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ALISANDRO
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An excellent point granny. I think that it is very easy to get the impression that the debate is just between two or three people, so you are absolutely right in stating that even rhetorical questions need to be answered, if only for the sake of the “guests” to the forum, (so long as they don’t end up more confused than when they began).
Anyway, “What is (my) opinion about the relationship to Adam?”, you ask. Well, if that is not a trick question, the simple answer is that my opinion is of no consequence since my Bible sets the whole thing out in easy to read terms, which I hasten to add, I accept by faith. Other than that I would venture to suggest that one of your Bible quotes contains the essence of the Blessed Hope of all Christians, Salvation. ( Rom. 5: 12-21 and especially verse 18). One last question on “transubstanciation” for my benefit and the benefit of any “guests”: According to Catholic Doctrine, at what specific point in the Mass does this “miracle” take place?
Christian regards, ALISANDRO.
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diggerdomer
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Ok…then to refer back to your post that I commented on…scientific theories are different than faith statements. Scientific theories that claim humans did not originate solely from one pair of humans are different than though not necessarily opposed to Catholic dogma that asserts God is creator of humanity.
Just like the dogma that Jesus Christ is both human and divine is not opposite to the truth that being human is completely different than being divine. Except in the singularly unique case of Jesus Christ.
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grannymh
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The Eucharistic “Miracle” takes place during the beautiful, prayerful section called the Eucharistic Prayer – the prayer of thanksgiving and consecration which is the heart and summit of the celebration.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 1348 -1355 describe the “movement” or parts of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It gives technical names for the parts of the Eucharistic prayer which begins with giving thanks and praise to the Father, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Then the priest in our name by the use of the word “we” asks the Father to accept and bless the gifts of bread and wine by sending the power of the Holy Spirit. The institution narrative follows, i.e., on the night Jesus was betrayed, He took bread and the cup of wine, said the blessing, and gave them to the disciples.
There are slightly different versions of the Eucharistic Prayer but they all result in the same action of Transubstantiation. The Catechism simply states: “In the institution narrative, the power of the words and the action of Christ, and the power of the Holy Spirit, make sacramentally present under the species of bread and wine Christ’s body and blood, His sacrifice offered on the cross once for all.” (CCC 1353)
The words from the Last Supper are called the Consecration of the Bread and Wine. These words are the holiest of all. This would be considered the place of Transubstantiation. It is important to remember that this happens through the power of the Holy Spirit with the priest acting in persona, the Latin for “in the Person of Christ.”
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Blessings,
granny
Link to Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition – www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
A paragraph number or words can be put in the search bar.
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buffalo
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To those who embrace scientism:
Blinded by Scientism
…Yet if science must depend upon philosophy both to justify its presuppositions and to interpret its results, the falsity of scientism seems doubly assured. As the conservative philosopher John Kekes (himself a confirmed secularist like Derbyshire and MacDonald) concludes: “Hence philosophy, and not science, is a stronger candidate for being the very paradigm of rationality.”
more…
Blinded by Scientism
…Yet if science must depend upon philosophy both to justify its presuppositions and to interpret its results, the falsity of scientism seems doubly assured. As the conservative philosopher John Kekes (himself a confirmed secularist like Derbyshire and MacDonald) concludes: “Hence philosophy, and not science, is a stronger candidate for being the very paradigm of rationality.”
more…
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ricmat
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BTW - My posts were directed at StA primarily.
You are changing the nature of the disagreement in your post above. I don’t recall anyone here saying that the controversy was the the scientific theory of many parents versus “God created humanity.”
The whole sub-thread started with the conflict between Church dogma and scientific theories. Particularly, that Adam/Eve are our sole parents, that all humans originated with them, and with them only. Scientific theory says that there were no 2 original sole parents that all humans originated with. These 2 things are opposites, not just “different.”
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grannymh
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From an analytical point of view, scientific research cannot rule out two sole parents of the human species.
In the field of genetics, Experimental Simulated Populations are used to predict the pattern of individual genomic samplings backwards millions of years. There is not sufficient data available. To extrapolate from conclusions regarding a fraction of genetic information, including assumptions and speculations, to an universal statement is neither warranted nor believable.
Blessings,
granny
Genesis 1: 1
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ricmat
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I agree. But some people think that it’s a sure thing - a fact as True as gravity, helio-centrism, and plate tectonics
. The purpose of my posts was to show that if a Catholic thinks that the science “fact” is True, that one must choose between Church dogma and the science-fact-du-jour. Because both can’t be True since they are opposites in this case.
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diggerdomer
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I’m not aware that scientific theories, all of them, deny the possibility that there two original sole parents. Is there a reference for that? Thanks.
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StAnastasia
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Granny, yours is the only use of the term “Experimental Simulated Populations” I could find on the entire internet. Did you invent this term, or did you find it some place? If so, where?
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ricmat
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I didn’t claim that all of them deny the possibility. In my posts, I was referring to the one in particular that was being discussed on this thread.
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grannymh
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I understand – loved that “science-fact-du-jour” and the tectonics plate. Will look for those the next time I eat out.I agree. But some people think that it’s a sure thing - a fact as True as gravity, helio-centrism, and plate tectonics
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grannymh
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Internationally known evolutionary geneticist and molecular biologist and current winner of the Templeton Prize, Francisco J. Ayala describes the use of Experimental Simulated Populations in “The Myth of Eve: Molecular Biology and Human Origins”, Science; December 22, 1995, page 1932. This paper is considered a landmark and is often cited as recommended reading.
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StAnastasia
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Recommended reading in support of a literal interpretation of the Adam and Eve story?
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ALISANDRO
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Hello StAnastasia, (Russion?), I am a definite believer in a literal Adam & Eve, and a literal Noah et al,but there is one question that I seek an answer to:- in Genesis 4: 14 & 15 when Cain, having murdered his brother Abel, was banished by the Lord and forced to wander as a vagabond, who did he suppose was going to slay him, since he and his parents were supposedly the only humans on the Earth at that time? My own attempt at an answer would be that perhaps there were many more children born to Adam & Eve before the murder, because the Scriptures do allow for that possibility, “And in the process of time…” (Gen.4:3). Oh! by the way, only the other day I saw an American newscast about a group of explorers, consisting of Turkish scientists and evangelical Chinese that have found the remains of a gigantic timber structure some where on Mt Ararat (modern dayTurkey), with interior patitions suitable for the purpose of holding animals.They have carbon dated the wood to approximately 4000 B.C. Sceptics are seeking further testing of the material. Any comments?
Christian regards, ALISANDRO.
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ThomasToo
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StAnastasia
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Humans from enemy tribes.
There were several thousand humans alive at the time, so I suppose it could have been any of them.
It’s a hoax.
Thanks – you too!
StAnastasia
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Benadam
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StAnastasia;:
StAnastasia
That’s problematic if you are suggesting a population that was not a generation of Adam and Eve. They would by necessity have to connect the mark to sin. If they do they must be considered Cain’es siblings.
StAnastasia
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StAnastasia
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???
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Benadam
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The mark was placed to prevent vengance. Cain’s sin caused an injustice to all humanity. This passage reveals that every person on earth was in communion, that everyone is wounded by Cain’s sin.
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