"mandatory" sacramental prep classes

[Dan_Daly]

I didn’t mean to put you on the defensive with my question. Just trying to understand where you were coming from a little bit better. Sorry if I upset you in some way. I never intended to give the opinion that parents don’t have the right to provide religious instruction for their children at home. Just trying to offer you some support with some similar situations as yours.

Parents should always have educational options, be it for the religious education or their primary education or a combination of both. We homeschool (cyber school) but choose our CCD program for religious education.

PatriceA,

No offense taken. I’m sorry if my reply sounded like I had taken some.

Pax and God bless.

 

[Dan_Daly]

The priest has asked the parishioners to send their children to religious education classes. He is not asking the parents to do something sinful. IMO, to disobey the priest would be wrong.

When some families choose not to obey the priest, this sends the message to their children, and also to the “less-devout” families in the parish, that it’s OK to disobey the priest sometimes.

Does the Church give us the “right” to pick and choose which mandates of our priests that we will obey and which we will disobey?

CCD isn’t in the same category as a “church picnic” or a “Bible study.” We are free to attend or not attend these events. The priest does not ask us to attend. He merely allows these activities to commence, and makes it clear that we are invited to attend if we wish.

But your priest has asked that all children attend CCD.

It is clear that he has some motive for asking that all families send their children to CCD. It would be good to know what that motive is, but he is certainly not obligated to share this with all the parents.

I’m guessing that one of his motives is to create an atmosphere of humility and obedience in the parish, and teach children that they must obey their Church. He is making a reasonable request in asking all children to attend CCD.

If the Church has said that Parishes may not mandate such classes on families (as it has), supporting a mandate which violates Church teaching seems an odd way to teach obedience to the Church.

If the teaching at CCD is lacking in some way, it will not hurt the children to sit there anyway and learn to deal with less-than-stellar teaching and materials. In various community music venues, I’ve worked with many homeschooled children, and one of the “problems” that we have is that they are often easily-bored and in need of constant stimulation and attention, and sometimes, they are even rude and very willing to voice their objections to the teacher or his/her material.** It would be good for homeschooled children to learn that not all situations are interesting or relevant, and that they must often learn to simply sit quietly and try their best to pay attention and get the most out of a dull setting.**

Non-interesting, irrelevant, and dull? Sounds like a great class to send your kid to. The content of the class isn’t our objection (to the extend we are aware of the content), but if it was as you describe, sending a kid there could very well have the effect of making their faith seem…non-interesting, irrelevant, and dull.

Pax and God Bless.

 

[Cat]

Non-interesting, irrelevant, and dull? Sounds like a great class to send your kid to. The content of the class isn’t our objection (to the extend we are aware of the content), but if it was as you describe, sending a kid there could very well have the effect of making their faith seem…non-interesting, irrelevant, and dull.

Pax and God Bless.

I think that it’s very important for children (and adults) to learn from an early age that much of life is non-interesting, irrelevant, and dull, and that learning about their faith doesn’t always involve puppets, songs and dances, and a funny teacher.

When people don’t learn how to handle boring situations, they see nothing valuable in anything that isn’t highly entertaining.

There are Christians who believe that “quiet” is equivalent to “spiritually dead,” and “slow” is equivalent to “non-spiritual.” There are many Christians who are afraid of silence and of being alone. There are many people in this world who have withdrawal symptoms if they don’t have their iPods.

It is important to teach children how to graciously handle a non-interesting, irrelevant, and dull situation. It upsets me when school-aged children let the world know by their body language, facial expressions, and demeanor how much pain and suffering they are enduring at the hands of the most uninteresting, irrevelant, and dull teacher or activity in the entire history of the universe. IMO, such children should be taught to look for things to learn and appreciate in all situations, not just the ones that please them. And they should learn that their enjoyment of a situation doesn’t depend on the teacher and his/her techniques, but on their own attitude.

 

[Cat]

Keep in mind that pastors are also dealing with parents who simply want to get their kids sacramental punch card hole punched for the Sacraments of Initiation with as little work as possible. This is why some diocese and some parishes have these types of policies. If they don’t, the fear is that parents will do the minimum to get by and the kid will never darken the door of a catechetical classroom again (and likely never consistently go to Mass either).

I’m sure many pastors have an aversion to those who come to them with an “I-know-more-about-passing-on-the-Catholic-faith-than-you-do” attitude.

1ke posted the relevant canons. It isn’t 100% clear cut. Many pastors make the argument that mandating participation in the catechetical program is how they fulfill their canonical duty to ensure the children are properly prepared. I think you can certainly make a case for homeschooling, but I would be careful about pushing too hard too fast. I would discuss my feelings and desires with him in the most non-confrontational way possible.

I think this post probably nailed it on the head.

Nowadays, every parent wants an exception made for their children in almost every situation, including religious education.

And the priest is exasperated with all the parents who have “good reasons” why their child should be allowed to learn the faith at home, and he’s probably at the point where he is saying, “NO! No more exceptions!”

And he’s probably trying to be absolutely inflexible because if he makes an exception for one child, then he will have to make exceptions for many children, and eventually no one will be coming to CCD except a few children, and then it won’t be worth the cost of the program.

Here’s an idea–if anyone wants your child learning the Catholic faith from you, then why not volunteer to teach the CCD class? That way, all the children will have the benefit of your good, orthodox teaching. You will be doing two good works–bringing up your own children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, and helping other children to learn their faith, too!

 

[maryjk]

Here’s an idea–if anyone wants your child learning the Catholic faith from you, then why not volunteer to teach the CCD class? That way, all the children will have the benefit of your good, orthodox teaching. You will be doing two good works–bringing up your own children in the fear and admonition of the Lord, and helping other children to learn their faith, too!

That worked for me for many years. Off course I have an only child. What do parents do when they have more than one? One parent can’t teach more than one class. I know there were a number of students being Confirmed that had a brother or sister making their 1st Communion.

In addition, I was told that they already had teachers for Confirmation. So I volunteered to go on the retreat, but I am guessing they wanted more “hip” parents since somehow my form got misplaced and they filled the position with another parent.

What is a parent to do? I admitted to my son that the program stunk. And since we home schooled, we would be doing a solid program at home. He had to go and sit in the classroom, getting as much out of it as he could. We then hit the basics, then went deeper. I am satisfied he had the knowledge he needed by the time Confirmation rolled around.

 

[Corki]

That worked for me for many years. Off course I have an only child. What do parents do when they have more than one? One parent can’t teach more than one class. I know there were a number of students being Confirmed that had a brother or sister making their 1st Communion.

In addition, I was told that they already had teachers for Confirmation. So I volunteered to go on the retreat, but I am guessing they wanted more “hip” parents since somehow my form got misplaced and they filled the position with another parent.

Well, you tried. I have taught CCE for over a decade, including both the FHC class and the Confirmation class. But only in one year did I have one of my children in class. The DRE prefers it if teachers don’t have their own kids in class. Interestingly, I would have had my oldest in Confirmation class this year but got “reassigned”.

What is a parent to do? I admitted to my son that the program stunk. And since we home schooled, we would be doing a solid program at home. He had to go and sit in the classroom, getting as much out of it as he could. We then hit the basics, then went deeper. I am satisfied he had the knowledge he needed by the time Confirmation rolled around

I feel the same way. My kids go to a very good Catholic school which has an excellent theology program. They don’t need me to tell them the CCE program stinks (but that doesn’t stop me).

When they were in FHC class, the emphasis was mostly on learning their prayers, the seven Sacraments, etc. Since my kids knew all that, they got to be teacher’s helpers and work with the other kids to help them learn their prayers. They didn’t learn anything new but it wasn’t a horrible experience.

Confirmation is a little more of a concern. Since I have taught the class, I am very familiar with the material. It would be very easy for a teacher to take it off track. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, we had one mom who went every week to her son’s Confirmation class specifically to point out the errors and unteach them to her son. My new “assignment” will keep me from being able to do that for my own child. But he will put in his time and get his ticket punched.

 

[SanAgustin]

That worked for me for many years. Off course I have an only child. What do parents do when they have more than one? One parent can’t teach more than one class. I know there were a number of students being Confirmed that had a brother or sister making their 1st Communion.

In addition, I was told that they already had teachers for Confirmation. So I volunteered to go on the retreat, but I am guessing they wanted more “hip” parents since somehow my form got misplaced and they filled the position with another parent.

What is a parent to do? I admitted to my son that the program stunk. And since we home schooled, we would be doing a solid program at home. He had to go and sit in the classroom, getting as much out of it as he could. We then hit the basics, then went deeper. I am satisfied he had the knowledge he needed by the time Confirmation rolled around.

My wife and I just started teaching 5th grade CCD. Our oldest is in the class, and she’s very excited about this (although I warned her that, being in my class, I will make a very conscious effort to not show favoritism).

Our 2nd grader is in another class, and she’s doing first communion prep. The need was for teachers in the 5th grade and this is our first year (after last doing this when we were in college!) so we decided to do it together. Then we have our pre-K daughter, she’ll stay with us on the 5th grade class (still trying to figure that one out).

So it’s doable, well … we’ll see how it works

My idea is that next year my wife and I may have to split and teach different classes, although to be quite honest I rather do these classes together with her, we make a great team!

 

[Dan_Daly]

I think that it’s very important for children (and adults) to learn from an early age that much of life is non-interesting, irrelevant, and dull, and that learning about their faith doesn’t always involve puppets, songs and dances, and a funny teacher.

When people don’t learn how to handle boring situations, they see nothing valuable in anything that isn’t highly entertaining.

There are Christians who believe that “quiet” is equivalent to “spiritually dead,” and “slow” is equivalent to “non-spiritual.” There are many Christians who are afraid of silence and of being alone. There are many people in this world who have withdrawal symptoms if they don’t have their iPods.

Ok, we at least somewhat agree. However I don’t equate “quite and slow” with “non-interesting, irrelevant and dull”.

I do fully agree that most members of our society have incredibly short attention spans. My experience with homeschooled children has been that in general they have much better ones than instituionally schooled children. Most of the Catholic homeschooled children I know, including my own, don’t watch TV, own an ipod or cellphone, or play video games. This helps a great deal in the development of attention span and appreciation for just how interesting things can be that are quiet and slow.

The argument “well if you don’t like it, just teach CCD yourself” has some merit but largely misses the point. As a parent God made me the primary instructor of MY children. Not the other children in the parish. They would be best served if THEIR parents took up their responsibility and duty to educate them. What if their parents don’t know the faith very well? Well they should learn- for their own benefit and their childrens’. There are fundamental problems with instituional schooling that won’t go away simply because I become the institutional teacher. Education, spiritual or otherwise, is not a one size fits all proposition. Each child is an unique individual created in the image and likeness of God, with different talents, strengths, and weaknesses. The flexibility homeschooling provides allows each set of parents- the people who know the talents, strengths and weaknesses of their children best- to instruct them in the best way possible.

Pax.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Nowadays, every parent wants an exception made for their children in almost every situation, including religious education.

And the priest is exasperated with all the parents who have “good reasons” why their child should be allowed to learn the faith at home, and he’s probably at the point where he is saying, “NO! No more exceptions!”

And he’s probably trying to be absolutely inflexible because if he makes an exception for one child, then he will have to make exceptions for many children, and eventually no one will be coming to CCD except a few children, and then it won’t be worth the cost of the program.

The problem is that the Priest has no right to decide who does or doesn’t get an “exception”, because he doesn’t have the right to violate canon law. Parents are the primary educators of their children. Parents have the right to catechize their children. Children may not be denied the sacraments because they don’t go to special programs. The best “good reason” for a parent to catechize their child is…it’s the parent’s job.

The priest does indeed have a role. He needs to make sure that the instruction happened. That is different than providing the instruction. He can interview children and determine if they are prepared for the sacrament. If they are unprepared, they need to prepare before receiving the sacrament. If parents want to “homeschool” their children for the sacraments, and not actually provide any instruction, then it’s up to the priest to do his duty and if he finds the child is not ready, he needs to tell them they are not ready.

Pax

 

[Cristiano]

…The argument “well if you don’t like it, just teach CCD yourself” has some merit but largely misses the point. As a parent God made me the primary instructor of MY children. Not the other children in the parish…

I think that you might underplay of what our obligations are as Christians. You are not supposed to be the primary instructor of other people children but you still have a moral obligation to do your best to ensure that they are educated in the faith. The economy of salvation is not an individual thing like some protestants state and not it is not even limited to the family level. We are not allowed to say it is not my family and thus I am not responsible for them. If you look at the spiritual works of mercy you will see that it says that we have to instruct the ignorant, to counsel the doubtful, to admonish sinners; however, you will not see anywhere that it says in my family only. Of course we cannot do everything but we still have to do our best.

 

[Cristiano]

The problem is that the Priest has no right to decide who does or doesn’t get an “exception”, because he doesn’t have the right to violate canon law. Parents are the primary educators of their children. Parents have the right to catechize their children. Children may not be denied the sacraments because they don’t go to special programs. The best “good reason” for a parent to catechize their child is…it’s the parent’s job.

The priest does indeed have a role. He needs to make sure that the instruction happened. That is different than providing the instruction. He can interview children and determine if they are prepared for the sacrament. If they are unprepared, they need to prepare before receiving the sacrament. If parents want to “homeschool” their children for the sacraments, and not actually provide any instruction, then it’s up to the priest to do his duty and if he finds the child is not ready, he needs to tell them they are not ready.

Pax

I still think that you look at things only in terms of your rights but you choose to ignore what your obligations are. I also think that you are making the untrue statement that one type of education excludes the other.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I think that you might underplay of what our obligations are as Christians. You are not supposed to be the primary instructor of other people children but you still have a moral obligation to do your best to ensure that they are educated in the faith. The economy of salvation is not an individual thing like some protestants state and not it is not even limited to the family level. We are not allowed to say it is not my family and thus I am not responsible for them. If you look at the spiritual works of mercy you will see that it says that we have to instruct the ignorant, to counsel the doubtful, to admonish sinners; however, you will not see anywhere that it says in my family only. Of course we cannot do everything but we still have to do our best.

You raise a valid concern.

I agree, that our obligations start in the family but don’t end there. We do have obligations to be Christ to all people.

We simply disagree on the details of how to do so. If by teaching CCD you are encouraging other parents to ignore their obligations to their own children, then I don’t think you are ministering to them properly. Homeschooling your children, doesn’t mean you have zero interaction with other families either. There are other opportunities to help others grow in their faith, beyond a formal classroom setting.

Pax and God bless.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I still think that you look at things only in terms of your rights but you choose to ignore what your obligations are. I also think that you are making the untrue statement that one type of education excludes the other.

Do a priest and a parishoner both have an obligation to obey canon law?

 

[puzzleannie]

again if you come to me as parents and want to bypass what the diocese has set down, I will simply refer you to the pastor. I have never heard of a parent being told their child cannot receive sacraments because they did not attend a class, indeed, particular law forbids such a step, and any pastor who does delay (never deny) sacraments has to give his reason to them in writing.

In many dioceses parents have the major burden of the preparation, and are simply handed a book, sometimes with a short teaching session on how to use it, so there is nothing unique here.

I only wish to point out as I have said so many times in this context, specifically as it relates to Confirmation (about the only bone of contention that arises here) that one of the most valuable lessons we can learn ourselves, and pass on to our children, is cheerful prompt obedience to the Church, in the person of the bishop and those he commissions to help carry out his office, including pastors. In fact I can think of no component of “sacramental prep” that has more lasting spiritual value. If one is able to consider these questions from that point of view, the spiritual benefit is enormous.

 

[Cristiano]

Do a priest and a parishoner both have an obligation to obey canon law?

Yes! I also think that it is not a good idea to break Canon Law to see if the pastor is going to break it too. I also think that a parishoner should discuss the topic with the priest, then if he still feels wronged to escalate it to the Bishop, and finally to escalate it to the appropriate venue in the Vatican. A parishoner should not make himself the interpreter of Canon Law.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Yes! I also think that it is not a good idea to break Canon Law to see if the pastor is going to break it too. I also think that a parishoner should discuss the topic with the priest, then if he still feels wronged to escalate it to the Bishop, and finally to escalate it to the appropriate venue in the Vatican. A parishoner should not make himself the interpreter of Canon Law.

How would a parent be breaking canon law by not sending their child to CCD?

Where is the canon law that says CCD is required?

Pax and God Bless.

 

[maryjk]

again if you come to me as parents and want to bypass what the diocese has set down, I will simply refer you to the pastor. I have never heard of a parent being told their child cannot receive sacraments because they did not attend a class, indeed, particular law forbids such a step, and any pastor who does delay (never deny) sacraments has to give his reason to them in writing.

We have had this conversation before. I wish I knew then what I know now. I would have put my foot down.

In many dioceses parents have the major burden of the preparation, and are simply handed a book, sometimes with a short teaching session on how to use it, so there is nothing unique here.

I only wish to point out as I have said so many times in this context, specifically as it relates to Confirmation (about the only bone of contention that arises here) that one of the most valuable lessons we can learn ourselves, and pass on to our children, is cheerful prompt obedience to the Church, in the person of the bishop and those he commissions to help carry out his office, including pastors. In fact I can think of no component of “sacramental prep” that has more lasting spiritual value. If one is able to consider these questions from that point of view, the spiritual benefit is enormous.

I agree…to a point. What about when that obedience leads to sin or the near occasion of sin? As it did when I saw a picture of my son holding a young lady in his arms?.

Or when that obedience allows falsehoods about the faith to be taught? Our CCD director told the group of Confirmation students that Confirmation makes the 1st indelible mark on their soul. So I asked, what about Baptism? It was explained to me that some of the children were baptized in a Protestant churches and she wasn’t sure if that type of baptism made an indelible mark.

I can’t count how many things I needed to explain to my son, because what was taught was wrong. (the snake in Genesis was a serpent and there could be a case made that Eve was afraid of what the serpent would do to her if she didn’t eat the apple.:banghead::banghead

 

[Cristiano]

How would a parent be breaking canon law by not sending their child to CCD?

Where is the canon law that says CCD is required?

Pax and God Bless.

If you want to make yourself the interpreter of Canon Law it is your choice, you have free will.

 

[Dan_Daly]

If you want to make yourself the interpreter of Canon Law it is your choice, you have free will.

You said:

Yes! I also think that it is not a good idea to break Canon Law to see if the pastor is going to break it too.

So you have determined that something, I’m assuming not sending your kid to CCD based on the conversation, would be an example of a parent breaking the canon law.

I’m simply asking why you said that. You tell me that I have no right to interpret canon law. How did you arrive at your conclusion that a parent would be breaking it- if you did not interpret it yourself?

So are you saying that it would be a violation of the canon law for a parent not to send their child to CCD?

Or are you saying it is a violation of canon law not to do whatever it is that your pastor requests of you, even if the request is a violation of your rights?

Pax and God Bless.

 

[jmcrae]

Or are you saying it is a violation of canon law not to do whatever it is that your pastor requests of you, even if the request is a violation of your rights?

How is it a “violation of your rights” to send your child for instructions in the faith that hopefully he is going to have for all of eternity?

Nobody doubts that children need to receive 12 years of public school and 4-6 years of college on top of that, to receive the instruction they need in the skills they will use for the 40 or so years of their career here on this earth.

Why is it so burdensome to attend classes for a couple of years to prepare for the things of eternity?