Mandatory vaccinations vs moral objection

[Maezck]

Yes, and? It still shows the death rate. It is important data. We must remember what will happen, not just what is happening. I would like to see legal, civil consequences for parents who expose and infect other children who do not qualify for immunization through reckless conduct, just like is done for all reckless conduct, like texting or drinking while driving in public. Or a better analogy is like a person who knowingly has a communicable STD knowingly infecting another. If a parent wishes to make that choice, then at least allow for the consequence of that choice to be addressed.

Again, my post was referring to the post vaccine era. Only in the US. You cited worldwide stats from third world nations, and did not read my OP. Your citation of the death rates do not apply to my post, if you would have read it. Indeed the internet is a curse and a health risk, people being scared into vaccinating for third world nation stats. Ridiculous.
There are no parents who expose and infect. There are no deaths in the US from this. Reckless conduct? I would like to see legal, civil consequences for these manufacturers who are free from ALL liability, from each of those 93,000 + injuries and hospitalizations as well as deaths included from the MMR since Nov 2018. Lets expose the apparent mass misleading of safety and efficacy, especially as the MMR in the US is shown to be more dangerous than the measles here.

Where there is risk, there must be choice.

 

[Jillian4]

That isn’t what causes sepsis

Yes, we realize this. A complication of chicken pox can also be a bloodstream infection, sepsis though. Tylenol can prolong illness and worsen the itching, causing mass fluid-filled blisters, begins to look just like smallpox which is what he was speaking of/I had asked him about.

 

[PJH_74]

You cut my comment off and took it out of context first off. I had stated in the US as a first world nation, meaning post vaccine 1963, my statement would be true.

OK, here’s everything from that post:

Interesting when the measles doesn’t kill anyone in the Us as a first world nation with access to nutrition. Matter a fact, the mmr has killed more children than the measles. As vaccines are considered medical choices, religious exemptions allow for Christians to have the choice to inject other aborted women’s babies into them or not. We decide not as ethical humans. Thanks

And my reply:

Matter a fact, the mmr has killed more children than the measles

I’m not sure how you think that affects my original comments. Indeed I might add 400 plus, people have died from Measles this year, not sure how that nutrition comment is relevant given the lack of vaccination. Religious exemptions apply to those who belong to religions specifically banning something. The Catholic Church does not do so and it is not a generic “Christian” thing.

 

[thistle]

Also, the risks are often hysterically overblown. Can you quantify for me the exact danger that my first grader will catch Hep B in a classroom setting?

I disagree with that. Look at the global measles epidemic which started around September last year. Reason? Decline in vaccinations through scaremongering about vaccinations being bad to get done. Here in the Philippines measles cases were up by nearly 390% on the previous year. We had 110 deaths, all young children who had not being vaccinated.
Why on earth would you single out Hep B?? The biggest problem are the more common diseases like measles, chickenpox, whooping cough, polio, mumps etc.

It is just my personal opinion but I believe vaccinations must be made mandatory and that parents who refuse should be prosecuted. I would even consider denying children vaccinations as child neglect.

 

[Maezck]

Matter a fact, the mmr has killed more children than the measles

You’re not sure how it’s relevant because you took it out of context. My post had nothing to do with any era of unknown stats of who was exposed and protected. Fatality stats though, are known, and had not been reduced with the inception of the vaccine, so your airbag example doesn’t apply. Especially since the mass decline had already been occurring for at least 30 years before the vax ever existed, not due to a vaccine. Interesting you claim numbers are unknown either way, then you claim numbers are then magically known.

Religious exemptions exist and belong to those who have an ethical issue of said medical product, the Catholic church sure does allow for it, since the Vatican has provided adequate letters to demonstrate choice is acceptable in the debate of making a personal choice to choose to have other women’s abortions injected into ones body, or not. Whether you like it or not, I might add. Countless of parents and college students have had their religious exemptions approved on a yearly basis in all 50 states (47 states now as of 2019).

 

[13pollitos]

I think some of the disconnect begins with the lack of these diseases in the public eye anymore. Many of the parents that have children vaccine ages have never seen measles, whooping cough, tetanus, mumps, and some even chicken pox. How many Americans with vaccine aged children have seen polio, diphtheria, or Haemophilus influenza B? It is hard to imagine things never seen up close.

That is a blessing of vaccines, and it is also a curse. Through vaccines, diseases once feared are now virtually unknown.

 

[blackforest]

I disagree with that. Look at the global measles epidemic which started around September last year. Reason? Decline in vaccinations through scaremongering about vaccinations being bad to get done.

In the U.S., this simply isn’t true. Vaccination rates are record-high.

Why on earth would you single out Hep B?? The biggest problem are the more common diseases like measles, chickenpox, whooping cough, polio, mumps etc.

Because Hep B vaccination is mandatory for schools. Because Catholic children are unwelcome in many Catholic schools without it. Doesn’t that sound a little fanatical to you? Do you believe that Hep B vaccination should be mandated for five-year-olds to go to school?

It is just my personal opinion but I believe vaccinations must be made mandatory and that parents who refuse should be prosecuted. I would even consider denying children vaccinations as child neglect.

All vaccines? Hep B? Hep A? Influenza? Should the government snatch my daughter away from me because I’m letting her wait until she’s 18 to make her own decision about Gardasil?

What about vaccines that have killed children or caused polio? (Look up cases in India, China, Mexico, Pakistan, and, yes, the Philippines). What about vaccines in countries where they are indemnified, like the U.S.?

I’m as grateful for vaccines as I am cautious. My grandmother has recounted nightmares about polio. Yearly flu shots for New York school children is overkill. It’s not a black and white issue.

 

[Padres1969]

Not should there be. Vaccinations shouldn’t be open to choice if you want to be part of society.

 

[blackforest]

Which vaccinations? All of them?

I hear a lot of generalizations in this thread, so clarification is important.

 

[Padres1969]

All of the near universally agree upon required ones (ie: MMR, Polio, Varicella, etc…). That will obviously fluctuate as diseases are eradicated (for example smallpox vaccine is kind of pointless presently but should it ever come back as a threat… then vaccination would surely follow). But there is no reason anyone who isn’t actually medically unable to accept a vaccine to be granted exemptions. Societal safety and the right to life, liberty and happiness of those that are incapable of being vaccinated (or too young) in this instance far outweigh the groundless anti vaxxer paranoia.

 

[pnewton]

But the data is out of context. It is disingenuous fear-mongering to cite Third World death rates and apply them to a First World setting.

I totally disagree. First of all, the person referenced children died. Ignore what happens elsewhere at out own peril. Disease does not recognize income levels or national status. The reason that the disease does not affect us like it does other countries is because we have immunization. Even in the US, prior to the vaccination:

In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year, among reported cases, an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 1,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles.

We also lose no more people to smallpox than the vaccine, as both are zero. Does this mean that the vaccine was never needed? Come on. The logic error there should be obvious.

Again, my post was referring to the post vaccine era.
And my data showed we are not “post vaccine.” If we quit, then the disease will re-emerge. Or more accurately, to the extent we do not vaccinate we will have more disease, in other words, more of a third world country.

• and methodically imposed punishments, such as banning children from Catholic education if they’re missing so much as one of 72 doses from the vaccine schedule.

This is not a punishment, anymore than saying a person is punished because they do not want to pay tuition. If one does not want to contribute to the safety of the school, then it is not punishment to say they cannot attend.

Reckless conduct? I would like to see legal, civil consequences for these manufacturers who are free from ALL liability, from each of those 93,000 + injuries and hospitalizations as well as deaths included from the MMR since Nov 2018. Lets expose the apparent mass misleading of safety and efficacy, especially as the MMR in the US is shown to be more dangerous than the measles here.

I stuck with the CDC for information. If you see this as a danger, than I can argue the point with you no more that I can argue the earth is round with a flat-earther, or with 9-11 truthers. The vaccine controversy is not a controversy in the medical profession, at least it is not a vaccinate/ don’t vaccinate controversy.

And yes, I understand the argument for choice. But I also believe that those who do not vaccinate without and underlying medical reason should not be allowed to place their children in the general population. Those who deny herd immunity should not be in the herd.

 

[blackforest]

Disease does not recognize income levels or national status.

This is inaccurate and incorrect. There are diseases specific to and contained within certain regions of the world, such as Japanese encephalitis and yellow fever. Sanitation prevents the spread of disease, and access to adequate medical care can either cure or minimize symptoms. Diseases like Hep A and polio are spread through poop, a factor mitigated by indoor plumbing and proper biohazard disposal and trash collection protocols. Under-developed countries don’t have either of these and therefore suffer more.

If one does not want to contribute to the safety of the school, then it is not punishment to say they cannot attend.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) Maezck:

Nobody will answer my question, so maybe you can give it a shot (pun not intended). Should my children, not vaccinated for Hep B, be barred from attending Catholic schools?

This is not a punishment, anymore than saying a person is punished because they do not want to pay tuition. If one does not want to contribute to the safety of the school, then it is not punishment to say they cannot attend.

I would therefore make a modest proposal that parents stop driving their kids to school. Catholic schools concerned about safety should ban the practice completely.
Car accidents are the #1 killer of children.

In the case of an indemnified pharmaceutical product, medical risk-taking should not be forced.

And yes, I understand the argument for choice. But I also believe that those who do not vaccinate without and underlying medical reason should not be allowed to place their children in the general population. Those who deny herd immunity should not be in the herd.

Tetanus, Hep A, HPV, Hep B, and HPV are not casually communicable or even herd-immunity diseases, so be careful of your generalizations.

The only solution to keeping others out of the “herd” is to kill them. If you’re worried that the vaccines you have will suddenly stop working around uninfected and unvaccinated people, there’s not much more I can tell you.

All of the near universally agree upon required ones (ie: MMR, Polio, Varicella, etc…).

Epidemiologists at Great Britain’s National Health Service would disagree with you on varicella. There’s no routine childhood chicken pox vaccination in the U.K. Should British families be “part of society?” Or are you proposing to give Brexit a whole new meaning?

 

[jrgmercado]

That’s cause MMR is a required vaccination in Mexico and most South American countries. As a matter of fact, there are other vaccinations required there at aren’t required here, one is for TB.

 

[Padres1969]

The UK not requiring varicella is their loss. The US pretty much across the board requires it as they should. Shingles alone makes never getting the disease a must. Never mind the danger of chickenpox itself.

 

[Lemuel]

We don’t vaccinate our kids nor will we ever.

 

[Lemuel]

Should my children, not vaccinated for Hep B, be barred from attending Catholic schools?

That is for the schools to decide. We don’t vaccinate, but we also homeschool. It’s the best of both worlds.

 

[13pollitos]

I agree. It is perfectly acceptable for parents to decide not to immunize. It is also perfectly acceptable for schools to deny admission to those who are not immunized. Schools set their policies and parents should accept that, just as people should accept the decisions of parents.

 

[Thorolfr]

thistle:

I disagree with that. Look at the global measles epidemic which started around September last year. Reason? Decline in vaccinations through scaremongering about vaccinations being bad to get done.

In the U.S., this simply isn’t true. Vaccination rates are record-high.

To achieve “herd immunity,” for measles, at least 90-95% of the population need to be vaccinated. So, even if vaccination rates are high, if they go lower than 90-95%, that opens everyone up to an epidemic. There were 764 measles cases in New York this year, the highest in 25 years, and it started among populations that weren’t vaccinating, especially the Hasidic community:

As of April 10, at least 285 people in New York City — mainly in Brooklyn’s Williamsburg and Borough Park neighborhoods — had fallen ill. In nearby Rockland County, 168 people have caught the virus. The outbreaks have prompted health officials in both areas to declare states of emergency. In the city, officials ordered mandatory immunizations among unvaccinated people on Tuesday, threatening those who opt out with fines. Nearby Rockland took the unusual step of barring anyone under the age of 18 who hadn’t been vaccinated for measles from public places for 30 days in March. That order that was put on hold by a judge ten days later.

What’s notable here is that the affected communities are closely linked: Cases are occurring mostly among unvaccinated or under-vaccinated Orthodox Jews, particularly children. When asked why people are opting out of vaccines, the New York city health department said anti-vaccine propagandists are distributing misinformation in the community.

The fearmongerers include a group called PEACH — or Parents Educating and Advocating for Children’s Health — which appears to be targeting the Jewish community with misinformation about vaccine safety, citing rabbis as authorities, through a hotline and magazines. Brooklyn Orthodox Rabbi William Handler has also been proclaiming the well-debunked link between the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism. Parents who “placate the gods of vaccination” are engaging in “child sacrifice,” he told Vox.

New York’s Orthodox Jewish community is battling measles outbreaks. Vaccine deniers are to blame.

Rockland County and New York City have declared emergencies because of the outbreaks.

www.vox.com

 

[TheLittleLady]

This novel presents the debate.

Keep You Safe

For readers who love issue-driven fiction, Melissa Hill…

www.goodreads.com

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Your assertion is that refugees are vaccinated before they come to the US?

that is laughable!