Many Protestants argue "How can this man give us his flesh to eat."

[Prodigal_Son1]

I will answer your other questions later after studying the links you gave.

I am very willing to discuss scripture surrounding the crucifixion, such as the above quote.

Jesus’ words to His Father are proof of just how serious and enormous the wrath of God was against the sin of the world that Jesus Christ had to bear for us sinners as our substitute.
Jesus had to endure an infinitely extreme pressure of suffering to pay the price required by a Holy God to atone for (make reparation for) the world’s sin.
The great debt was paid in full at Jesus’ death. All who come to Jesus in true faith will no longer be under the penalty of God’s wrath. All who came to God in true faith, before that, are also freed from the same penalty. All salvation from the penalty of all human sin in all time is based on what Jesus did as He sacrificed Himself to pay for mankind’s sin.
The extreme penalty of God’s wrath and anger against sin was so great, that Jesus must have felt a sense of total abandonment by even His Father, as He had the iniquity of us all placed upon Himself as our substitute. We can never truly understand how great Jesus’ suffering was as He payed that great price for our sin. God’s extreme love for us is shown by what Jesus suffered. God’s extreme glory as our Saviour is also evident there too. How great and loving is our Holy and Perfect God and Saviour.

I’ve heard of that interpretation before and have to confess, that’s what I expected you to say.

Assuming you realize those who were among the witnesses to Christ’s crucifixion were scribes, Pharisees and others who persecuted our Lord and called out for him to be crucified, you should know they knew the Old Testament very well as they heard verses in the Old Testament read in the Temple and synagogues regularly.

He was witnessing who He was as prophesied in the Old Testament. In doing this He showed them He was the Messiah who honored the Father and was not against God as He was accused.

As you read the following chapter from the Bible, keep the crucifixion in mind.

Psa 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry by day, but thou dost not answer; and by night, but find no rest. (The sky did not go dark until he gave up His Spirit.)
Psa 22:3 Yet thou art holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 In thee our fathers trusted; they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 To thee they cried, and were saved; in thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; scorned by men, and despised by the people.
Psa 22:7 All who see me mock at me, they make mouths at me, they wag their heads;
Psa 22:8 “He committed his cause to the LORD; let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for he delights in him!” (They said something to the effect, if you are the Son of God save yourself. Come down from the cross.)
Psa 22:9 Yet thou art he who took me from the womb; thou didst keep me safe upon my mother’s breasts. (Remember Herod’s attempt to kill the Messiah?)
Psa 22:10 Upon thee was I cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me thou hast been my God.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near and there is none to help.
Psa 22:12 Many bulls encompass me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me; (Romans.)
Psa 22:13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax, it is melted within my breast;
Psa 22:15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; thou dost lay me in the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet–
Psa 22:17 I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me;
Psa 22:18 they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots.
Psa 22:19 But thou, O LORD, be not far off! O thou my help, hasten to my aid!
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog!
Psa 22:21 Save me from the mouth of the lion, my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen!
Psa 22:22 I will tell of thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee:
Psa 22:23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! all you sons of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel!
Psa 22:24 For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him.
Psa 22:25 From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
Psa 22:26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever! (Prophecy of the Eucharist?)
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
Psa 22:28 For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
Psa 22:29 Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.
Psa 22:30 Posterity shall serve him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
Psa 22:31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it.

I only added a few comments in along the way as I believe you should be able see the many similarities in the other verses yourself.

What are you thoughts on this?

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[brkn1]

Assuming you realize those who were among the witnesses to Christ’s crucifixion were scribes, Pharisees and others who persecuted our Lord and called out for him to be crucified, you should know they knew the Old Testament very well as they heard verses in the Old Testament read in the Temple and synagogues regularly.

As you read the following chapter from the Bible, keep the crucifixion in mind.

Psa 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry by day, but thou dost not answer; and by night, but find no rest. (The sky did not go dark until he gave up His Spirit.)
Psa 22:3 Yet thou art holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 In thee our fathers trusted; they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 To thee they cried, and were saved; in thee they trusted, and were not disappointed.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; scorned by men, and despised by the people.
Psa 22:7 All who see me mock at me, they make mouths at me, they wag their heads;
Psa 22:8 “He committed his cause to the LORD; let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for he delights in him!” (They said something to the effect, if you are the Son of God save yourself. Come down from the cross.)
Psa 22:9 Yet thou art he who took me from the womb; thou didst keep me safe upon my mother’s breasts. (Remember Herod’s attempt to kill the Messiah?)
Psa 22:10 Upon thee was I cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me thou hast been my God.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near and there is none to help.
Psa 22:12 Many bulls encompass me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me; (Romans.)
Psa 22:13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax, it is melted within my breast;
Psa 22:15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; thou dost lay me in the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet–
Psa 22:17 I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me;
Psa 22:18 they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots.
Psa 22:19 But thou, O LORD, be not far off! O thou my help, hasten to my aid!
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog!
Psa 22:21 Save me from the mouth of the lion, my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen!
Psa 22:22 I will tell of thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee:
Psa 22:23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! all you sons of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel!
Psa 22:24 For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him.
Psa 22:25 From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
Psa 22:26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever! (Prophecy of the Eucharist?)
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
Psa 22:28 For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
Psa 22:29 Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive.
Psa 22:30 Posterity shall serve him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation,
Psa 22:31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it.

I only added a few comments in along the way as I believe you should be able see the many similarities in the other verses yourself.

What are you thoughts on this?

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

Psalm 22 is very definitely speaking of Christ and His sufferings.

Verse 26, which you emphasized, seems to be a questionable “Prophecy of the Eucharist” if studied in context of the entire Psalm 22.

The word “afflicted” in your version would be even less pointing to the Eucharist, since it points to a future that goes beyond this present world. This verse 26 reminds me of Jesus’ words in (Luke 6:21) “Blessed are ye that hunger now; for ye shall be filled…”

There is an “after this present world” expectancy to be “satisfied” as I understand Psalm 22. It certainly would be the case with our Saviour as He suffered crucifixion.

The future spiritual satisfaction of Jesus also reminds me of what Jesus said in (John 4:32), “I have meat to eat that ye know not of.” Jesus spoke this as opposed to physical meat that His disciples offered Him to satisfy His physical hunger.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Psalm 22 is very definitely speaking of Christ and His sufferings.

Verse 26, which you emphasized, seems to be a questionable “Prophecy of the Eucharist” if studied in context of the entire Psalm 22.

The word “afflicted” in your version would be even less pointing to the Eucharist, since it points to a future that goes beyond this present world. This verse 26 reminds me of Jesus’ words in (Luke 6:21) “Blessed are ye that hunger now; for ye shall be filled…”

I almost didn’t emphasize verse 26 as I’ve never seen it used as a validation or defense of the Eucharist. Only as I reflected on the post before posting it, did I see the possibility of a reference to the Eucharist. Couldn’t afflicted possibly pertain to all of us who are afflicted by sin? It seems to fit the more I reflect upon it as verses 27 to 31 seem to reference Christians, of all nations, worshipping God and the Kingdom of God.

There is an “after this present world” expectancy to be “satisfied” as I understand Psalm 22. It certainly would be the case with our Saviour as He suffered crucifixion.

The future spiritual satisfaction of Jesus also reminds me of what Jesus said in (John 4:32), “I have meat to eat that ye know not of.” Jesus spoke this as opposed to physical meat that His disciples offered Him to satisfy His physical hunger.

The “after this present world” expectancy to be satisfied could possibly be referring to a future time beyond the time that this Psalm was written, pointing to Christ and the crucifixion, which was for the salvation of mankind.

I’d like to point out, that in John 4, after speaking of having meat to eat, Jesus continues to speak symbolically and immediately explains what He means by speaking of the Samaritan woman’s testimony. This was not done in John chapter 6. I still contend he let those who could not bear His words, leave Him. He repeated His words to eat His flesh and drink His blood 3 times.

I almost didn’t mention John chapter 6 because I am not trying to argue a point at the moment.

If you can find plausibility in my meaning of Jesus’ words, “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?” through this demonstration, then it might be safe for me to assume you agree with my suggestion of why He said this on the cross? This would mean you have a “new” meaning, or interpretation, of why He said this. This interpretation was not mine, but an interpretation I learned from the Church, specifically the early Church fathers.

In St. Thomas Aquinas’ Catena Aurea, he refers to a homily from [St. John Chrysostom](St. John Chrysostom). (I am only providing links to validate that I have not pulled anything from out of mid-air. The Catena alone is almost 600 pages. )

Chrys.: He uttered this word of prophecy, that He might bear witness to the very last hour to the
Old Testament, and that they might see that He honours the Father, and is not against God. And
therefore too, He used the Hebrew tongue, that what He said might be intelligible to them.

It was quite by accident during a Bible study did I learn of Psalms 22 and knew this to be the prophecy that St. John Chrysostom was referring too as I was doing some reading and research to respond in this thread.

Please do not take this demonstration offensively as that is not my intention. I merely wanted to try and demonstrate to you some reasoning as to why we cannot disregard the teachings of the early Church fathers or their interpretations as we seek to understand God, or interpret His scriptures. The Holy Spirit guides or speaks to us, but let us not forget an old saying, God works in mysterious ways.

I feel confident that you have fellow Christians you study the Bible with or discuss the Bible with that helps form your interpretations. Are these not also interpretations of “man”. (I use quotation marks to emphazie the term man as it refers to mankind and does not exclude women.) Catholics form our interpretations in the same way, with the only difference that I can see between us, to include interpretations of Christians of the past, or as we’ve referred to them, the early Church fathers. There were many great Christians throughout history that we can learn a lot from. This is why I find history an important ingredient to our approach to the Bible and following Christ.

At this time, I wish to apologize for some of my posts which were intended, on my part, only to win a point in our disussion. That should never be a part of our sharing of the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ. Again, I apologize for any un-charitability displayed on my part.

I wish also, to thank you for this discussion which has caused me to pray, read, research and reflect much on our Lord and His truths that light our path to God the Father. (I feel confident you can see this is evident by the length of some of my posts. )

It is my sincere hope that we can continue our disussion unified, as we are connected through Jesus Christ, despite any obvious differences that we may see.

Now, with my most recent hopes and thoughts as stated above, I am sincerely interested in knowing what you thought of Scott Hahn’s writing on the fourth cup and this demonstration of what Christ meant in His words from the cross.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[brkn1]

It’s evident you don’t realize that building up to the crucifixion Jesus was celebrating the Passover with his apostles. Christ skipped a very important part of the Passover feast that He held off on until he was on the cross.

Please read this one page article on the Passover to understand what was happening and what Jesus meant when He said, “It is finished”. This article was written by former Calvinist theologian, Scott Hahn.

You will also see what Jesus meant when He prayed, (Mat 26:39) “And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

May the peace of the Lord be with you.
Prodigal Son1

I found Scott Hahn’s article to be unconvincing, as you would expect.
There is the confusing of the word “sacrifice”, such as “sacrifice of praise, etc.”, with the one and only redemptive sacrifice of Jesus on Calvary.

The transformation of the Passover feast into the New Covenant vow by Jesus is true, but there is a problem when you consider that Jesus was never actually physically eaten in either, unless you are talking in a symbolic or spiritual sense. All the sacrifices before the cross were symbolic or typical of Jesus, as they looked forward to the True Sacrifice. They were temporarily effective if obeyed according to God’s ordinances. The critical requirement that blood be shed for the remission of sin was always fulfilled. A “bloodless” sacrifice is never indicated in scripture to remit sin. We have to believe in and accept the bloody sacrifice that Jesus performed to be saved by God.

Jesus will always be that Lamb “as it had been slain,” which is described in (Rev. 5:6), but do not forget that the same verse also describes the Lamb as "having seven horns (complete Divine power) and seven eyes (Divine all-knowingness) of God’s Spirit.
Jesus is finished with His perfect saving work on the cross.
Jesus is our High Priest that mediates with the Father to cleanse and strengthen His sheep and little lambs in the Beloved.
Jesus does not suffer in this role anymore as a “present sacrifice”. That redemptive work is finished.

 

[anthony022071]

[brkn1]

I agree that there is no need for the sacrifices of the Jewish law.
There is the need for the shedding of blood for the remission of sins though. That happened when Jesus died for our sins “once for all”.

And that is all that Paul meant by “once for all” sacrifice. He was talking about the Jewish blood sacrifices,not the Christian sacrifice of the mass,in which we participate in Christ’s blood.

We receive that remission once we accept and believe in Jesus and what He did for us at Calvary.

We receive remmision for sins when we confess our sins and ask for mercy. Believing and being forgiven are two different things. As James said,even the demons believe.

When Jesus said, “It is finished!”, that was it. There is no further sacrifice of any sort that can remit our sins.

Christ’s sacrifice does not by itself remit our sins. We still have to repent. The sacrifice of the mass is an act of repentance and of praise,and a participation in the sacrifice that Christ made.

The old Jewish system of sacrificially shedding animal blood, as a temporary method instituted by God, was abolished at Christ’s death. The veil of the temple being ripped from top to bottom signified that abolishment.
Jesus’ one perfect and complete sacrifice did it all. His precious once-shed blood is sufficient for all eternity.
There is no need for adding more to that sacrifice on anyone else’s part. Something perfect and complete would be ruined by any additions.

St. Paul did not think it was sufficient for the remission of sins.

Colossians 1:24
“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh and I complete what is lacking in Christ’s affliction for the sake of his body, that is, the church.”

1 Corinthians 15:1-2
“Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand. Through it you are also being saved,if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.”

We can not participate in the actual sacrifice with Jesus.

Then why did Jesus tell his disciples “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me” (Mark 8:34). And why would he offer his body and blood to his disciples to consume?

And why did Paul say “This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.” (2 Timothy 2:11-12)

We are not the required perfect sacrifice as Jesus was/is.

Christ requires us to try to be perfect. “So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5;48)

To try to become perfect by following his commandments is indeed a sacrifice.

It has to be a perfect sacrifice or the Father would not have accepted it. We would ruin the sacrifice if we were included. Jesus had to be our substitute to make it work. Jesus being our substitute means we are not a part of the actual sacrifice. That is what is meant by substitute.

The sacrifice already happened,so it cannot be ruined by our participation. If we have no participation in it,then we are not redeemed by it.

 

[brkn1]

[brkn1]

And that is all that Paul meant by “once for all” sacrifice. He was talking about the Jewish blood sacrifices,not the Christian sacrifice of the mass,in which we participate in Christ’s blood.

Paul was talking about the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, when he said “once (for all)” in (Heb. 10:10)
In (Heb. 9:12), Jesus is described as having obtained eternal redemption “by His own blood He entered ONCE into the holy place,…”
In (Heb. 7:27), Jesus is described as having only sacrificed “ONCE, when He offered up Himself.”
It is clear that your claim for the phrase “once for all” does not apply the way you tried to apply it.

St. Paul did not think it was sufficient for the remission of sins.

Remission of sins can only come by the shedding of blood: " And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without the shedding of blood is NO remission." (Heb. 9:22)

The sacrifice already happened,so it cannot be ruined by our participation. If we have no participation in it,then we are not redeemed by it.

If the sacrifice already happened, then we can not be a sacrificial participant either. We can only receive the result of that sacrifice, since Jesus already ONCE paid the full price as our Kinsman Redeemer. There is no further price on our part that will redeem us, as some mistakenly believe. Our true belief and acceptance of that gift of salvation happens when the Holy Spirit brings us into the Beloved according to God’s will, not our will. “Which are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:13)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Some of you have contended Christ spoke symbolically throughout this thread. Are you saying it is symbolic in it’s entirety or that we should eat bread and drink wine in remembrance of Him?

The reason I ask is, if you think it was symbolic in it’s entirety, why did Christ ask we do this in commemoration/remebrance of Him? If your contention is that we should eat bread and drink wine that is only symbolic of His body and His Blood and not His actual presence, I’d like to ask how many times you do this? (It appears to me below, that Christ intended for this to be done often.)

Also, please explain why the necessity of one examining, or proving, themself so as to avoid receiving Him unworthily?

In verse 28 below, it appears these are instructions for others to celebrate the Eucharist. Let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. Who is letting him eat the bread and drink of the chalice? Who is being instructed to let a man prove himself? Who is the man proving himself too before eating the bread and drinking the chalice?

What does verse 29 mean when it says, “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord”? Why does it say body of the Lord if the Lord meant spiritually?

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread,
1Co 11:24 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me.
1Co 11:25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.
1Co 11:27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man prove himself: **and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. **
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[anthony022071]

[brkn1]

Paul was talking about the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, when he said “once (for all)” in (Heb. 10:10)
In (Heb. 9:12), Jesus is described as having obtained eternal redemption “by His own blood He entered ONCE into the holy place,…”
In (Heb. 7:27), Jesus is described as having only sacrificed “ONCE, when He offered up Himself.”
It is clear that your claim for the phrase “once for all” does not apply the way you tried to apply it.

Jesus’ death on the cross was the fulfillment of the Jewish blood sacrifices. That is all that St. Paul was talking about when he said “once for all”. He sacrificed his body up to the Father once on earth,but in heaven he always offers up the sacrifices to the Father.

Remission of sins can only come by the shedding of blood: " And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without the shedding of blood is NO remission." (Heb. 9:22)

Yes,Jesus has shed his blood once for all,for the remission of sins. When a priest absolves the sins of a man who confesses,it is in the name of Christ. This power was given to the apostles by Christ. Now if we are justified by faith alone,then Christ would not have given them this power. There would have been no need for it. St. Paul records that he absolved the sins of a man who had committed incest,and had him do penance.

If the sacrifice already happened, then we can not be a sacrificial participant either.

That doesn’t follow. Jesus commanded his disciples to consume his body,“which will be given up for you”,and his blood,“which will be shed for you”. So he was clearly talking about participation in his passion. To consume his body and blood is to participate in him. Likewise,he said that anyone who would be his disciple must take up his cross. That is a participation in his commandments.

We can only receive the result of that sacrifice, since Jesus already ONCE paid the full price as our Kinsman Redeemer.

We do not receive eternal salvation immediately from his sacrifice. What we receive is grace,in the form of the Holy Spirit. Grace is divine assistance to persevere in the faith,which means fulfilling the commandments. We will not be judged worthy of eternal salvation by faith alone,but by our works,as is clear from Matthew 25,31-46, And we are not justified by faith alone:
“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2,24

There is no further price on our part that will redeem us, as some mistakenly believe. Our true belief and acceptance of that gift of salvation happens when the Holy Spirit brings us into the Beloved according to God’s will, not our will. “Which are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:13)

We are only redeemed in Christ,by participating in his divine nature and remaining with him. He does not redeem us in an external manner,as with a legal declaration. Nothing about God is impersonal,and nothing about our salvation is impersonal.
If our own good works have nothing to do with our redemption in Christ,then the commandments have no saving power,but are null and void,and unnecessary.

 

[anthony022071]

Edited:

He sacrificed his body up to the Father once on earth,but in heaven he always offers up to the Father the sacrifices of those who follow him.

“Present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God - what is good and acceptable and perfect.” (Rom. 12:1)

“That I may know him (Christ) and the power of his Resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead” (Phil. 3,10-11)

 

[brkn1]

Edited:

“That I may know him (Christ) and the power of his Resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead” (Phil. 3,10-11)

I chose these verses to point out where our salvation is not based on our own works.
It appears at first glance to support a works-based salvation, but it needs the verse before it to dismiss such thoughts.
“And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.” (Phil. 3:9)
It should be clear that our own works of righteousness will count for nothing (dung) as far as our salvation is concerned. Being found in Jesus, “which is of God by faith” is what saves us.
True faith will make us want to know Him more and cause us to do good works of faith, but those good works have no part in saving us. Jesus did that redemptive work and paid the bill in full. We can not add anything to a fully paid bill. Jesus did it all.

 

[trustinyou]

I’m leaning toward accepting the literal body and blood argument, but am still unsure. I’d hate to have Jesus tell me on the last day that it was only symbolic, and that I had been committing idolatry.

It’s a problem with my conscience, so I’m careful not to embrace it fully without knowing for sure.

Have you ever thought of going to Eucharist Adoration?..I challenge you to go to a catholic church that has Eucharist Adoration and just sit there and pray awhile,then go to a protestant church that has none and sit there…let us know what happens…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I chose these verses to point out where our salvation is not based on our own works.
It appears at first glance to support a works-based salvation, but it needs the verse before it to dismiss such thoughts.
“And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.” (Phil. 3:9)
It should be clear that our own works of righteousness will count for nothing (dung) as far as our salvation is concerned. Being found in Jesus, “which is of God by faith” is what saves us.
True faith will make us want to know Him more and cause us to do good works of faith, but those good works have no part in saving us. Jesus did that redemptive work and paid the bill in full. We can not add anything to a fully paid bill. Jesus did it all.

Jas 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
Jas 2:15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:
Jas 2:16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
Jas 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
Jas 2:18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
**Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
**Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
**Jas 2:22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect? **
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
**Jas 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only? **

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
Php 2:13 **For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will. **

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
Eph 2:9 Not of works, that no man may glory.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Gal 5:4 You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we in spirit, by faith, wait for the hope of justice.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by Charity.

Rom 2:2 For we know that the judgment of God is, according to truth, against them that do such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them who do such things and dost the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and patience and longsuffering? Knowest thou not that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance?
Rom 2:5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works.
Rom 2:7 To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But to them that are contentious and who obey not the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.

I don’t know how the subject got changed to faith or faith and works. I don’t mind myself, I just fail to see that when I brought up the authority of the Bible was any different. Is anyone going to address my questions in post 206 concerning the Real Presence?

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[brkn1]

Some of you have contended Christ spoke symbolically throughout this thread. Are you saying it is symbolic in it’s entirety or that we should eat bread and drink wine in remembrance of Him?

The reason I ask is, if you think it was symbolic in it’s entirety, why did Christ ask we do this in commemoration/remebrance of Him? If your contention is that we should eat bread and drink wine that is only symbolic of His body and His Blood and not His actual presence, I’d like to ask how many times you do this? (It appears to me below, that Christ intended for this to be done often.)

Also, please explain why the necessity of one examining, or proving, themself so as to avoid receiving Him unworthily?

In verse 28 below, it appears these are instructions for others to celebrate the Eucharist. Let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. Who is letting him eat the bread and drink of the chalice? Who is being instructed to let a man prove himself? Who is the man proving himself too before eating the bread and drinking the chalice?

What does verse 29 mean when it says, “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord”? Why does it say body of the Lord if the Lord meant spiritually?

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread,
1Co 11:24 And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me.
1Co 11:25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.
1Co 11:27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

The breaking of bread is not just a symbolic remembrance of Jesus. There is a spiritual Presence of Jesus that is enhanced by the fact that it is done in communion with others. One of the main reasons Jesus instituted this communion of the body and blood of Christ was to bring fellow believers together in His Name. There is a special blessing that comes to those who do so in true faith and thankful remembrance towards Jesus and the Father.
Those who celebrate the Last Supper with insincerity (unworthily) are insulting God by doing so. It would be the same as saying that you do not value what God did for you, when you take it lightly. Those in the early church, who did this, were subject to physical sickness and death as a result. There would likely be many more today that suffered so, if the same standards were applied as strongly today.
The term “breaking of bread” also symbolizes sharing, which is what we do when we have communion in remembrance of the Lord Jesus and what He did to redeem us.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The breaking of bread is not just a symbolic remembrance of Jesus. There is a spiritual Presence of Jesus that is enhanced by the fact that it is done in communion with others. One of the main reasons Jesus instituted this communion of the body and blood of Christ was to bring fellow believers together in His Name. There is a special blessing that comes to those who do so in true faith and thankful remembrance towards Jesus and the Father.
Those who celebrate the Last Supper with insincerity (unworthily) are insulting God by doing so. It would be the same as saying that you do not value what God did for you, when you take it lightly. Those in the early church, who did this, were subject to physical sickness and death as a result. There would likely be many more today that suffered so, if the same standards were applied as strongly today.
The term “breaking of bread” also symbolizes sharing, which is what we do when we have communion in remembrance of the Lord Jesus and what He did to redeem us.

Thanks for clearing that up on your part. How many times, in a year, does your church celebrate the “breaking of bread”? And, I know your profile shows you as non-denominational, what is the name of your church? (I’m just asking to extend my knowledge of some of the different faiths in the world. )

What about my questions on the verses from I Corinthians 11:28? Who is being instructed to let a man prove himself, same as who is being instructed to let him eat the bread and drink of the Chalice? To me, it sounds as if the Church is being told to let a man prove himself before receiving communion.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[anthony022071]

I chose these verses to point out where our salvation is not based on our own works.
It appears at first glance to support a works-based salvation, but it needs the verse before it to dismiss such thoughts.
“And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.” (Phil. 3:9)

 

[brkn1]

[brkn1]

Jesus’ death on the cross was the fulfillment of the Jewish blood sacrifices. That is all that St. Paul was talking about when he said “once for all”. He sacrificed his body up to the Father once on earth,but in heaven he always offers up the sacrifices to the Father.

Yes,Jesus has shed his blood once for all,for the remission of sins. When a priest absolves the sins of a man who confesses,it is in the name of Christ. This power was given to the apostles by Christ. Now if we are justified by faith alone,then Christ would not have given them this power. There would have been no need for it. St. Paul records that he absolved the sins of a man who had committed incest,and had him do penance.

That doesn’t follow. Jesus commanded his disciples to consume his body,“which will be given up for you”,and his blood,“which will be shed for you”. So he was clearly talking about participation in his passion. To consume his body and blood is to participate in him. Likewise,he said that anyone who would be his disciple must take up his cross. That is a participation in his commandments.

We do not receive eternal salvation immediately from his sacrifice. What we receive is grace,in the form of the Holy Spirit. Grace is divine assistance to persevere in the faith,which means fulfilling the commandments. We will not be judged worthy of eternal salvation by faith alone,but by our works,as is clear from Matthew 25,31-46, And we are not justified by faith alone:
“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” James 2,24

We are only redeemed in Christ,by participating in his divine nature and remaining with him. He does not redeem us in an external manner,as with a legal declaration. Nothing about God is impersonal,and nothing about our salvation is impersonal.
If our own good works have nothing to do with our redemption in Christ,then the commandments have no saving power,but are null and void,and unnecessary.

Your theology does not line up with salvation as described by Paul in (Ephesians 2:8-9):

8.“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God:”
9." NOT of works, lest any man should boast."

It is extremely clear that we are not saved by works in these verses.

James makes it clear that a faith without works is not necessarily a saving faith. He also points out that good works will visibly perfect and justify a man before other men as having saving faith, but James never says that works save a man. Being visibly justified is not the same as being saved.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Your theology does not line up with salvation as described by Paul in (Ephesians 2:8-9):

8.“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God:”
9." NOT of works, lest any man should boast."

It is extremely clear that we are not saved by works in these verses.

James makes it clear that a faith without works is not necessarily a saving faith. He also points out that good works will visibly perfect and justify a man before other men as having saving faith, but James never says that works save a man. Being visibly justified is not the same as being saved.

Reads abit differently if you include verse 10. Sounds like we are to walk in God’s work, or simply put, do God’s work.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

You say nothing of all the scriptures I provided saying faith and works in post number 211?

I provided a dozen or so, give or take, verses clearly stating faith and works in Romans and Galatians, also written by Paul, and some very clear verses from the book of James. I can post some more concerning judgement according to deeds if you wish.

Jas 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

If someone has dead faith, where will it get them?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?

Jas 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

To me that sounds pretty clear. Am I missing something?

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Your theology does not line up with salvation as described by Paul in (Ephesians 2:8-9):

8.“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God:”
9." NOT of works, lest any man should boast."

It is extremely clear that we are not saved by works in these verses.

James makes it clear that a faith without works is not necessarily a saving faith. He also points out that good works will visibly perfect and justify a man before other men as having saving faith, but James never says that works save a man. Being visibly justified is not the same as being saved.

I couldn’t sleep so I decided to provide you the extra verses I mentioned in my previous post.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

2Co 11:15 So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

1Pe 1:17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.

Col 3:23 Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men,
Col 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ.
Col 3:25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.

Mat 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 19:16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?”
Mat 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Joh 14:21 He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I couldn’t sleep so I decided to provide you the extra verses I mentioned in my previous post.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

2Co 11:15 So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

1Pe 1:17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.

Col 3:23 Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men,
Col 3:24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ.
Col 3:25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.

Mat 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mat 19:16 And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?”
Mat 19:17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Joh 14:21 He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

**Wow, good posts of scripture. Grace, Faith, works? Yes It is by the grace of God that we are saved. But what is one to DO (works) in order to recieve this grace? Jesus said baptise in order to enter into the kingdom of God, this is a work by the Church, and an ACT (work) of the believer to recieve this merciful gift of Grace from God, that Jesus commanded, not asked Peter and his apostles to do. Jesus commanded to eat and drink his body and blood, this is an act (work) for the believer in order to have eternal life, etc.

Grace is freely given to those with faith, Grace is not earned. For one to accept Jesus as his personal savior, is making an act (work) in order to recieve Jesus in the profession of faith. This is not to be confused with baptism which allows entery into the kingdom of God. Yes the act (work) or profession of faith in Jesus did and does bring healing to the soul, but Jesus commands all be baptised inorder to enter into the kingdom of God.

The difference here is timing. For one to be saved, has to be baptised. After baptism, is what confuses the grace when applied freely to the christian doing the works of God. God gives us the grace of faith, in order to obey his command to eat and drink. To obey God’s command one has to take an action, this is a work that gives the already believer grace to have eternal life. The work or action is the movement of the believer to grow from grace to grace. The idea that no one has to work out their salvation with fear and trembling goes against scripture and apostolic teaching.

Again timing, the time for one to recieve the gift of salvation is through baptism, which is freely given on the act of faith, but baptism is a work into the awaiting saving grace of God. The time to grow in grace to grace, the already saved soul obeys the commands of Jesus inorder to live in grace in his vocation, be it Marriage, Holy orders or single.

It is at this time where more is given and more is expected. For the believer to live out his Christian calling from God, has to work out his salvation, run the race as St. Paul states, to do the works of God as grace is given to the one who acts; (works) on the commands of Jesus to eat and drink his body and blood in order to have eternal life. But in these works one is already a child in the kingdom of God in order to remain faithful grace is freely given not earned. For a believer does not do the works of God such as Charity, obedience, Love to attain salvation, the believer does the works,because he/she loves the Father, and does not want to lose the Father. Catholics do not fear God as a slave fears an evil master, Cathoilcs have a fear of losing God, that is why Catholics are doing the works of God, because Jesus commands us to observe and obey all the things he revealed to the apostles.**

 

[brkn1]

Nobody can give a bible verse that says, “Our works save us.”
There is no such verse.
There are verses which say that our works do NOT save us.