Many Christians Call Mary Blessed, But how many of us, call Her Mother?

[MaryT777]

$400 and control of the board.
Jon

I send the control of the board back to the topic; I’m feisty; I’m Irish Catholic what can I say?

Mary.

(Quotes for $600 Jon…)

 

[hosemonkey]

My Baptist in-law family members think of Mary as only a vessel that God used to carry Jesus in her womb. She was used for this purpose and then cast off. I find it extremely sad that they are downright antagonistic about Mary. I often thought about how each of us reveres our own mother, yet we are not supposed to revere the Mother of God. It makes no sense at all to me.

How sad. Our Blessed Mother has no more value than a fast-food wrapper? I have always regarded myself as having three mothers in heaven, my birth mother ( who died giving me life, my adoptive mother, who raised me, and my spiritual Mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is my intercessor and advocate before the throne of God. How privileged I am to have three mothers in heaven.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

This is really what it all boils down to. By whose authority do we believe what we believe?

My education (bachelor’s, master’s, teaching certificate, and 30+ years of reading on my own) have shown me how very little any one person can know in a lifetime. Yet we have 17 year olds telling us what the Bible really meant. (And I’m not referring to anyone here–if anyone on this thread happens to be 17, I was unaware.)

So who am I going to believe: an institution that has survived more than 2,000 years, its teachings supported by great saints and great theologians? The collective wisdom of millions of great, prayerful saints and great minds over 2,000 years? The word of Jesus that ‘you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church?’ Or an individual–be that Martin Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Mary Eddy Baker, Wesley, my next door neighbor–who claims in the space of 17 or 25 or 45 years to have out-thought and out-prayed them all? How would I choose from among the 40 thousand Protestant denominations? Which of them has the authority? And on what is their authority based? Every time someone disagrees with their current church, they are free to establish their own church based on their own interpretation of the Bible. Why would I choose one of them over the other? By contrast, I know exactly why I would choose the Church founded by Jesus.

I do not mean this as a slam on any other denomination* or any person*. In fact, I greatly admire the Mormons’ dedication to living their faith, for instance. I admire *anyone *who lives their faith, who lives with charity and kindness toward others, and I can tell you from personal experience that I know a Shinto-ist swinger who *behaves *with more genuine Christian charity than some ‘devout Catholics’ I know.

It is a theological comment on why I believe what the Catholic Church has to say…and hence a big part of why I ask Mary to be my mother.

To add, I believe in the communion of saints, that we are all the church together, that those who have gone before can still pray for me, and who better to pray for me than Mary herself? Who better to pray for those things I need from a mother than Mary herself? If she could raise God, perhaps she can do something with me!

Curious why you would include Martin Luther with Mary Eddy Baker and the others you’ve identified unless you know very little about Luther’s devotion to the Mother of God

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Curious why you would include Martin Luther with Mary Eddy Baker and the others you’ve identified unless you know very little about Luther’s devotion to the Mother of God

Agreed. Martin Luther’s devotion to Our Lady never wavered. In Holyrood’s defence though he was referring to Martin Luther in terms of ‘authority’ specifically and not of Luthers personal love and devotion for Our Lady.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Agreed. Martin Luther’s devotion to Our Lady never wavered. In Holyrood’s defence though he was referring to Martin Luther in terms of ‘authority’ specifically and not of Luthers personal love and devotion for Our Lady.

Perhaps but in the context of this thread on the blessed Virgin Mary, his comments were irrelevant in my opinion and somewhat offensive.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Perhaps but in the context of this thread on the blessed Virgin Mary, his comments were irrelevant in my opinion and somewhat offensive.

Point taken, I can see why you would be offended given ML’s well know veneration and love for Our Lady but I don’t think that was Holyrood’s intention or that he was being deliberately malicious.

 

[Protos]

Disagree

Woman is a direct relation to Genesis, and the continuity continues through the NT, Wedding of Cana, above as mentioned, Revelation etc.

I can’t see the connnection. Eve was named “woman” because she came out of man. She was named “Eve” because she was “mother of all the living”. If Jesus was drawing a paralell that Eve was the new Eve in being the mother of all the spiritually living I would have thought He would have made reference to her personal nameof Eve. Not to mention Jesus addressed many other women by the same name - “woman”.

This new theory of a break is from whom? .

From my own reading of the text

Luke -The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you”

When did this reality become not a reality? .

Not quite sure of the relevance of this I never denied that this stopped being a reality

 

[CatholicSheila]

From my own reading of the text

A question was asked earlier in the thread and it wasn’t answered. I’m quite curious as to what your answer is.

If you’re working sola scriptura on this verse, how do you even know that the disciple was John?

 

[WorkingFaith]

How about an old comparison. The Jews revered the Ark of the Covenant. Inside this ark was the Word of God ( the stone tablets, some say the law), Aaron’s rod, and a jar of manna. The Jews were not committing idolatry by revering the ark. Well Mary contained inside her the Word made flesh, the King of Kings who would rule with an iron rod, and the living bread come down from heaven. If the Jews revered a shadow of what was to come, how much more appropriate that we honor and revere Mary. As such the apostle John introduces to us in Revelations the ark of the covenant… A Woman. Read the end of Rev 11 and 12 without a chapter break. Remember that the chapters were installed later.

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Interesting I didn’t know that. I might not of been clear on the question though. Why is Mary considered to live a sinless life?

 

[WorkingFaith]

A question was asked earlier in the thread and it wasn’t answered. I’m quite curious as to what your answer is.

If you’re working sola scriptura on this verse, how do you even know that the disciple was John?

I can probably answer for the person. John refers to himself as the apostle Jesus loves (or something along those lines) in his gospel. I think we get that from comparing it to the other gospels. He was the only one at the cross (out of the apostles). Also I think from the Lord’s Supper where he was sitting compared to the other gospels. I think this is it.

 

[Protos]

A question was asked earlier in the thread and it wasn’t answered. I’m quite curious as to what your answer is.

If you’re working sola scriptura on this verse, how do you even know that the disciple was John?

John 21:24 - he was the one who wrote the book, and the early church witness supports the Johannine authorship. I think you misunderstand the doctrine of sola scriptura. Ministers and scholars consult historical evidence all the time to aid our understanding of the Bible and how to interpret it.

 

[concretecamper]

WorkingFaith:

Quote:

Originally Posted by concretecamper

How about an old comparison. The Jews revered the Ark of the Covenant. Inside this ark was the Word of God ( the stone tablets, some say the law), Aaron’s rod, and a jar of manna. The Jews were not committing idolatry by revering the ark. Well Mary contained inside her the Word made flesh, the King of Kings who would rule with an iron rod, and the living bread come down from heaven. If the Jews revered a shadow of what was to come, how much more appropriate that we honor and revere Mary. As such the apostle John introduces to us in Revelations the ark of the covenant… A Woman. Read the end of Rev 11 and 12 without a chapter break. Remember that the chapters were installed later.

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Interesting I didn’t know that. I might not of been clear on the question though. Why is Mary considered to live a sinless life?

One of my favorite church father’s quote:

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

Another thing to consider is the angel’s greeting “Hail full of grace”
. To be full of grace means there is no room for sin. If a glass is full of water, there is no room for air.

Another thing to consider is Mary’s magnificant. "my soul rejoices in God my savior. Mary’s immaculate conception is merited to Christ’s sacrifice and not her own merit.

Read the OT about the ark. It is considered pure and undefiled. If the ark in the OT, which is but a shadow of what is to come, is pure and undefiled, how much more must Mary be pure and undefiled to carry the Word made flesh, the King of Kings, the Bread of Life.

Mary does not detract from Christ. Once people get over that misconception, honoring Mary is just imitating Jesus…who fulfilled the 4th commandment better than anyone ever could.

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[WorkingFaith]

One of my favorite church father’s quote:

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

Another thing to consider is the angel’s greeting “Hail full of grace”
. To be full of grace means there is no room for sin. If a glass is full of water, there is no room for air.

Another thing to consider is Mary’s magnificant. "my soul rejoices in God my savior. Mary’s immaculate conception is merited to Christ’s sacrifice and not her own merit.

Read the OT about the ark. It is considered pure and undefiled. If the ark in the OT, which is but a shadow of what is to come, is pure and undefiled, how much more must Mary be pure and undefiled to carry the Word made flesh, the King of Kings, the Bread of Life.

Mary does not detract from Christ. Once people get over that misconception, honoring Mary is just imitating Jesus…who fulfilled the 4th commandment better than anyone ever could.

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I just did get that from the text, but I will look into it more. What about John the Baptist? The quote was who can compare to Mary’s greatness but doesn’t the bible say that John the Baptist was the greatest to walk to Earth that was born of woman?

 

[concretecamper]

WorkingFaith:

Quote:

Originally Posted by concretecamper

One of my favorite church father’s quote:

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

Another thing to consider is the angel’s greeting “Hail full of grace”
. To be full of grace means there is no room for sin. If a glass is full of water, there is no room for air.

Another thing to consider is Mary’s magnificant. "my soul rejoices in God my savior. Mary’s immaculate conception is merited to Christ’s sacrifice and not her own merit.

Read the OT about the ark. It is considered pure and undefiled. If the ark in the OT, which is but a shadow of what is to come, is pure and undefiled, how much more must Mary be pure and undefiled to carry the Word made flesh, the King of Kings, the Bread of Life.

Mary does not detract from Christ. Once people get over that misconception, honoring Mary is just imitating Jesus…who fulfilled the 4th commandment better than anyone ever could.

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I just did get that from the text, but I will look into it more. What about John the Baptist? The quote was who can compare to Mary’s greatness but doesn’t the bible say that John the Baptist was the greatest to walk to Earth that was born of woman?

If you read the entire chapter 11 of Matthew I think the context is different from what your question implies. If the context and is taken as your question implies, then John was greater that Christ because Christ was born of a woman too.

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[WorkingFaith]

If you read the entire chapter 11 of Matthew I think the context is different from what your question implies. If the context and is taken as your question implies, then John was greater that Christ because Christ was born of a woman too.

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Ya I also thought that was strange. What is Jesus saying in the text, if you don’t mind explaining? Still don’t get how Mary is sinless though, I understand what you were saying about full of grace and all of that but seems like a stretch to say she remained sinless her entire life.

 

[concretecamper]

WorkingFaith:

Quote:

Originally Posted by concretecamper

If you read the entire chapter 11 of Matthew I think the context is different from what your question implies. If the context and is taken as your question implies, then John was greater that Christ because Christ was born of a woman too.

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Ya I also thought that was strange. What is Jesus saying in the text, if you don’t mind explaining? Still don’t get how Mary is sinless though, I understand what you were saying about full of grace and all of that but seems like a stretch to say she remained sinless her entire life.

for God, nothing is impossible. For ALL of the early church fathers is was not a stretch. For Luther is was not a stretch. It is sad there are many Christians today that now feel it is a stretch.

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[WorkingFaith]

for God, nothing is impossible. For ALL of the early church fathers is was not a stretch. For Luther is was not a stretch. It is sad there are many Christians today that now feel it is a stretch.

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That is why I asked for some teaching of the early church saying that she was sinless…the other guy provided early church teaching of how she was honored but i was curious about the sinless idea.

 

[GaryTaylor]

That is why I asked for some teaching of the early church saying that she was sinless…the other guy provided early church teaching of how she was honored but i was curious about the sinless idea.

East: Bishop St. James the Just Apostle of Jerusalem. [Liturgy of St. James], “Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin,” and that Mary is “in every respect out of the range of sinful men.”

St. Ambrose. . . Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin. (Commentary on Psalm 118, 22, 30; Jurgens, II, 166)

 

[WorkingFaith]

East: Bishop St. James the Just Apostle of Jerusalem. [Liturgy of St. James], “Most holy, most glorious, immaculate, Mother of God and ever Virgin,” and that Mary is “in every respect out of the range of sinful men.”

St. Ambrose. . . Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin. (Commentary on Psalm 118, 22, 30; Jurgens, II, 166)

Thank you sir

 

[concretecamper]

WorkingFaith:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatholicSheila

A question was asked earlier in the thread and it wasn’t answered. I’m quite curious as to what your answer is.

If you’re working sola scriptura on this verse, how do you even know that the disciple was John?

I can probably answer for the person. John refers to himself as the apostle Jesus loves (or something along those lines) in his gospel. I think we get that from comparing it to the other gospels. He was the only one at the cross (out of the apostles). Also I think from the Lord’s Supper where he was sitting compared to the other gospels. I think this is it.

Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying “behold your mother.” Jesus did not say “John, behold your mother” because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

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