Many Protestants argue "How can this man give us his flesh to eat."

[brkn1]

Every miracle that Jesus performed was verifiable by at least one of our physical senses.
The first miracle was the water being changed into wine. The water actually turned into wine as the governor of the feast verified.

There is no physical sense that can verify that the bread and wine has turned into the physical body and blood of Jesus. That would make this miracle the only one that could not be verified by any physical sense.

The eucharist has never been called a miracle by any of the gospel or NT writers. Other miracles were identified as such, unless it was obvious without identification.

If it really is the miracle that the RCC claims, then why can’t a priest perform other “miracles”?

 

[Ronald_E]

Every miracle that Jesus performed was verifiable by at least one of our physical senses.
The first miracle was the water being changed into wine. The water actually turned into wine as the governor of the feast verified.

There is no physical sense that can verify that the bread and wine has turned into the physical body and blood of Jesus. That would make this miracle the only one that could not be verified by any physical sense.

The eucharist has never been called a miracle by any of the gospel or NT writers. Other miracles were identified as such, unless it was obvious without identification.

If it really is the miracle that the RCC claims, then why can’t a priest perform other “miracles”?

We cannot experience God through the physical senses, yet we believe that God exists. The miracles were signs to show us that there is a life that exists beyond the senses and Jesus is leading us to that life through the sacraments which are administered by those who have received their power to administer these sacraments from their connection going back to the apostles.
When Jesus breathed on the apostles after His resurrection He gave them all power in Heaven and on earth. His breath was not seen but the act was and it changed them completely.
This is the foundation of the Catholic faith and the priesthood in our faith.

 

[ibkc]

Nobody can give a bible verse that says, “Our works save us.”
There is no such verse.
There are verses which say that our works do NOT save us.

That is a straw man argument, because Catholics do not claim that works save us. The Catholic assertion is that both faith and works are necessary, and Scripture amply supports this. All you have to do is look at the posts above to see this.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Every miracle that Jesus performed was verifiable by at least one of our physical senses.
The first miracle was the water being changed into wine. The water actually turned into wine as the governor of the feast verified.

There is no physical sense that can verify that the bread and wine has turned into the physical body and blood of Jesus. That would make this miracle the only one that could not be verified by any physical sense.

The eucharist has never been called a miracle by any of the gospel or NT writers. Other miracles were identified as such, unless it was obvious without identification.

If it really is the miracle that the RCC claims, then why can’t a priest perform other “miracles”?

The miracle of the Eucharist is a miracle from Jesus. We’ve been showing Christ’s instructions from John 6. See below, they ask the Lord what sign He does He do that they may see and believe. This is where the Lord preludes His instructions of the Eucharist.

Joh 6:30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see, and believe you? What work do you perform?
Joh 6:31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
Joh 6:32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world.”
Joh 6:34 They said to him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.

Read our Lord’s prayer intentions of John 17, the whole chapter. This prayer is for His apostles. Below is a small excerpt.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
Joh 17:19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
Joh 17:20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,

Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.”
Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

Joh 5:39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;
Joh 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Your question about priests is not realistic according to scriptures or history. All men have different levels of faith, yet I’ve never heard of men moving mountains through their faith, no matter what church they belong too. Didn’t Peter fall in to the water when he walked out to our Lord? Didn’t Thomas doubt Christ had risen? Yet, these were two of His apostles.

I can provide scriptures that show instructions for selecting men to fill positions of the Church if swaying the discussion towards that subject is acceptable

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[brkn1]

That is a straw man argument, because Catholics do not claim that works save us. The Catholic assertion is that both faith and works are necessary, and Scripture amply supports this. All you have to do is look at the posts above to see this.

How is that a straw argument if I can produce verses that say it is by grace that we are saved and no more of works? (Romans 11:6)

(Ephesians 2:8-9) “For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
NOT of works, lest any man boast.”

I do not see the necessity of works in those verses.
Please point out the Scripture that “amply” refutes those verses.

 

[brkn1]

Your question about priests is not realistic according to scriptures or history. All men have different levels of faith, yet I’ve never heard of men moving mountains through their faith, no matter what church they belong too. Didn’t Peter fall in to the water when he walked out to our Lord? Didn’t Thomas doubt Christ had risen? Yet, these were two of His apostles.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

Peter did walk for a moment before starting to sink.
Thomas did doubt, but there was no miracle involved with his believing. Jesus was plainly there physically to change Thomas’ mind.
If the priest’s level of faith is necessary to make the elements “real”, then you might often not actually have the “Real Presence” as you assume in the Eucharist.

 

[ibkc]

How is that a straw argument if I can produce verses that say it is by grace that we are saved and no more of works? (Romans 11:6)

(Ephesians 2:8-9) “For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
NOT of works, lest any man boast.”

I do not see the necessity of works in those verses.

Please see AGAIN this post by Prodigal Son 1. For every one or two verse that might appear to say works are unnecessary if creatively interpreted, there are plenty of others which quite specifically say otherwise.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

How is that a straw argument if I can produce verses that say it is by grace that we are saved and no more of works? (Romans 11:6)

(Ephesians 2:8-9) “For by grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
NOT of works, lest any man boast.”

I do not see the necessity of works in those verses.
Please point out the Scripture that “amply” refutes those verses.

I have offered many verses stating faith and works (See posts 211 and 217), not specifically in the exact words as you state them, but worded to have the same effect. What does it mean to have “dead” faith?

Jas 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

I have also addressed Ephesians 2:8-9. Add verse 10 and explain what is being said.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

We are his workmanship, created in Jesus in good works, which God has prepared that we should walk in them. This tells me we are to walk in good works.

I have also provided several verses stating a man is judged or justified by his deeds. Deeds are a result of your works, good or bad. (Again, see posts 211 and 217) Refusing to acknowledge those scriptures makes me think you are only willing to accept some scriptures, while others are not important if they don’t support your belief.

On your expectation of priest being able to perform “miracles”, are there men in your church performing miracles? Are you saying when Jesus blessed the bread and wine and told His apostles, this is my body, this is my blood, He didn’t have the power to perform a miracle?

Men, born of original sin, have limitations on their ability to perform miracles. Peter as you seem to partially agree was limited. As, I explained, Jesus/God the Father/Holy Spirit is performing the miracle of the Eucharist. This is something you left out of the quote you used to respond to. Do we need to discuss the meaning of “the faith of a mustard seed”? Being a priest, does not make them anymore than they are, men. Men who have dedicated their life to serving God. Men ordained by the Church as taught by Christ and His apostles. (I can show you how the hierarchy of the Church is to be chosen, in scriptures, if you wish.)

There are many points being discussed that you are avoiding, ignoring or evidently have no answer to. There are many posts where you only address a few of the questions presented. How do you expect us to take your points as valid when you pick and choose what you’re willing to respond too?

You agreed it was our Lord’s instructions to “do this in remembrance of him”. I pointed out it says often and asked how often you do this at your church. I also asked what church you belonged too. Does being non-denominational mean you don’t belong to a church? Are there doctrines or practices of your church you think might be hard to defend if you told us which church it is? I’m sorry, but unanswered, it leaves much to be speculated as if there is something to hide.

I am proud of the Church I belong too. I belong to the holy Catholic Church.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[FdeS2]

Has anyone addressed the numerous Old Testament “preparations” and “types” of the Eucharist, later to be fulfilled and perfected by Jesus at the Last Supper? I would like to point out some of these, seeing as so many people have no idea that they exist…

Genesis 14 contains an account of Abram’s encounter with a priest called Melchizedek, and of him it is said, “Mel-chiz’edek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was priest of God Most High.” Here is the first bread and wine sacrifice in the Bible, offered by the priest of the Most High God. This seems to be fairly familiar to any Catholics out there, I imagine. Still, there is more:

Exodus 12, the Passover is instituted. So much Eucharistic connection can be found here… “Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old…They shall eat the flesh…” (Exodus 12: 5,8). So a young, unblemished (pure) male lamb, will be killed, and his blood will be shed to save his people from death (death in sin, in Jesus’ case). Additionally, as part of the Passover, the lamb’s bones were not to be broken, just as Jesus’ bones are not broken at the crucifixion. All of the lamb was to be eaten, his entire body. Familiar…

In Exodus 25, the Lord is instructing the Israelites on how the Sanctuary is to be to built, and what is to be contained therein. Starting in Exodus 25: 23 (and continuing through verse 30), the instructions for a table are given. The interesting part of this passage, the beautiful part, is that it says, “And you shall make its plates and dishes for incense, and its flagons and bowls with which to pour out libations; of pure gold you shall make them. And you shall set the bread of the Presence [the bread of the Face, the shewbread] on the table before me always” (Exodus 25: 29-30). The golden flagon, or chalice, has libations (or wine) inside it, and the golden plates and/or bowls have bread, but specifically the bread of the Presence of God (also translated as the bread of the Face of God or shewbread). Sounds quite familiar to any Catholics who read it, and found in the second book of the Bible!

“The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind, ‘You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchiz’edek’” (Psalms 110:4). Such was the Lord’s promise to David, who’s sons were priests as well according to 2 Samuel 8:18. After David brought the Ark of the Covenant into Jeru-Salem after having conquered it, he offered sacrifices. One of these sacrifices was called the Todah, or thank offering (sidenote; Eucharist means “thanksgiving”). You can find references to the Todah in Leviticus 7 first, but David brought it to prominence. In Chronicles 16: 4-6, it is said of David that, “he appointed certain of the Levites as ministers before the ark of the LORD, to invoke, to thank, and to praise the LORD, the God of Israel… [and the priests were to worship] continually, before the ark of the covenant of God.” Just as today, when the Eucharist is celebrated continually all over the world every day, David instituted the Todah to be continually celebrated. On only one day of the year was the Todah not to be celebrated (see Pesiqta, I, p. 159, ancient rabbinic tradition), just as Catholics do not consecrate the Eucharist on only one day of the year.

As one can see, the Lord was preparing us for the fulfillment of these sacrifices since early in time. One need only open one’s eyes to see the truth looking back at them.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Has anyone addressed the numerous Old Testament “preparations” and “types” of the Eucharist, later to be fulfilled and perfected by Jesus at the Last Supper? I would like to point out some of these, seeing as so many people have no idea that they exist…

Genesis 14 contains an account of Abram’s encounter with a priest called Melchizedek, and of him it is said, “Mel-chiz’edek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was priest of God Most High.” Here is the first bread and wine sacrifice in the Bible, offered by the priest of the Most High God. This seems to be fairly familiar to any Catholics out there, I imagine. Still, there is more:

Exodus 12, the Passover is instituted. So much Eucharistic connection can be found here… “Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old…They shall eat the flesh…” (Exodus 12: 5,8). So a young, unblemished (pure) male lamb, will be killed, and his blood will be shed to save his people from death (death in sin, in Jesus’ case). Additionally, as part of the Passover, the lamb’s bones were not to be broken, just as Jesus’ bones are not broken at the crucifixion. All of the lamb was to be eaten, his entire body. Familiar…

In Exodus 25, the Lord is instructing the Israelites on how the Sanctuary is to be to built, and what is to be contained therein. Starting in Exodus 25: 23 (and continuing through verse 30), the instructions for a table are given. The interesting part of this passage, the beautiful part, is that it says, “And you shall make its plates and dishes for incense, and its flagons and bowls with which to pour out libations; of pure gold you shall make them. And you shall set the bread of the Presence [the bread of the Face, the shewbread] on the table before me always” (Exodus 25: 29-30). The golden flagon, or chalice, has libations (or wine) inside it, and the golden plates and/or bowls have bread, but specifically the bread of the Presence of God (also translated as the bread of the Face of God or shewbread). Sounds quite familiar to any Catholics who read it, and found in the second book of the Bible!

“The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind, ‘You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchiz’edek’” (Psalms 110:4). Such was the Lord’s promise to David, who’s sons were priests as well according to 2 Samuel 8:18. After David brought the Ark of the Covenant into Jeru-Salem after having conquered it, he offered sacrifices. One of these sacrifices was called the Todah, or thank offering (sidenote; Eucharist means “thanksgiving”). You can find references to the Todah in Leviticus 7 first, but David brought it to prominence. In Chronicles 16: 4-6, it is said of David that, “he appointed certain of the Levites as ministers before the ark of the LORD, to invoke, to thank, and to praise the LORD, the God of Israel… [and the priests were to worship] continually, before the ark of the covenant of God.” Just as today, when the Eucharist is celebrated continually all over the world every day, David instituted the Todah to be continually celebrated. On only one day of the year was the Todah not to be celebrated (see Pesiqta, I, p. 159, ancient rabbinic tradition), just as Catholics do not consecrate the Eucharist on only one day of the year.

As one can see, the Lord was preparing us for the fulfillment of these sacrifices since early in time. One need only open one’s eyes to see the truth looking back at them.

Thanks FdeS2,

I don’t believe those had been brought up yet. I did bring up (Mal 1:11) For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

and had mentioned similarities in Psa 22:26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever!

That’s as far as I went into the OT.

Thanks again!

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[FdeS2]

Thanks FdeS2,

I don’t believe those had been brought up yet. I did bring up (Mal 1:11) For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.

and had mentioned similarities in Psa 22:26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever!

That’s as far as I went into the OT.

Thanks again!

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

You are absolutely welcome Prodigal Son1! I am only glad that I can share what I’ve learned with others

I hope this helps you, too, brkn1. :tiphat:

Yours in Christ,
Daniel

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Nobody can give a bible verse that says, “Our works save us.”
There is no such verse.
There are verses which say that our works do NOT save us.

You just so happen to believe what the Catholic church teaches. Works do not save us. Only through Jesus Christ God the father has saved humanity. I am not sure if you understand the difference of how one is saved from the works of Jesus Christ, or one who is already saved, who Jesus works through who are obedient to his commands to invite those lost ones to Jesus Christ, by his works? Here is James speaking on the same topic below.

James 2:14
6 **What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? **

15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
**So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. **18
**Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. **

19
**You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? **

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You just so happen to believe what the Catholic church teaches. Works do not save us. Only through Jesus Christ God the father has saved humanity. I am not sure if you understand the difference of how one is saved from the works of Jesus Christ, or one who is already saved, who Jesus works through who are obedient to his commands to invite those lost ones to Jesus Christ, by his works? Here is James speaking on the same topic below.

James 2:14
6 **What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? **

15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
**So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. **18
**Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. **

19
**You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? **

I was working on my study notes and found another one as well.

1Co 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[anthony022071]

[brkn1]

Your theology does not line up with salvation as described by Paul in (Ephesians 2:8-9):

8.“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God:”
9." NOT of works, lest any man should boast."

It is extremely clear that we are not saved by works in these verses.

It is clear that Paul was talking about the ritual works of Jewish law,not about the moral commandments of the law,or acts of charity,or the Christian mass.

Ephesians 14-16
For he is our peace, he who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh, abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person in place of the two, thus establishing peace,and might reconcile both with God, in one body, through the cross, putting that enmity to death by it.

Ephesians 5:1-2
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Rom. 2:13
For it is not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

James makes it clear that a faith without works is not necessarily a saving faith. He also points out that good works will visibly perfect and justify a man before other men as having saving faith, but James never says that works save a man. Being visibly justified is not the same as being saved.

James 2,24
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Quote:
Your theology does not line up with salvation as described by Paul in (Ephesians 2:8-9):

8.“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God:”
9." NOT of works, lest any man should boast."

It is extremely clear that we are not saved by works in these verses.

Luke 13
"Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able."

Now how is this possible when so many claim to have faith?

get out of your faith alone box and look at Jesus. did He not do many works of charity? therefore He commanded His Church to do the same. as for you, you dont have to do if you dont want to. As catholics we do know what the Lord has commanded us to do and we do it.

 

[brkn1]

I have offered many verses stating faith and works (See posts 211 and 217), not specifically in the exact words as you state them, but worded to have the same effect. What does it mean to have “dead” faith?

Jas 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

I have also addressed Ephesians 2:8-9. Add verse 10 and explain what is being said.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

We are his workmanship, created in Jesus in good works, which God has prepared that we should walk in them. This tells me we are to walk in good works.

I have also provided several verses stating a man is judged or justified by his deeds. Deeds are a result of your works, good or bad. (Again, see posts 211 and 217) Refusing to acknowledge those scriptures makes me think you are only willing to accept some scriptures, while others are not important if they don’t support your belief.

On your expectation of priest being able to perform “miracles”, are there men in your church performing miracles? Are you saying when Jesus blessed the bread and wine and told His apostles, this is my body, this is my blood, He didn’t have the power to perform a miracle?

Men, born of original sin, have limitations on their ability to perform miracles. Peter as you seem to partially agree was limited. As, I explained, Jesus/God the Father/Holy Spirit is performing the miracle of the Eucharist. This is something you left out of the quote you used to respond to. Do we need to discuss the meaning of “the faith of a mustard seed”? Being a priest, does not make them anymore than they are, men. Men who have dedicated their life to serving God. Men ordained by the Church as taught by Christ and His apostles. (I can show you how the hierarchy of the Church is to be chosen, in scriptures, if you wish.)

There are many points being discussed that you are avoiding, ignoring or evidently have no answer to. There are many posts where you only address a few of the questions presented. How do you expect us to take your points as valid when you pick and choose what you’re willing to respond too?

You agreed it was our Lord’s instructions to “do this in remembrance of him”. I pointed out it says often and asked how often you do this at your church. I also asked what church you belonged too. Does being non-denominational mean you don’t belong to a church? Are there doctrines or practices of your church you think might be hard to defend if you told us which church it is? I’m sorry, but unanswered, it leaves much to be speculated as if there is something to hide.

I am proud of the Church I belong too. I belong to the holy Catholic Church.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

Speculate and change the subject all you want.
You still can not explain why no writer called the breaking of bread a miracle anywhere in Scripture.

I do not demand an answer to this question as you might try to do with me as a defense. I understand why you are unable to stick to the subject, but have to always try end runs.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Speculate and change the subject all you want.
You still can not explain why no writer called the breaking of bread a miracle anywhere in Scripture.

I do not demand an answer to this question as you might try to do with me as a defense. I understand why you are unable to stick to the subject, but have to always try end runs.

I didn’t complain when the subject went to faith or faith plus works. I’ve also tried to respond to all your comments or questions.

:tsktsk:You seem to use that complaint when you cannot produce any answers.

I’m starting to feel like a “bully” and beating up on a someone weaker than myself.

At this point, I will bow out and let the others try to talk to you.

Continue seeking the truth. I meant no ill will. :hug3:

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Jon_S]

Nobody can give a bible verse that says, “Our works save us.”
There is no such verse.
There are verses which say that our works do NOT save us.

There is also a verse that says faith alone does not save us.

 

[Jon_S]

You still can not explain why no writer called the breaking of bread a miracle anywhere in Scripture.

Nowhere in Scripture is “Salvation” referred to as a miracle, yet for many of us, it most definitely is. Where is the Trinity referred to as a trinity? It’s not, but just because it is not spelled out specifically in the pages of Scripture; that does not make the statement false.

What is a miracle, anyway? I believe it is something only God can achieve, and defies what our senses tell us is possible. The Eucharist fits that definition to a “tee.”

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

For the record. I stated Jesus created the miracle of the Eucharist and, like the Apostles and early Church fathers, I believe that He did it then, and all through the ages until present time. They believed Jesus to be God who could accomplish anything and probably took it for granted that no one would question any of His works considered as miracles.

Not everything has been recorded in the Bible as some Sola Scripturists believe.

Joh 20:30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name.

May the peace of the Lord be with you all,
Prodigal Son1