Manila Cathedral: Mary Statue at the Center?

[CivisRomanusSum]

Hello!

I’ve attached a picture of the altar in the Manila Cathedral, Philippines. The Cathedral is a minor basilica dedicated to the Immaculate Conception. As you may see, at the center before the altar is a large statue of Mary instead of a crucifix. The altar crucifix is at the side. Is this canonically permitted? Shouldn’t the crucifix be at the center since it’s the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross that takes place on the altar?

 

[JurisPrudens]

Hello!

I’ve attached a picture of the altar in the Manila Cathedral, Philippines. The Cathedral is a minor basilica dedicated to the Immaculate Conception. As you may see, at the center before the altar is a large statue of Mary instead of a crucifix. The altar crucifix is at the side. Is this canonically permitted? Shouldn’t the crucifix be at the center since it’s the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross that takes place on the altar?

I’ve seen this at many auxiliary altars in European churches. But not at the main ones, so far.

 

[Adonia]

While the Blessed Mother is due respect, this is too much. Jesus is the center of our faith, not her. The statue needs to be put off to the side where it belongs.

 

[thistle]

Hello!

I’ve attached a picture of the altar in the Manila Cathedral, Philippines. The Cathedral is a minor basilica dedicated to the Immaculate Conception. As you may see, at the center before the altar is a large statue of Mary instead of a crucifix. The altar crucifix is at the side. Is this canonically permitted? Shouldn’t the crucifix be at the center since it’s the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross that takes place on the altar?

GIRM:

1. There is also to be a cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, either on the altar or near it, where it is clearly visible to the assembled congregation. It is appropriate that such a cross, which calls to mind for the faithful the saving Passion of the Lord, remain near the altar even outside of liturgical celebrations.

 

[1ke]

The altar crucifix is at the side. Is this canonically permitted? Shouldn’t the crucifix be at the center since it’s the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross that takes place on the altar?

The statue of Mary is not on the altar. There is an old high altar, with the statue in a niche above it. There is a freestanding altar where mass is celebrated, and the crucifix is standing directly beside it.

There is no requirement that the crucifix be “at the center”. Here is the relevant paragraph from the GIRM:

1. Likewise, either on the altar or near it, there is to be a cross, with the figure of Christ crucified upon it, a cross clearly visible to the assembled people. It is desirable that such a cross should remain near the altar even outside of liturgical celebrations, so as to call to mind for the faithful the saving Passion of the Lord.

 

[CivisRomanusSum]

I found this paragraph from Sacrosanctum Concilium:

“125. The practice of placing sacred images in churches so that they may be venerated by the faithful is to be maintained. Nevertheless their number should be moderate and their relative positions should reflect right order. For otherwise they may create confusion among the Christian people and foster devotion of doubtful orthodoxy.”

Don’t you think that the “relative position” of the statue of the Blessed Mother in this case doesn’t reflect “right order” and may “create confusion” or “foster devotion of doubtful orthodoxy?”

 

[lax16]

I found this paragraph from Sacrosanctum Concilium:

“125. The practice of placing sacred images in churches so that they may be venerated by the faithful is to be maintained. Nevertheless their number should be moderate and their relative positions should reflect right order. For otherwise they may create confusion among the Christian people and foster devotion of doubtful orthodoxy.”

Don’t you think that the “relative position” of the statue of the Blessed Mother in this case doesn’t reflect “right order” and may “create confusion” or “foster devotion of doubtful orthodoxy?”

Yes it does.

I have never seen a statue of the Blessed Mother front and center in a church before.

 

[1ke]

Don’t you think that the “relative position” of the statue of the Blessed Mother in this case doesn’t reflect “right order” and may “create confusion” or “foster devotion of doubtful orthodoxy?”

I certainly reflects “right order” in a cathedral named for and dedicated to the Immaculate Conception.

Please people, we are not iconoclasts.

 

[lax16]

I certainly reflects “right order” in a cathedral named for and dedicated to the Immaculate Conception.

Please people, we are not iconoclasts.

Many non- Catholics visit our churches. It could certainly cause confusion.

 

[1ke]

Many non- Catholics visit our churches. It could certainly cause confusion.

So what.

It is also an educational opportunity.

 

[lax16]

So what.

It is also an educational opportunity.

I care about non-Catholics. That’s so what.

It’s an educational opportunity if people want to look into it. For those that don’t, it may foster confusion.

 

[Della]

Yes it does.

I have never seen a statue of the Blessed Mother front and center in a church before.

Parishes, cathedrals, basilicas dedicated to Mary often have a statue of her upfront and center. This is perfectly right and proper. We have to remember who Mary is. She’s not a pagan goddess–she’s the Mother of God. Whom did she conceive in her womb, to whom did she give birth? Apollo? Ares? Hercules? No, to Jesus Christ our Redeemer and Savior. It is perfectly proper and right-ordered to contemplate Mary and her attributes since she is the Second Eve who by her fiat righted the disobedience of Eve in her fiat, which gave us Christ. Gazing upon her likeness and meditating on her life, her virtues, her privileges can tell us many things about Christ and God’s love–for he created each of us to be holy as she is, good as she is, and obedient to God’s will as she is and ever will be. We are to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. Mary exemplified that in her life. It means that it is possible for us to do so, as well.

 

[Polycarp1]

I notice that above Mary is the Holy Spirit represented as a dove with rays radiating from it.

 

[Della]

I notice that above Mary is the Holy Spirit represented as a dove with rays radiating from it.

I hadn’t notice that at first glance. Thanks for pointing it out. It shows that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and since the cathedral is dedicated to Mary, it shows that by the power of the Holy Spirit she was conceived without the stain of original sin. We have to take into account the whole of the Gospel not merely the parts that we find acceptable. Denying Mary’s role in salvation history comes dangerously close to denying the Incarnation. Shoving Mary into a corner with the idea that she deserves no more honor than any other mother or neglecting her altogether sends the wrong message. God became man. Grace builds on nature it doesn’t negate nature. We are fallen creatures not “totally depraved,” as some would have it. Truth is important, even in iconography, and the cathedral’s depiction is good iconography.

 

[lax16]

Parishes, cathedrals, basilicas dedicated to Mary often have a statue of her upfront and center. This is perfectly right and proper. We have to remember who Mary is. She’s not a pagan goddess–she’s the Mother of God. Whom did she conceive in her womb, to whom did she give birth? Apollo? Ares? Hercules? No, to Jesus Christ our Redeemer and Savior. It is perfectly proper and right-ordered to contemplate Mary and her attributes since she is the Second Eve who by her fiat righted the disobedience of Eve in her fiat, which gave us Christ. Gazing upon her likeness and meditating on her life, her virtues, her privileges can tell us many things about Christ and God’s love–for he created each of us to be holy as she is, good as she is, and obedient to God’s will as she is and ever will be. We are to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. Mary exemplified that in her life. It means that it is possible for us to do so, as well.

I remember who Mary is. It’s the people that aren’t Catholic that might get the wrong message.

My house is filled with images of the Blessed Mother. My husband says I am over the top! I have a very strong devotion to her and always have.

This isn’t about me or about people who “get it”.

I live in Utah now and do not take for granted that outsiders will understand. I am much more sensitive about displaying images for non-Catholics to see because I do not want them to make /carry false ideas about the Catholic Church in their heads.

Catholics are accused by a great number of people of being Mary-worshippers. Seeing things though their eyes is a great tool for evangelizing and understanding.

Obviously Catholic churches should have a statue of our Blessed Mother. Just not where an image of Our Lord should be.

 

[CivisRomanusSum]

I hadn’t notice that at first glance. Thanks for pointing it out. It shows that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and since the cathedral is dedicated to Mary, it shows that by the power of the Holy Spirit she was conceived without the stain of original sin. We have to take into account the whole of the Gospel not merely the parts that we find acceptable. Denying Mary’s role in salvation history comes dangerously close to denying the Incarnation. Shoving Mary into a corner with the idea that she deserves no more honor than any other mother or neglecting her altogether sends the wrong message. God became man. Grace builds on nature it doesn’t negate nature. We are fallen creatures not “totally depraved,” as some would have it. Truth is important, even in iconography, and the cathedral’s depiction is good iconography.

Hi! My concern is not about showing any less devotion to Mary, or even denying her role in our salvation. Not at all. My concern is about how the position of her image might convey wrong ideas about her proper place in the life of the Church. It’s certainly not about “shoving Mary into a corner” or “neglecting her altogether.” If there’s anyone who’s been shoved into a corner, it’s Jesus in the Tabernacle. Anyway, I just feel that any image of Mary, if at all, should be placed to the right of the Crucifix, which should be at the center, as is traditionally done (notwithstanding the fact that the Cathedral is dedicated in her honor). Echoing what’s already been said, the unusual position of her image in the Cathedral might confuse non-Catholics. Since the Cathedral is the place for the Liturgy, and Christ is at the center of the Liturgy, I think we can rightly assume that an image of Christ should be at the center. Extraordinary devotions to Mary and the saints have their rightful place outside the Liturgy, I think. Again, it’s all about relative positions, not about diminishing Mary in any way.

 

[Della]

I remember who Mary is. It’s the people that aren’t Catholic that might get the wrong message.

My house is filled with images of the Blessed Mother. My husband says I am over the top! I have a very strong devotion to her and always have.

This isn’t about me or about people who “get it”.

I live in Utah now and do not take for granted that outsiders will understand. I am much more sensitive about displaying images for non-Catholics to see because I do not want them to make /carry false ideas about the Catholic Church in their heads.

Catholics are accused by a great number of people of being Mary-worshippers. Seeing things though their eyes is a great tool for evangelizing and understanding.

Obviously Catholic churches should have a statue of our Blessed Mother. Just not where an image of Our Lord should be.

We cannot be ruled by what others might think. If they want to cling to their misconceptions, instead of simply asking us why we display images of Mary and other saints. Most of them wouldn’t have a statue of Jesus in their churches or homes, either. Does that mean they think of Jesus as an idol? I think that’s something they have to answer for themselves. I have a statue of St. Joseph in front of my house. If anyone wants to know why it’s there, they are free to ask me. I will not be governed by Protestant sensibilities, as if I had to explain my beliefs to their satisfaction. That’s living under someone’s else’s ideas, not according to our beliefs.

 

[1ke]

If there’s anyone who’s been shoved into a corner, it’s Jesus in the Tabernacle.

Not in the cathedral in question. The tabernacle is directly behind the main altar, on the old high altar.

Anyway, I just feel that any image of Mary, if at all, should be placed to the right of the Crucifix, which should be at the center, as is traditionally done (notwithstanding the fact that the Cathedral is dedicated in her honor).

The crucifix is next to the altar that mass is celebrated on, that is what the GIRM calls for.

The freestanding altar on which mass is celebrated is separate from where the statue of the BVM is located, which you can clearly see in the picture.

Having been to countless churches in the US and Europe, I think your characterization of the placement of the crucifix is somewhat overstated. Simply google pictures of famous churches including Notre Dame de Paris, Chartres, St Peter’s, St Mary Major, etc. There is a small crucifix ON or NEAR the altar. There are statutes, paintings, mosaics, and other depictions of Mary, Jesus, the Saints, the Trinity, etc., on the wall behind the altar, on or above the old high altars.

In fact, my own parish church, which is 150 years old and dedicated to the BVM had a large statue of Our Lady in the center of the old high altar, with the 4 evangelist statues on the 4 corners in niches, and smaller statues St. Joseph, St. Anthony of Padua, Sacred Heart, and Madonna and Child statues on secondary altars. The crucifix was smaller and on the high altar adjacent to the tabernacle. On the new freestanding altar, it is next to the altar.

Echoing what’s already been said, the unusual position of her image

It’s not unusual at all, which a simple Google image search will confirm.

I think we can rightly assume that an image of Christ should be at the center.

No documents of the Church require that.

 

[JurisPrudens]

Yes it does.

I have never seen a statue of the Blessed Mother front and center in a church before.

I’ve seen them. At auxiliary altars.

 

[lax16]

We cannot be ruled by what others might think. If they want to cling to their misconceptions, instead of simply asking us why we display images of Mary and other saints. Most of them wouldn’t have a statue of Jesus in their churches or homes, either. Does that mean they think of Jesus as an idol? I think that’s something they have to answer for themselves. I have a statue of St. Joseph in front of my house. If anyone wants to know why it’s there, they are free to ask me. I will not be governed by Protestant sensibilities, as if I had to explain my beliefs to their satisfaction. That’s living under someone’s else’s ideas, not according to our beliefs.

I am not ruled by what others think (I assume that is what you are telling me). I have a St. Francis statue in my front and back yards and many religious symbols and pictures on my kitchen sink that is visible from three neighbors and everyone that walks on the walking path by my home.

That is my home.

Governed by Protestant sensibilities? Again, I assume you are saying that I am.

My primary goal is to bring Jesus to others in the hope that they will find His One True Church. It is my opinion that finding common ground is the best way to do this.

Peace.