Marching in the Streets

[gilliam]

Why are so many Westerners, living in mature democracies, ready to march against the toppling of a despot in Iraq but unwilling to take to the streets in support of the democratic movement in the Middle East?

Is it because many of those who will be marching in support of Saddam Hussein this month are the remnants of totalitarian groups in the West plus a variety of misinformed idealists and others blinded by anti-Americanism?

Or is it because they secretly believe that the Arabs do not deserve anything better than Saddam Hussein?

Those interested in the health of Western democracies would do well to ponder those questions.

 

[Matt25]

Do you suggest that those who opposed the invasion of Iraq support Saddam Hussein? Does that mean that those who oppose an invasion of China support the Chinese Communist Party?

 

[Richardols]

Matt25:

Do you suggest that those who opposed the invasion of Iraq support Saddam Hussein? Does that mean that those who oppose an invasion of China support the Chinese Communist Party?

And what of those Americans who don’t want the U.S. to invade Cuba or who’d like to see more trade barriers eliminated? Pro-Castro “useful idiots”?

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

hmmm, interesting thought I suppose.

For me the issue is in thinking that one can’t force democracy on a people, they must want it - what’s more they must want it badly enough to insist on it and fight for it until they get it.

I don’t think anyone needs Hussein, but more importantly, why did the people not rise against him and the many before him long ago?? We’re they hopeless or helpless or didn’t know there was another way?

By the way, the United States is a representative republic - not a complete democracy either - although there are those who would argue otherwise… I’m not too sure the current temporary government they have is the answer either - sounds like way too much being forced on them by outside countries trying to “westernize” them. Which I would imagine is going to lead to more problems…

Just my rambling thoughts…

 

[gilliam]

Rob's Wife:

hmmm, interesting thought I suppose.

For me the issue is in thinking that one can’t force democracy on a people, they must want it - what’s more they must want it badly enough to insist on it and fight for it until they get it.
.

If the Iraqis aren’t doing that now, I don’t know who is.

You know, Democrats 40 years ago would have been shouting for freedom for Iraq and Lebanon from the rooftops and on all college campuses.

Personally, I think it is extremely sad that when outspoken Democrats and other liberals post here, what we get is support for tyranny and bombing people in the streets.

sad, very, very, very sad…

 

[gilliam]

The antiwar folk have been hit hardest, of course. It’s hard to say which faction is suffering the greater mental anguish right now: the Left, domestic and foreign, for whom George W. Bush is merely a willing tool of sinister “interests” (there are no actual human beings in the lefty world-view, only Interests, Classes, Minorities, and Historical Forces), or the paleo-Right, for whom Bush is the dupe of wily Sharonists and ideological globalizers.– John Derbyshire

 

[Richardols]

gilliam:

Personally, I think it is extremely sad that when outspoken Democrats and other liberals post here, what we get is support for tyranny and bombing people in the streets.

sad, very, very, very sad…

Yeah, sad. Here I am, an orthodox Catholic and a liberal, and calling for tyranny and bombing people in the street. Of course, my tyrants are different from the tyrants the Republicans prefer.

 

[gilliam]

Richardols:

Yeah, sad. Here I am, an orthodox Catholic and a liberal, and calling for tyranny and bombing people in the street. Of course, my tyrants are different from the tyrants the Republicans prefer.

Your trying to justify your support of tyrants by saying that others do???

Seriously, if the libs in this forum support freedom, then let’s here some encouragement from them for those people putting their lives on the line in support of freedom!

 

[Richardols]

gilliam:

Your trying to justify your support of tyrants by saying that others do???

Seriously, if the libs in this forum support freedom, then let’s here some encouragement from them for those people putting their lives on the line in support of freedom!

As a Vietnam era veteran, I’ve always appreciated those who are defending our country, whether sitting in an ICBM silo, being stationed on our military posts, or manning submarines or warships around the world.

What branch of the service did you serve in, Gilliam? I was an Air Force officer, an intelligence officer who spoke Vietnamese and interrogated POWs, Hoi Chanhs, and refugees - and never by using torture!

 

[gilliam]

Richardols:

As a Vietnam era veteran, I’ve always appreciated those who are defending our country, whether sitting in an ICBM silo, being stationed on our military posts, or manning submarines or warships around the world.

What branch of the service did you serve in, Gilliam? I was an Air Force officer, an intelligence officer who spoke Vietnamese and interrogated POWs, Hoi Chanhs, and refugees - and never by using torture!

Richardo,

Good to hear that you support our troops. Now will you support them as they do their job?

I would also encourage all liberals on this forum to support the efforts of those in Iraq who are risking their lives for the freedom of their countrymen. And for those in Lebanon and throughout the world who are doing the same.

By the way, I was 4-F. My son is now in the US Army: armor, he is likely to be deployed in the Fall.

 

[Richardols]

gilliam:

Now will you support them as they do their job?

I thought that manning silos, military posts, and ships were jobs.

I would also encourage all liberals on this forum to support the efforts of those in Iraq who are risking their lives for the freedom of their countrymen.

Oh, but we do. My Congressman, the very liberal Vic Snyder, representing the 2nd District of Arkansas, is an ex-Marine and has supported our troops everywhere.

I would take exception to your statement that those in Iraq are risking their lives for us here in America. They may be liberating some Arabs, making elections possible in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc. but there’s no threat there and never was that endangered our freedoms in America. (Remember - there were no WMDs - the Administration gave up on that nonsense.)

One can oppose what the Administration did in starting that war, without opposing our troops who had no choice in implementing what Bush wanted.

By the way, I was 4-F. My son is now in the US Army: armor, he is likely to be deployed in the Fall.

Well, glad he’ll be riding in a tank and not a humvee.

 

[gilliam]

Richardols:

I thought that manning silos, military posts, and ships were jobs.

Never said they weren’t. I don’t know if I could man a silo, very close quarters down there.

Oh, but we do. My Congressman, the very liberal Vic Snyder, representing the 2nd District of Arkansas, is an ex-Marine and has supported our troops everywhere.

Cool… actually I was referring very generally and mostly to those who post on this forum.

I would take exception to your statement that those in Iraq are risking their lives for us here in America.

You misunderstand. They are risking thier lives for their freedom. We, as Americans, should support them in their endeavor. Especially since it was our country who over a very large number of years, crossing both Democratic and Republican administrations and congresses ended up getting them to this point.

As Colin Powell said, you break it, you own it. We can’t just walk away now.

Well, glad he’ll be riding in a tank and not a humvee.

me too! But they ‘dismount’ as well. Also, he might be on a stryker

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

it is extremely sad that when outspoken Democrats and other liberals post here, what we get is support for tyranny and bombing people in the streets.

sad, very, very, very sad

good grief! I’m not a democrat or a republican and my dh (who is one of the aforementioned) is laughing over my shoulder that you’d call me liberal - although name calling doesn’t change anything anyhow.

Where in my post do you see ANY reference to the support of tyranny or of bombing anyone, where in my post did you see any reference to me not supporting our troops??

I think it’s sad, very, very, very sad that a person can’t post without getting blasted with distortions and flatout lies and being smeared because they don’t say “Why of course I agree with absolutely everything you said! Sir!” Not agreeing with you wholeheartedly does not make me againt our troops or for bombing. People doing exactly that is why citizens don’t trust government leaders and the media

Yes, Iraqis are living in a hellish situation, but so are millions of other people in the world. Why aren’t we fighting to liberate everyone!? This war (which isn’t actually a “war” by definition of course because that would require some congressional backbone, but I digress.) didn’t start as a “liberation” and I doubt it will end has one either. I hope they end up at peace and democratic - but do I think they actually will? - no I don’t.

 

[Richardols]

Rob's Wife:

I hope they end up at peace and democratic - but do I think they actually will? - no I don’t.

There’s a little too much premature “Bush was right!” on this site. Conservatives mocked liberals when Bush landed on that aircraft carrier with the famous “Mission Accomplished!” sign. The war was over, we did what we set out to do. Nyah, nyah, nyah. Right. The body count really started then in earnest, and it didn’t take long for the Administration to distance itself from that victory proclamation.

Will the Middle East, given its history, rival America as a democratic haven in a few years? I think not. Maybe some gains will have been made in a few places, but even the United States took decades to achieve real democracy for all its people.

I agree with you. We can hope, but not expect very much.

 

[gilliam]

Richardols:

There’s a little too much premature “Bush was right!” on this site. .

That is probably my fault. I confess.

I could really get stung on it too, I know.

 

[aimee]

gilliam:

That is probably my fault. I confess.

I could really get stung on it too, I know.

I don’t know, the way I see it is Mission Accomplised wasn’t that the war was over but the particular mission was accomplished. And it was…I see the administration as distanceing itself from some who thought it meant the war was over. I don’t think I ever heard Pres. Bush say the war was over because of that one mission. Still, for anyone to think that there is a quick fix is sorely mistaken.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Richardols:

There’s a little too much premature “Bush was right!” on this site. Conservatives mocked liberals when Bush landed on that aircraft carrier with the famous “Mission Accomplished!” sign. The war was over, we did what we set out to do. Nyah, nyah, nyah. Right. The body count really started then in earnest, and it didn’t take long for the Administration to distance itself from that victory proclamation.

The banner referred to the Carrier’s mission, not to the war. It was put there by the Captain to congratulate his crew.

Bush proclaimed the end of major combat. That’s a military term, meaning clashes between large formations with heavy equipment. I note that the enemy has not fielded so much as a platoon of tanks since that proclomation.

“Body count” sounds like you take comfort in the death of every American. The more, the better.

Our enemies hope they can win, not on the battlefield, but in the streets of America – by dragging this thing out, and by killing more Americans. No American should give them reason to hold that hope.

 

[gilliam]

Banners that say mission accomplished are not that rare in the Navy. Also many ships hoist a broom aloft signifying “clean sweep” when all objectives are accomplished.

 

[Richardols]

vern humphrey:

The banner referred to the Carrier’s mission, not to the war. It was put there by the Captain to congratulate his crew.

You are being disingenuous. It was obvious that it was intended to signal that our mission in Iraq was accomplished. Read what the papers and Administration figures said back then. When it became apparent that the mission had not been “accomplished,” it became a local Navy thing.

“Body count” sounds like you take comfort in the death of every American. The more, the better.

How do you draw that conclusion from the use of a term that became hallowed in Vietnam (where I served)? You’d do well to go back and review Logic 101.

Our enemies hope they can win, not on the battlefield,

The essence of any guerilla action is precisely to avoid engaging a superior enemy on the battlefield.

but in the streets of America – by dragging this thing out, and by killing more Americans. No American should give them reason to hold that hope.

A war needn’t be fought exclusively on a battlefield. Even our Army has PsyWarfare units.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Richardols:

You are being disingenuous. It was obvious that it was intended to signal that our mission in Iraq was accomplished. Read what the papers and Administration figures said back then. When it became apparent that the mission had not been “accomplished,” it became a local Navy thing…

The captain of the carrier told you that personally? If not, how do you know it?

Richardols:

How do you draw that conclusion from the use of a term that became hallowed in Vietnam (where I served)? You’d do well to go back and review Logic 101…

That’s the standard meaning, established by the Command and General Staff College.

When did you graduate?

Richardols:

The essence of any guerilla action is precisely to avoid engaging a superior enemy on the battlefield…

And they are greatly aided by mindless protestors who are willing to bend the truth to make political points.

Richardols:

A war needn’t be fought exclusively on a battlefield. Even our Army has PsyWarfare units.

And the enemy has people helping them in this country. Some of them will go so far as to make up stories about how a banner on a carrier which congratulated the crew on accomplishing their mission was really proclaiming the end of the war.