"mandatory" sacramental prep classes

[Cristiano]

You said:

So you have determined that something, I’m assuming not sending your kid to CCD based on the conversation, would be an example of a parent breaking the canon law.

I’m simply asking why you said that. You tell me that I have no right to interpret canon law. How did you arrive at your conclusion that a parent would be breaking it- if you did not interpret it yourself?

So are you saying that it would be a violation of the canon law for a parent not to send their child to CCD?

Or are you saying it is a violation of canon law not to do whatever it is that your pastor requests of you, even if the request is a violation of your rights?

Pax and God Bless.

I think that you just want to be right and that is it! I also have the impression that you made your decision and you just want someone to validate your choice. That does not leave any room for any useful discussion.

I did no say that not sending your children to CCD is breaking the CCL because I am no canon layer, it could be but I do not know. I simply said that it is not a good idea to break a law just to see if the pastor is going to break it too. This is simply common sense.

I can read the CCL but that does not make me a canon lawyer. I am smart enough to understand that an article of law does not exist by itself but it always part of a more general canon, and so I do not interpret canon law to make decisions that appear to go against the wishes of my pastor. I would refer to a higher authority.

If you just go over the CCL you will see the following article:

Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.

§2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires.

Where does your case stand respect to this one? I do not know, again I would just use common sense and talk to the pastor and then if I were not satisfied I would escalate it and then at one point I would just obey.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I think that you just want to be right and that is it! I also have the impression that you made your decision and you just want someone to validate your choice. That does not leave any room for any useful discussion.

I did no say that not sending your children to CCD is breaking the CCL because I am no canon layer, it could be but I do not know. I simply said that it is not a good idea to break a law just to see if the pastor is going to break it too. This is simply common sense.

Of course I want to be right! Don’t you? What’s the alternative- wanting to be wrong?

That doesn’t mean I am not ready and willing to consider that I am wrong on something, and changing to adopt the correct position- because I want to be right.

That is the case here. I’m not trying to argue with you for the sake of argument I’m trying to learn from you.

I simply said that it is not a good idea to break a law just to see if the pastor is going to break it too.

Your statement implies that you see someone breaking a law. Which law? It’s a simple question.

Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut on the subject. I’m in the process of writing a letter to my pastor, explaining my position, and will be including a copy of the relevant document from the bishop.

Pax and God Bless.

 

[Cristiano]

…Your statement implies that you see someone breaking a law. Which law? It’s a simple question…

I do not see any one breaking any law. You are saying that the pastor’s possible decisions might break canon law, and to that I was simply saying to avoid putting him in that position. I do not know if not obeying your pastor in those circumstances breaks a code of the law (and which one?) and I do not know if the pastor possible reactions would break canon law (and which one?). Again the point that I am trying to make is that usually disobedience breaks a rule or a law, my other point is that we all have rights and obligations, and finally because I am not a canon lawyer I tend to follow common sense by discussing directly with the people involved instead of preparing for a confrontation by quoting the CCL.

If we were not discussing a realistic case, as your situation, but we were playing canon lawyers then I would probably search through the CCL just to win the argument independently from being right or wrong. However, here we are talking about a real case and the damage that would come from being wrong could be too high for everybody, thus I rather be flexible and even willing to do something that is not the most appealing thing. This is why I say just talk to the priest and be very honest about the things that bother you.

Finally if I were you I would first talk to the priest instead of writing and I would keep the bishop out of it. Later if you are not satisfied you could put in writing and you cc the bishop. The gospel is quite clear that first we have to try to solve the issue with our brother and only later we should escalate it.

 

[Dan_Daly]

There are several reasons.

1. The faith formation of my children is my responsibility. When I stand before God to be judged, how I taught or failed to teach my children the faith will be one of the things He judges me on. I believe it is one of my most important duties as a parent. If I send my children to a class at which I am not present, I do not know what they are being taught. I know from personal experience that much of what is taught at CCDs courses (other courses, not this parish) is not orthodox Catholic teaching. If my child goes to CCD and is taught “there is no absolute truth” (as I was taught in Catholic High School), and it damages his faith- I am responsible for that damage, even if I am unaware of what was taught, because I sent my child there to receive the instruction.
2. I have very serious reservations about institutional schooling in general. It’s one of the reasons we are homeschooling. Children are not cogs to be plugged interchangeably into a machine. Each one is different, and instructing them in large class groups overlooks this. Children, at public school, private school, catholic school, and CCD also can be very cruel and a lot of bullying/picking on can and does go on. My wife and I also very deliberately work to protect our children from worldly influences, TV, pop music, movies, etc. Yes, I am fully aware that at some age, our children will have to confront these things to one degree or another. However, I do not believe my children have reached that age.
3. We attend Church a significant distance from where we live. Because of my work schedule, and the fact that we only have one car, getting our child to the classes all the time would be a logistical obstacle. I do not equate this in importance with the other reasons I give, but it is a reason.
4. Laws should be followed. Despite what some others may think, I place a very high importance on a Catholic’s obligation to obedience to lawful authority. It is my understanding that MANDATING special programs for catechism preperation is unlawful. Therefore I have a duty to work to correct the situation. If someone infringes on your rights, and you sit silently by and do nothing, you will lose the ability to exercise your right.

This is rather long, but also very good. Towards the beginning the priest giving the sermon rather clearly, and disturbingly, outlines some of the very serious concerns parents should have about sending their children off for faith formation, by quoting the results of a survey of Elementary Catholic School Religion Teachers.

AudioSancto.org/auweb/20080310-2008-Lenten-Mission-Part-1-Recognizing-the-Signs-of-the-Times.mp3

Pax and God Bless.

 

[hangel]

I plan to prepare my own children. Our parish program is much below my standards for what I expect my children to know. If they only have to atend then my 3year old can tell you what the 2nd graders are being tought in class. Our pastor is very suportive of homeschoolers. He just has a talk with the child to make sure they are prepared, then allows them to recieve their sacraments. He always says they are better prepared than the CCD classes because it is being tought daily not just 1hr a week. He also stresses in his homilies that “PARENTS ARE THE FIIRST TEACHERS OF THE FAITH”.
Good luck with your pastor!

 

[hangel]

go to the vatican website: www.vatican.va
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P39.HTM

It says the following: Cannon Law States:
Can. 914 It is primarily the duty of parents and those who take the place of parents, as well as the duty of pastors, to take care that children who have reached the use of reason are prepared properly and, after they have made sacramental confession, are refreshed with this divine food as soon as possible. It is for the pastor to exercise vigilance so that children who have not attained the use of reason or whom he judges are not sufficiently disposed do not approach holy communion.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think that it’s very important for children (and adults) to learn from an early age that much of life is non-interesting, irrelevant, and dull, and that learning about their faith doesn’t always involve puppets, songs and dances, and a funny teacher.

When people don’t learn how to handle boring situations, they see nothing valuable in anything that isn’t highly entertaining.

There are Christians who believe that “quiet” is equivalent to “spiritually dead,” and “slow” is equivalent to “non-spiritual.” There are many Christians who are afraid of silence and of being alone. There are many people in this world who have withdrawal symptoms if they don’t have their iPods.

It is important to teach children how to graciously handle a non-interesting, irrelevant, and dull situation. It upsets me when school-aged children let the world know by their body language, facial expressions, and demeanor how much pain and suffering they are enduring at the hands of the most uninteresting, irrevelant, and dull teacher or activity in the entire history of the universe. IMO, such children should be taught to look for things to learn and appreciate in all situations, not just the ones that please them. And they should learn that their enjoyment of a situation doesn’t depend on the teacher and his/her techniques, but on their own attitude.

You know, I never thought of it quite that way before. I like that. Thanks!

 

[SanAgustin]

1. I have very serious reservations about institutional schooling in general

How do you feel about universities?

I’m very impressed at my parish’s CCD program, it seems very well organized and there’s a lot of participation. However, they also do offer a home schooling option, which I think it’s great. We could have opted for the home school option, but we opted in volunteering instead. We did this because we feel we’re being called to contribute in this way, and because I want my kids to interact with other Catholic kids outside their siblings. I think there’s a lot of value in that.

 

[Dan_Daly]

How do you feel about universities?

I’m very impressed at my parish’s CCD program, it seems very well organized and there’s a lot of participation. However, they also do offer a home schooling option, which I think it’s great. We could have opted for the home school option, but we opted in volunteering instead. We did this because we feel we’re being called to contribute in this way, and because I want my kids to interact with other Catholic kids outside their siblings. I think there’s a lot of value in that.

I agree there is a great deal of value in interacting with other children. We are very blessed to know several other homeschooling families in our area and get together for group events (and simply hanging out) on a regular basis.

What do I think of Universities? There is a broad subject. In short, I think MOST colleges in the United States are very antagonistic to the Catholic faith, both in the actual course of instruction and the environment/lifestyle. That would go for both public, private and sadly most Catholic schools. Georgetown and Notre Dame are two that have been in the news the past few years. There behavior has been shameful, but I don’t think it’s much different than most “Catholic” schools. I think most Catholic schools are Catholic in name only, and in many cases, a sincere Catholic would actually be better off at a non-Catholic school then a “Catholic” one.

However, there are a handful of very good Catholic schools out there fighting the good fight. Franciscan University of Steubenville and Christendom College are two that I always make sure to speak highly off when the topic of picking a college comes up in conversation.

The quality of colleges aside, I think the perceived necessity of college has done a great deal of damage to our society. The idea that every middle class kid should go to college, and if he doesn’t, he’s a failure is a bad one I think. Skilled trades such as plumbing, electrical work, welding, farming, etc. Those are honorable professions, not something to be looked down upon as many in our culture do. The honorable calling to be a housewife and mother does not require a college degree either.

I hope that helps answer your question, but I don’t want to drag the thread too off topic though.

There is a great deal of difference between college and pre-1st Holy Communion classes though. Mainly, in one the students are adults (or at least supposed to be) and in the other they are children.

Pax and God Bless.

 

[SanAgustin]

I agree there is a great deal of value in interacting with other children. We are very blessed to know several other homeschooling families in our area and get together for group events (and simply hanging out) on a regular basis.

That great, I think it is key for Catholic children to be able to talk about their faith with peers in their own age groups. This made a key difference in my formation, as I discovered God and his Church when attending youth groups as a teen.

I think parents wanting to do their own religious ed with their kids is not even an issue, that’s what we are supposed and called to do! That’s why it’s great in our parish both options are offered. However I was touched by one of the parents in the first class saying she wanted to take her kid and was hoping to even learn a few things from her! In many cases, a lot of parents need that help that a CCD class with a good program can provide.

What do I think of Universities? There is a broad subject. In short, I think MOST colleges in the United States are very antagonistic to the Catholic faith, both in the actual course of instruction and the environment/lifestyle. That would go for both public, private and sadly most Catholic schools.

I studied Computer Science at a state university, probably my period of greatest spiritual growth in my life. Not because of the school, but because I was involved in young adult ministry, etc. For what I was studying to be quite honest, I didn’t see a need to go to a “Catholic University” at all.

I was asking because at some point your kids will grow up and have to confront an environment of learning with others, that will not necessarily share their own beliefs. It sounds like you’re preparing them for that, that’s great.

 

[Humbled1]

The quality of colleges aside, I think the perceived necessity of college has done a great deal of damage to our society. The idea that every middle class kid should go to college, and if he doesn’t, he’s a failure is a bad one I think. Skilled trades such as plumbing, electrical work, welding, farming, etc. Those are honorable professions, not something to be looked down upon as many in our culture do. The honorable calling to be a housewife and mother does not require a college degree either.

:clapping:

I think I’ve agree with pretty much everything you’ve posted on this thread, but this one quote in particular is an important point that needs to be made over and over again until it sinks into modern-day society’s brain.

 

[puzzleannie]

We have had this conversation before. I wish I knew then what I know now. I would have put my foot down.
I agree…to a point. What about when that obedience leads to sin or the near occasion of sin? As it did when I saw a picture of my son holding a young lady in his arms?.

Or when that obedience allows falsehoods about the faith to be taught? )

if you have these concerns take them to the pastor and the diocese if necessary. Every diocese has in place a procedure to deal with such justifiable parent complaints and it is your right and duty to complain.

when I speak of obedience it is understood to be under the same terms as the 4th commandment–we are to obey parents and lawful superiors and authority in all matters that are not sinful. did not think it had to be stated again in this context, but for those who have not heard it, here it is.

get your baseball bats out because I am going to say it again: if you don’t like the way CCD/RE/PSR etc is done in your parish, get involved, particularly if it is your own child who is being affected. No not everyone has the freedom to be there in every session, but all parents can and should know what is going on in ANY program their children attend, and who is the adult leadership.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

get your baseball bats out because I am going to say it again: if you don’t like the way CCD/RE/PSR etc is done in your parish, get involved, particularly if it is your own child who is being affected. No not everyone has the freedom to be there in every session, but all parents can and should know what is going on in ANY program their children attend, and who is the adult leadership.

That is true. We can’t sit back and whine about something and not at least try to make a difference ourselves. But that doesn’t solve the problem for our own children. Often, the parent finds out the religious ed program is terrible at the time their children are supposed to be in the program. If that parent immediately volunteers, they will be coming in as a first time volunteer, not the person who can turn the program around in 30 days. Therefore, while that parent’s involvement might actually result in the program being improved, there is a good chance that it won’t happen before his children have already gone through the classes. It takes time, and meanwhile, you can’t just let your kids suffer because it is going to be better in the future. And there’s no guarantee that a parent will be allowed to teach his own child’s class, which would be the best chance at protecting them from negative influence before the program has been changed. Even if you’re not volunteering, but simply being knowledgable and advocating for your child, that doesn’t mean you will be successful at it, especially if you are working in direct opposition to the people who are doing the teaching.

Also, volunteering in the religious ed program is not an option for every parent. Particularly parents with larger families, or parents who have non-traditional work hours…For some people the season that they can get more involved comes AFTER their kids are a little older and more independent - not everyone can do it all at the same time. This may not be selfishness, but rather prudent attention to God’s call for them to focus on the vocation of their family. Should the children’ of these parents be penalized because of this? EVERY child has a right to proper faith formation. And if the parish isn’t providing it, those children STILL have the right to proper faith formation, whether or not their parents are in a position to make it happen at the parish. Not every parent is responsible for the entire parish program, but every parent IS responsible for his/her own child.

 

[puzzleannie]

no you cannot turn a program around in 30 days
but you can find out what is going on and work with the pastor to change it
chances are he has never observed the troublesome things you are seeing.
you do have an obligation beyond your own child, toward those who may not have as caring or informed parents.

 

[KCT]

I plan to prepare my own children. Our parish program is much below my standards for what I expect my children to know. If they only have to atend then my 3year old can tell you what the 2nd graders are being tought in class. Our pastor is very suportive of homeschoolers. He just has a talk with the child to make sure they are prepared, then allows them to recieve their sacraments. He always says they are better prepared than the CCD classes because it is being tought daily not just 1hr a week. He also stresses in his homilies that “PARENTS ARE THE FIIRST TEACHERS OF THE FAITH”.
Good luck with your pastor!

I’m a fairly new Coordinator of Religious Ed and told the parents at our meeting last week that I believe w/ all my heart that they are the primary educators of their children. We are here to support them, not do it for them.

I’m also a former home schooler who did what my parish asked when time came for sacraments. Thankfully it was simple.

Right now, the parish where I work has a separate class for 2nd graders (in addition to Sunday morning Rel Ed). Father is OK w/ offering a home teaching option next year. I’m really excited about that!

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

no you cannot turn a program around in 30 days
but you can find out what is going on and work with the pastor to change it
chances are he has never observed the troublesome things you are seeing.
you do have an obligation beyond your own child, toward those who may not have as caring or informed parents.

This is why we have volunteered to teach the 2nd grade religious ed class at our church, even though we don’t have a student in the class. Here’s the thing - they didn’t need us this year. Here’s the other thing - if they do use us in the future, I still don’t plan on changing my children’s level of involvement in the religious ed program at the church (we only enroll them for 2nd grade, not before or after). Even if we are a positive influence on the program, it still is not likely to change enough to make it worth putting my kids in the program. I have considered having the older ones be helpers in the class - which would be of greater spiritual benefit to them. So my point is not that what you’re saying is wrong, but that you’re making it out to be an either/or situation. My point is that helping out the parish program AND keeping your kids out of the same program are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Cat]

I think one thing that’s very sad about this thread is the lack of trust that we have in our fellow Catholics.

There was a time when I was a child (back in the 60s) when parents could send their children to any home, class, school, or church, and be fairly certain that the values in that situation would be the same as the values in their home.

Now, we won’t even send our children to a church-established and managed religion class because we don’t trust our priest to oversee it, the teachers to teach it, and the other children to behave like Christians during it.

What have we come to? Why would ANYONE want to become a Christian when Christians don’t even trust each other?!

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

I think one thing that’s very sad about this thread is the lack of trust that we have in our fellow Catholics.

There was a time when I was a child (back in the 60s) when parents could send their children to any home, class, school, or church, and be fairly certain that the values in that situation would be the same as the values in their home.

Now, we won’t even send our children to a church-established and managed religion class because we don’t trust our priest to oversee it, the teachers to teach it, and the other children to behave like Christians during it.

What have we come to? Why would ANYONE want to become a Christian when Christians don’t even trust each other?!

It is very sad. But my impression is that this statement expresses disappointment in the people who don’t trust. Whereas I am disappointed in the conditions that have made the religious ed programs so untrustworthy. The reasons I don’t trust certain programs is BECAUSE I have witnessed them and been involved in them, and I know from experience that they are not to be trusted. It really is very sad.

But the same can be said that it is terribly sad that parents aren’t trusted either. As primary educators of our children, and as the domestic church, we OUGHT to be a trustworthy source of faith formation for our children. Yet we’re not. And as much as it is frustrating to me that my family has to deal with the repercussions of being unfairly not-trusted to teach the faith, I can understand WHY it has come to that. The catholic family, has become less than trustworthy - right alongside (or led by? or because of lack of leadership by?) the parishes.

Very sad.

 

[PatriceA]

It is very sad. But my impression is that this statement expresses disappointment in the people who don’t trust. Whereas I am disappointed in the conditions that have made the religious ed programs so untrustworthy. The reasons I don’t trust certain programs is BECAUSE I have witnessed them and been involved in them, and I know from experience that they are not to be trusted. It really is very sad.

/QUOTE]

This. I don’t think anyone can really understand how difficult it is to trust religious education programs if they have never had a truly bad experience with one. We got burned, badly, by our experience and now when it comes to enrolling our daughter in the currect religious ed program and any future programs, we ask a ton of questions and do our research. I will never just “trust” a program simply because its run by a parish or other Catholic ministry.

 

[KCT]

There was a time when I was a child (back in the 60s) when parents could send their children to any home, class, school, or church, and be fairly certain that the values in that situation would be the same as the values in their home.

Now, we won’t even send our children to a church-established and managed religion class because we don’t trust our priest to oversee it, the teachers to teach it, and the other children to behave like Christians during it.

Our local DRE’s are planning a catechist retreat that is to be led by a ‘liberal’ nun who is into Reiki. That’s the kind of formation our catechists are receiving. That wasn’t happening in the 60’s. (at least not so much…)

I sent the guy in charge info about Reiki and he admitted that he didn’t fully realize what it is. He’s going to be sure the nun doesn’t mention Reiki in her retreat. Is that really good enough? Why is she giving the retreat in the first place? (rhetorical question)

Thankfully, the pastor where I work does not want our catechists going to such a retreat. Sadly, plenty of catechists from other parishes will go. I can see why some parents are hesitant to put their kids in religious ed.