from a layperson, even if that layperson is the child’s parent. On the other hand, the parents might be able to work with the school to form an overall strategy for dealing with these issues without any additional professional intervention beyond what the child is already receiving.

Short answer: Build on the professional intervention you already have in place, rather than having two separate professional interventions going on independently of each other. This is a case where the right and the left hand need to be up on what the other is doing!

This is true, but often doctors have more pull with demanding therapies from schools, especially in cheapskate districts like mine. Our district did not have my kid’s best interest in mind. Outsiders forced their hand.

IMHO, she is not getting anywhere near the therapies she should be. The school is getting off cheap.

 

[Allegra]

Um, for the sake of those with special needs kids, you are using a very toxic term. I would not want anyone calling my kid a sociopath!

I don’t think that the behavior in the OP is accurately described as that of a sociopath, however, there are some children that DO exhibit sociopathic behavior and it isn’t “toxic” to say so. It is really unusual for a child to be diagnosed as a sociopath, but most adults that are diagnosed as such exhibited sociopathic behavior as a child.

 

[1990Domer]

I don’t think that the behavior in the OP is accurately described as that of a sociopath, however, there are some children that DO exhibit sociopathic behavior and it isn’t “toxic” to say so. It is really unusual for a child to be diagnosed as a sociopath, but most adults that are diagnosed as such exhibited sociopathic behavior as a child.

I disagree, because it is hurtful to the child, God-forbid they overhear, and it uncompassionate to the parents, who are often already beating themselves up over their child’s behavior (and often self-loathing).

If an adult is diagnosed with that disability and it traces back to childhood, fine. But statistically speaking, there are a whole lot more developmental disabilities and nobody should pass judgement on a parent or child. Rather, do what the Pope suggested. Treat everyone with love and dignity and as a person made in the image of God.

That is the crux of my talk this weekend because controversial words like sociopath heard by a kid is ripe fodder for bullying. There is too much of it, and people need to be aware the damage it is causing us as a society. Let’s be uplifting.

 

[EasterJoy]

This is true, but often doctors have more pull with demanding therapies from schools, especially in cheapskate districts like mine. Our district did not have my kid’s best interest in mind. Outsiders forced their hand.

IMHO, she is not getting anywhere near the therapies she should be. The school is getting off cheap.

This could be true. There are also counsellors who know how the system works who will put a bug in the parents’ ear and say, “pssst. I ‘can’t tell you this,’ but if you get a psychiatrist to order such-and-so, then we’ll ‘have to’ provide that.” The people working for the district are sometimes instructed not to diagnose more than the district has the resources to address, because the district has an unfunded mandate to address every issue, regardless of the district’s funding situation.

Having said that, the more expensive and time-consuming option is not always the most effective option. This student might benefit from a more low-key approach.

 

[mommy_k]

The main symptom of a sociopath is that they have no conscience. They are incapable of empathy and compassion.

Lying, making up stories and having arguments does not make a person a sociopath–

In children, it sometimes presents itself as ODD–oppositional defiant disorder-or cd conduct disorder and cruelty to animals is a major sign. This is a severe disorder, not arguments or defiance. The child gets joy (or something like joy) from hurting others–severely. Think of a child putting an animal in a microwave and enjoying this…this is a sociopath.

The op’s friend will never know the correct diagnosis, severity of the problem and treatment until the child is seen by a psychiatrist or psychologist-

Psych lesson over…sorry for hijacking.

 

[EasterJoy]

The main symptom of a sociopath is that they have no conscience. They are incapable of empathy and compassion.

Lying, making up stories and having arguments does not make a person a sociopath–

In children, it sometimes presents itself as ODD–oppositional defiant disorder-or cd conduct disorder and cruelty to animals is a major sign. This is a severe disorder, not arguments or defiance. The child gets joy (or something like joy) from hurting others–severely. Think of a child putting an animal in a microwave and enjoying this…this is a sociopath.

The op’s friend will never know the correct diagnosis, severity of the problem and treatment until the child is seen by a psychiatrist or psychologist-

Psych lesson over…sorry for hijacking.

Kids who are secretly being abused also do things like this. A child who has never shown tendencies towards cruelty will sometimes exhibit these after the child has been a victim of abuse that the child is concealing. Actually, the same goes with lying and all sorts of other behaviors.

If the child has always had these problems and they are getting worse that is a different matter than if the child has never shown these tendencies and then they seem to crop up rather suddenly. The main thing is that these are very serious symptoms and outside the norm for the age of the child the OP is talking about. The symptoms do need to be addressed until no stone has been left unturned. The parents are quite right about that.

As for the original concern posed by the OP, the child’s tendency to lie is well-known to professionals at the school. Why the child lies? That is unclear. I would definitely get records and professional notes from the school and preferably a letter sent directly from the professionals at the school to the outside professional. Yes, the child might lie about abuse and cause trouble, but that is already a concern. This child is something of a ticking time bomb in that respect.

I would consider this child particularly vulnerable to sexual abuse and anyone left alone with the child to be vulnerable to accusations of abuse, as well. She has already made false accusations about physical abuse–would she think she’ll be believed if she were actually to suffer sexual abuse and tell about that? Wouldn’t a sexual abuser know to tell her she won’t be believed, and con her that way? On the other hand, what would stop her from making false accusations about anyone left without an alibi? I’d be very strict about sticking with the boundaries they are teaching now to prevent the sexual abuse of children with this child at all times, or at least as often as humanly possible. Don’t leave anybody alone with this child unsupervised, if you don’t have to. Always have two people around. If someone has to be around her alone, get a surveillance camera to protect both her and the person left alone with her.

 

[Allegra]

I disagree, because it is hurtful to the child, God-forbid they overhear, and it uncompassionate to the parents, who are often already beating themselves up over their child’s behavior (and often self-loathing).

If an adult is diagnosed with that disability and it traces back to childhood, fine. But statistically speaking, there are a whole lot more developmental disabilities and nobody should pass judgement on a parent or child. Rather, do what the Pope suggested. Treat everyone with love and dignity and as a person made in the image of God.

That is the crux of my talk this weekend because controversial words like sociopath heard by a kid is ripe fodder for bullying. There is too much of it, and people need to be aware the damage it is causing us as a society. Let’s be uplifting.

We might be coming at this from different angles, but I’m assuming that the person making the comment is someone invested in the child, such as a therapist, teacher, parents, or close relative, and they are describing the child’s behavior with the purpose of identifying the problem and fixing it, not simply complaining about it. Of course, calling someone a sociopath because you don’t care for how they act is unhelpful, especially if its a gross exaggeration, in which case it’s also insulting. However, stating that you observe sociopathic or antisocial behavior isn’t really the same thing. Also, one should be careful to avoid having such conversations within earshot of nosy and uninvested parties.

 

[1990Domer]

This could be true. There are also counsellors who know how the system works who will put a bug in the parents’ ear and say, “pssst. I ‘can’t tell you this,’ but if you get a psychiatrist to order such-and-so, then we’ll ‘have to’ provide that.” The people working for the district are sometimes instructed not to diagnose more than the district has the resources to address, because the district has an unfunded mandate to address every issue, regardless of the district’s funding situation.

Having said that, the more expensive and time-consuming option is not always the most effective option. This student might benefit from a more low-key approach.

This is all true. Also, I must add that I’m coming from 10 years of being on the journey, and we certainly had to pace things out for all our sanity.

 

[1990Domer]

The main symptom of a sociopath is that they have no conscience. They are incapable of empathy and compassion.

Lying, making up stories and having arguments does not make a person a sociopath–

In children, it sometimes presents itself as ODD–oppositional defiant disorder-or cd conduct disorder and cruelty to animals is a major sign. This is a severe disorder, not arguments or defiance. The child gets joy (or something like joy) from hurting others–severely. Think of a child putting an animal in a microwave and enjoying this…this is a sociopath.

The op’s friend will never know the correct diagnosis, severity of the problem and treatment until the child is seen by a psychiatrist or psychologist-

Psych lesson over…sorry for hijacking.

I quite tend to agree. I wish schools were altruistic, but their budgets are fixed with little wiggle room.