T
Todd_Easton
Guest
Apparitions of saints is nothing new. See 2 Maccabees 15:11-16; Matthew 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30.
- Status
D
Della
Guest
I think the key there is what I bolded. I think we need to consider the time periods in which these apparitions took place, to whom, and why. Not all speak to us in our day/culture, but that’s all right. There are many helps to faith. Mary has the prominent role for many, but since we can now pray the Liturgy of the Hours, receive the Eucharist more frequently, and read Scripture intelligently because we have so many resources, including the internet, we have sufficient helps for our faith. This does not mean that Mary doesn’t play a large role. She intercedes for her children all the time, even when they don’t acknowledge that she does, just like many an earthly mother prays for her children–out of love.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Right. And of course, the "Catholic short-hand’ finishing of the above is that Mary does all this, for, through, and with Jesus. It is always Jesus who is the ultimate ‘focus’ of anything that is about Mary in Catholic teachings.
She came ‘first’ in that she had to be born in order for Christ to be born of her, though of course Christ was ‘before’ her in existence.
And we know Christ is coming again --the Second or ‘Last’ Coming to all humanity.
So it wouldn’t surprise me if Mary once again came first to ‘pave the way’ and remind people what they needed to be living for and thinking of --Christ.
It is very seldom that we hear the ‘whole story’ (because of course it would take chapters and chapters to tell) about any given apparition. We ‘condense it down’. Taken in context, the approved apparitions have a solid Scriptural and Christocentric focus, not a ‘Mary in place of Jesus’ focus.
As a very imperfect comparison, let’s think of a king and his mother --an earthly king of course, and the king, who has been away for many years while the prime minister has functioned in his stead (Pope) and managed all his vassals (bishops) and their people (priests and congregations), but the people have also been exposed to some neighboring countries and THEIR kings. They have intermarried, gone to the other countries games, concerts, etc. And while most things in those other countries are the same, some practices are very different.
And the people in this one country have become confused. Without their king ‘in the flesh’ to guide them, even though he has left a prime minister and given him authority, and even though the prime minister has been scrupulous in following all the king’s desires for his people, the people have been drawn ‘away’, something because they’ve been enticed, sometimes of their own free will, sometimes because they misunderstood, sometimes because they truly rejected their king.
Now the king’s mother has also been away but she finds that suddenly she has the opportunity to make a quick flight back to the country. She doesn’t have time to radio ahead, and she can’t get to the palace.
So she goes and she lands at this little pokey corner of the kingdom. And there she meets some of the people. She’s been away so long that it’s hard for them to recognize her OR to believe she’s actually there.
SO she lets them know WHO SHE IS.
“I am the mother of your king, the Queen ______, daughter of king ____, chatelaine of the Castle. Kneel to the Queen.”
(This is common royal protocol. People are supposed to kneel to the royal family. But these people don’t kneel to the prime minister any more, or their bishops. They have lost the habit. One of their neighbors makes so much fun of the ‘quaint’ practice of kneeling and so these people feel embarassed. But they HAVE to be told how to act to the Queen, because if they don’t know how to act to HER, they will ‘mess up’ when the King returns and they don’t bow to HIM. The Queen is trying to HELP these people because ultimately they are going to face her son.)
Is the queen making a big fuss about how great she is? No. She is asking the people to behave AS THEY SHOULD, and preparing them to act AS THEY SHOULD when they face her son the King.
After she has received the bows, THEN the queen goes on to speak of her son, reminding people that he IS GOING TO RETURN, asking them to start doing what they need to do to prepare themselves and the kingdom for him.
IN order to help put them at ease, she mentions that when she sees the King SHE WILL SPEAK FOR THEM. Not because she is ‘the boss’. As a motherly, queenly gesture, she lets them know that even with their faults that SHE has seen with her own eyes, she cares for them, and as the mother of the king who has the tie of blood and the filial respect of her son, she will ‘intercede’ for the people and let the king know that even if they might make a mistake or two, their hearts are in the right place. Again, the focus is ALL on the king and what is to be done for the KING, and even though the queen will out of kindness speak up for the people, the ultimate ‘decider of the fate’ will be the King, to whom all glory is due.
That’s kind of like an approved Marian apparition. She lets us know who she is (and who She is is important for her relationship to her SON), asks the people to pray and do penance, and to love God, reassures them that she will speak up on their behalf, and then she goes ‘back’ to her Son.
C
CaptFun
Guest
Acts 5:34
6 But a Pharisee in the Sanhedrin named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, respected by all the people, stood up, ordered the men to be put outside for a short time, 35 and said to them, "Fellow Israelites, be careful what you are about to do to these men. 36 Some time ago, Theudas appeared, claiming to be someone important, and about four hundred men joined him, but he was killed, and all those who were loyal to him were disbanded and came to nothing.
37 After him came Judas the Galilean at the time of the census. He also drew people after him, but he too perished and all who were loyal to him were scattered. 38 So now I tell you, have nothing to do with these men, and let them go. For if this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself.
39 But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God." They were persuaded by him.
So the Church is careful on both counts. Neither quick to affirm (prudence) nor dismiss (John 7: 24 “Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.”).
It may allow for a time an “open question” it later rules against; it may affirm as “worthy of belief” things it seemed to scrutinize with such prejudice that it might appear the Church lacked charity, faith or both.
We do well to discern the spirits. But we can scruple and err too. Because Revelation
9-17 depicts the struggle of good and evil on earth as between the dragon and the woman (and her offspring) - one might scruple that "this is no longer about God … what care I for this "woman’ or “her offspring”? And toss out the Book of Revelation - or doubt the Church for canonizing such a thing. Which would be an error (at LEAST).
“You worship a book!” Satan could say. Tempting us to scruple never to read the Bible
which points to the Lord - for fear of idolatrous book worship.
It’s not bad to remind ourselves of these things. Meanwhile, Praise Jesus! The Way, the Truth and the Life! And the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit! And thank you Mary for your part in God’s plan too.
P
Pomander
Guest
Crytic1: "After studying some of the Marian prophecies at Mejugordie, for instance, I myself was surprised that, while the prophecies of the Blessed Mother spoke of Jesus, they mostly spoke about Mary herself. "
Koineman: “Statements like this one are what make me–and probably other Protestants–concerned about what seem to be excesses in Marian devotion. In this post, you practically make devotion to the Mother equal to devotion to the Son. You tie the two so closely together that to abandon the former is to come dangerously close to abandoning the latter. Sorry, I don’t buy that, and I am not sure that the CC intends to teach that, either.”
In response to the posts above, I just wanted to comment on a thing or two, if I may. Koineman, abandoning the Mother is a step to abandoning the Son because no one can bring us to Jesus like The Blessed Mother. No one knows Jesus as she does. While not calling on her help, which is considerable, we make things more difficult for ourselves. Can we know Him without her? Sure. No one is saying that isn’t possible. But The Blessed Mother - the first Christian - who was with Jesus for many important events in His life, can help us to understand him better. Parents are like that. Maybe pray on it and see for yourself.
Also, apparitions can only occur with the consent of God; TBM refers to in several Medjugorje messages (yes, I know they aren’t approved yet, but they also are not ruled out). She says she wishes she could do more for us but that the Heavenly Father is already allowing graces by her appearing to them. To that end, the fruits of apparitions (Medjugorje, Fatima, Lourdes, etc) can only occur with the consent of God (healings, miracles, increase of faith, etc). He is allowing all of this; it is His way, through His servant Mary. He can choose anyone…St. Peter, St. John the Divine, St. John the Baptist. He chooses Mary. Consider this.
“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.” Note the God wishes here. She is not elevating herself. Why didn’t Jesus appear instead? I don’t know. But, then again, He didn’t ask me what I thought.
Crytic1, I’m not sure how many Medjugorje messages you studied, but TBM repeatedly speaks of putting Jesus first. It is not about her ego; she has flat out said that she, like us, has to pray for graces. She gives her “motherly blessing” and no more; she is not a priest and she is not her Son. Again, her part is sanctioned by Him - it cannot be otherwise. Please look at the two most recent messages:
July 25, 2012 Message to Marija
“Dear children! Today I call you to the ‘good’. Be carriers of peace and goodness in this world. Pray that God may give you the strength so that hope and pride* may always reign in your heart and life because you are God’s children and carriers of His hope to this world that is without joy in the heart, and is without a future, because it does not have its heart open to God who is your salvation. Thank you for having responded to my call.”
*this doesn’t mean pride as in the sin of pride…this was a translation issue from the Croatian text
August 02, 2012 Message to Mirjana
“Dear children, I am with you and I am not giving up. I desire to have you come to know my Son. I desire for my children to be with me in eternal life. I desire for you to feel the joy of peace and to have eternal salvation. I am praying that you may overcome human weaknesses. I am imploring my Son to give you pure hearts. My dear children, only pure hearts know how to carry a cross and know how to sacrifice for all those sinners who have offended the Heavenly Father and who, even today, offend Him, although they have not come to know Him. I am praying that you may come to know the light of true faith which comes only from prayer of pure hearts. It is then that all those who are near you will feel the love of my Son. Pray for those whom my Son has chosen to lead you on the way to salvation. May your mouth refrain from every judgment. Thank you.”
Another recent message says, “Have confidence in me and adore my Son.”
I hope this helps somehow.
P.
Koineman: “Statements like this one are what make me–and probably other Protestants–concerned about what seem to be excesses in Marian devotion. In this post, you practically make devotion to the Mother equal to devotion to the Son. You tie the two so closely together that to abandon the former is to come dangerously close to abandoning the latter. Sorry, I don’t buy that, and I am not sure that the CC intends to teach that, either.”
In response to the posts above, I just wanted to comment on a thing or two, if I may. Koineman, abandoning the Mother is a step to abandoning the Son because no one can bring us to Jesus like The Blessed Mother. No one knows Jesus as she does. While not calling on her help, which is considerable, we make things more difficult for ourselves. Can we know Him without her? Sure. No one is saying that isn’t possible. But The Blessed Mother - the first Christian - who was with Jesus for many important events in His life, can help us to understand him better. Parents are like that. Maybe pray on it and see for yourself.
Also, apparitions can only occur with the consent of God; TBM refers to in several Medjugorje messages (yes, I know they aren’t approved yet, but they also are not ruled out). She says she wishes she could do more for us but that the Heavenly Father is already allowing graces by her appearing to them. To that end, the fruits of apparitions (Medjugorje, Fatima, Lourdes, etc) can only occur with the consent of God (healings, miracles, increase of faith, etc). He is allowing all of this; it is His way, through His servant Mary. He can choose anyone…St. Peter, St. John the Divine, St. John the Baptist. He chooses Mary. Consider this.
“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.” Note the God wishes here. She is not elevating herself. Why didn’t Jesus appear instead? I don’t know. But, then again, He didn’t ask me what I thought.
Crytic1, I’m not sure how many Medjugorje messages you studied, but TBM repeatedly speaks of putting Jesus first. It is not about her ego; she has flat out said that she, like us, has to pray for graces. She gives her “motherly blessing” and no more; she is not a priest and she is not her Son. Again, her part is sanctioned by Him - it cannot be otherwise. Please look at the two most recent messages:
July 25, 2012 Message to Marija
“Dear children! Today I call you to the ‘good’. Be carriers of peace and goodness in this world. Pray that God may give you the strength so that hope and pride* may always reign in your heart and life because you are God’s children and carriers of His hope to this world that is without joy in the heart, and is without a future, because it does not have its heart open to God who is your salvation. Thank you for having responded to my call.”
*this doesn’t mean pride as in the sin of pride…this was a translation issue from the Croatian text
August 02, 2012 Message to Mirjana
“Dear children, I am with you and I am not giving up. I desire to have you come to know my Son. I desire for my children to be with me in eternal life. I desire for you to feel the joy of peace and to have eternal salvation. I am praying that you may overcome human weaknesses. I am imploring my Son to give you pure hearts. My dear children, only pure hearts know how to carry a cross and know how to sacrifice for all those sinners who have offended the Heavenly Father and who, even today, offend Him, although they have not come to know Him. I am praying that you may come to know the light of true faith which comes only from prayer of pure hearts. It is then that all those who are near you will feel the love of my Son. Pray for those whom my Son has chosen to lead you on the way to salvation. May your mouth refrain from every judgment. Thank you.”
Another recent message says, “Have confidence in me and adore my Son.”
I hope this helps somehow.
P.
D
Dorothy
Guest
Thank you for your entire well thought out response!Acts 5:34
6 But a Pharisee in the Sanhedrin named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, respected by all the people, stood up, ordered the men to be put outside for a short time, 35 and said to them, "Fellow Israelites, be careful what you are about to do to these men. 36 Some time ago, Theudas appeared, claiming to be someone important, and about four hundred men joined him, but he was killed, and all those who were loyal to him were disbanded and came to nothing.
37 After him came Judas the Galilean at the time of the census. He also drew people after him, but he too perished and all who were loyal to him were scattered. 38 So now I tell you, have nothing to do with these men, and let them go. For if this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself.
39 But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God." They were persuaded by him.
So the Church is careful on both counts. Neither quick to affirm (prudence) nor dismiss (John 7: 24 “Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.”).
It may allow for a time an “open question” it later rules against; it may affirm as “worthy of belief” things it seemed to scrutinize with such prejudice that it might appear the Church lacked charity, faith or both.
We do well to discern the spirits. But we can scruple and err too. Because Revelation
9-17 depicts the struggle of good and evil on earth as between the dragon and the woman (and her offspring) - one might scruple that "this is no longer about God … what care I for this "woman’ or “her offspring”? And toss out the Book of Revelation - or doubt the Church for canonizing such a thing. Which would be an error (at LEAST).
“You worship a book!” Satan could say. Tempting us to scruple never to read the Bible
which points to the Lord - for fear of idolatrous book worship.
It’s not bad to remind ourselves of these things. Meanwhile, Praise Jesus! The Way, the Truth and the Life! And the Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit! And thank you Mary for your part in God’s plan too.
R
robwar
Guest
If you look at the lives of the visionaries, after the apparitions, they lived very prayerful, devoted lives, some become religious. They dedicated themselves to prayer, repentance and humility. I looked when I have struggled with Marian apparitions in the past is that I just looked at the actual lives of the people She appeared to. I also looked at the lives of Saints that were known for big Marian devotions such as St. louis de Monfort and St. Maximillan Kolbe. Both men live such selfless sacrificial lives. St. Kolbe gave up his life in a nazi concentration camp for another. He allowed himself to be starved to death, a 2 week process. When i read the book “True Devotion to Mary”, the book doesn’t focus at all on apparitions but on following Mary as the fastest way to Christ. Pope John Paul 2 also had a big Marian devotion and look at how he change and touched the world. Christ said “by their fruits you shall know them”. I looked at those with big Marian devotions and I see total devotion to Christ, a total self-sacrifice to others, a life centered on prayer and repentance, and a humility that is real. I think we get stuck on the words but we need to also look at the fruit of those lives dedicated to Mary and Jesus.
C
Cryptic1
Guest
D
Dorothy
Guest
Jesus does everything for us.
And, there is nothing wrong with having confidence in the intercession of His mother.
And, there is nothing wrong with having confidence in the intercession of His mother.
P
Pomander
Guest
Hey Cryptic,
Ok, from your comments:
Mary is more clearly defined in them. After having read many of the messages, it is still my understanding. In the July 25, 2012 Message to Marija, Mary says “…I call you to the ‘good’. (Doesn’t Jesus call?)…thank you for having responded to my call.” (Is it her call or Jesus’ call?) <----- I don’t think you are understanding that she is representing Him here fully, with His consent. Jesus is calling through her. She has also said it is her call in that she wants what Jesus wants.
In the August 2, 2012 Message to Mirjana, Mary says "Dear children, I am with you and I am not giving up. I desire to have you come to know my Son. I desire for my children to be with me in eternal life. I desire for you to feel the joy of peace…I am praying…I am imploring my Son…(Mary may be leading all to her son, but she addresses herself in the first person in the first six sentences alone. Surely, we should be hearing more reference to Jesus as in “my son, my son”.) <----Mary is pleading with people to choose the messages and that, yes, she desires them as well. She wants people to accept the grace of God. Using the first person here doesn’t unravel the power of the messages, which again are only communicated with God’s consent. Do you not think He knows how the messages are worded?
The last comment, …“Have confidence in me and adore my Son.” (Why do we have to have confidence in Mary? Aren’t we supposed to have confidence in Jesus alone?) <---- She is saying to have confidence in her direction, which doesn’t go against Church doctrine. Why should we do this? Look around. The world has serious problems. No, we can have confidence in intercessors of the faith; this is what TBM and the Saints do. We can be confident that they will help lead us to Jesus if we would like that.
In the New Testament, Jesus repeatedly states, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” Jesus made it very clear there is no other way to salvation except through Him, so why do we need to go through Mary to get to Jesus? Is it that hard to get to Jesus? <---- Yes, and the apparitions would not happen if they didn’t completely agree with this…if TBM didn’t completely agree with this. You don’t have to go through Mary (as I believe I said in my other post). No one has to follow apparitions. TBM and the Saints lead us to Jesus, the only salvation. And, yes, people do need this extra help. It is hard to get to Jesus for those who do not know Him. It can be hard to get to Jesus if one is unforgiving, hard of heart, etc. For all its beauty, the world is more violent and hateful than ever; shootings in public places, hideous hate crimes, war, etc. I’ll wager these people do not know Jesus, Cryptic. This is in addition to those who struggle on without Him in their day-to-day lives: parents, those with disease, those trying to find a job.
If I need to get to Jesus, I go through the Holy Spirit, because He is God. Mary, while the mother of Jesus, was just a human being like the rest of us. The only remarkable thing about Mary was her faith in assenting to become the mother of God and on that point alone, should she be commended. <—Go through the HS. That’s fine. Yes, she was human as we are, but “the only remarkable thing?” Really? She had the Christ Child and became irrelevant? I am sorry to say that your determination to flat out reject TBM is working well…you ask for help but don’t want to see anything other than what you’ve already decided. You remind us of her humanity, but then seem to be looking for God-like actions from her in order to believe she is worth honoring.
I consider the her continuous faith and support of Christ to be relevant (which is what the Apostles offered, and they are relevant, no?), her focus in prayer and standing by Jesus during his cruel Passion to be relevant (I bet He thinks so, too…He made her the mother of all mankind while hanging on the cross). I consider her care with cleaning and preparing the body for burial to be relevant, along with her fasting, sacrifices, and support of the early Church. I think her Holy Assumption is incredibly relevant - Jesus did this on His own accord. Look at the conversion of Mexico as Our Lady of Guadalupe…this is relevant in the world today and only happened with the consent of God. If Mary hadn’t unceasingly supported Jesus on Earth she would not be honored i heaven. Again, she is the chosen person in the apparitions. THAT, my friend, is relevant.
Go in peace and good luck to you.
P.
Ok, from your comments:
Mary is more clearly defined in them. After having read many of the messages, it is still my understanding. In the July 25, 2012 Message to Marija, Mary says “…I call you to the ‘good’. (Doesn’t Jesus call?)…thank you for having responded to my call.” (Is it her call or Jesus’ call?) <----- I don’t think you are understanding that she is representing Him here fully, with His consent. Jesus is calling through her. She has also said it is her call in that she wants what Jesus wants.
In the August 2, 2012 Message to Mirjana, Mary says "Dear children, I am with you and I am not giving up. I desire to have you come to know my Son. I desire for my children to be with me in eternal life. I desire for you to feel the joy of peace…I am praying…I am imploring my Son…(Mary may be leading all to her son, but she addresses herself in the first person in the first six sentences alone. Surely, we should be hearing more reference to Jesus as in “my son, my son”.) <----Mary is pleading with people to choose the messages and that, yes, she desires them as well. She wants people to accept the grace of God. Using the first person here doesn’t unravel the power of the messages, which again are only communicated with God’s consent. Do you not think He knows how the messages are worded?
The last comment, …“Have confidence in me and adore my Son.” (Why do we have to have confidence in Mary? Aren’t we supposed to have confidence in Jesus alone?) <---- She is saying to have confidence in her direction, which doesn’t go against Church doctrine. Why should we do this? Look around. The world has serious problems. No, we can have confidence in intercessors of the faith; this is what TBM and the Saints do. We can be confident that they will help lead us to Jesus if we would like that.
In the New Testament, Jesus repeatedly states, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” Jesus made it very clear there is no other way to salvation except through Him, so why do we need to go through Mary to get to Jesus? Is it that hard to get to Jesus? <---- Yes, and the apparitions would not happen if they didn’t completely agree with this…if TBM didn’t completely agree with this. You don’t have to go through Mary (as I believe I said in my other post). No one has to follow apparitions. TBM and the Saints lead us to Jesus, the only salvation. And, yes, people do need this extra help. It is hard to get to Jesus for those who do not know Him. It can be hard to get to Jesus if one is unforgiving, hard of heart, etc. For all its beauty, the world is more violent and hateful than ever; shootings in public places, hideous hate crimes, war, etc. I’ll wager these people do not know Jesus, Cryptic. This is in addition to those who struggle on without Him in their day-to-day lives: parents, those with disease, those trying to find a job.
If I need to get to Jesus, I go through the Holy Spirit, because He is God. Mary, while the mother of Jesus, was just a human being like the rest of us. The only remarkable thing about Mary was her faith in assenting to become the mother of God and on that point alone, should she be commended. <—Go through the HS. That’s fine. Yes, she was human as we are, but “the only remarkable thing?” Really? She had the Christ Child and became irrelevant? I am sorry to say that your determination to flat out reject TBM is working well…you ask for help but don’t want to see anything other than what you’ve already decided. You remind us of her humanity, but then seem to be looking for God-like actions from her in order to believe she is worth honoring.
I consider the her continuous faith and support of Christ to be relevant (which is what the Apostles offered, and they are relevant, no?), her focus in prayer and standing by Jesus during his cruel Passion to be relevant (I bet He thinks so, too…He made her the mother of all mankind while hanging on the cross). I consider her care with cleaning and preparing the body for burial to be relevant, along with her fasting, sacrifices, and support of the early Church. I think her Holy Assumption is incredibly relevant - Jesus did this on His own accord. Look at the conversion of Mexico as Our Lady of Guadalupe…this is relevant in the world today and only happened with the consent of God. If Mary hadn’t unceasingly supported Jesus on Earth she would not be honored i heaven. Again, she is the chosen person in the apparitions. THAT, my friend, is relevant.
Go in peace and good luck to you.
P.
J
jpink1019
Guest
This is difficult for me.The highest virtue is love–of God and neighbor, yes? When we properly order our love towards God first all other loves fall into their proper place. What you have seen in the videos is expressions of love for God who thought of Mary before the foundations of the world to be the New Eve, the first disciple of Christ, the spotless Virgin who lived the life of Christ in perfection. That is what attracts devotees to Mary, not for herself, but for what, as she put it, what God accomplished for and through her–the Incarnation who is our redeemer and savior.
When we love we show it or it is no love at all. We show our family members we love them with words, kindly deeds, kisses, longing for them when separated, etc. It is the same in the Family of God, of which Mary is the Mother. We love her because Christ loved her, we love her because she is our Mother and sister, exemplar of faith, hope, and charity. She is more our mother than our biological mother for she was the instrument God chose to incarnate his Son as one of us and we will spend eternity with Jesus and Mary and all the Saints because her fiat negated Eve’s disobedient “no”.
As a former Protestant who had no understanding of these things it took me years to incorporate this kind of theology into my thinking, my outlook, my very being. I suggest you ask Mary to introduce herself to you. You’ll be surprised how much she understands about your dilemma, your reservations and unfamiliarity with her and Catholic understanding of her place within our salvation. She is a gentle teacher and a patient one–one you will grow to love as Jesus does and as the Church teaches we should.
I am not catholic but I have had many conversations with my best friend who is catholic.
Specifically the words that cause me to feel quite guarded and even fearful, were when you suggested that someone ask Mary to introduce herself to you.
For someone who grew up with idea of intercession and praying to the saints(such as other catholics) this doesn’t seem so threatening.
However, I do fear God and this concept of another entity, something other than God, acting in a way that I have only known God to act (reaching out/speaking to a believer/or a relationship) is well… scary. Because how do we know when God himself speaks to us? I have always considered it a VERY humbling idea should God choose to speak to anyone. But the way some people speak easily of Mary introducing herself and teaching others is quite uncomfortable.
I can have reverence, deep admiration for who she was and what she represents but when it comes to these other aspects (teaching, prayer, speaking to us or relationship) I hold these very sacred as apart of my exclusive relationship to Christ.
keep in mind. That I have been exploring Catholicism and my boyfriend and bestfriend is just as passionate about his catholic faith as i am, but I am adamant about making the best effort that I can to finding truth without compromising my relationship with God, or ignoring what the bible has had to say about intercession and prayer.
J
jpink1019
Guest
I agree.
D
Dorothy
Guest
To me, the thought of asking Mary to introduce herself to others, is a way of saying that they would receive the wisdom and understanding in how to have a relationship with her that is rightly ordered.
Mary’s humility is so great…she is aware that she is nothing without the Lord. It is as though her soul is a pane of glass that has no smudges on it, and the Light of the Trinity shines through her.
P
pablope
Guest
P
pablope
Guest
I hope you may find this story useful and you are able to relate:
calledtocommunion.com/2012/08/relics-saints-and-the-assumption-of-mary/
T*he key to the New Testament doctrine of the saints is not to destroy the older Hebraic doctrine of shared merit and responsibility, but to elevate it to an even greater place. Through Christ, and because of his infinite merits, the finite merits of the saints can now take on an eternal significance. This is why, far from detracting from Christ, the Christian belief in the intercession of saints enhances, fulfills, and completes the doctrine of Christ’s infinite and sufficient intercession.
Remember Colossians 1:24: “Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.” As members of Christ’s body, the Saints now share in his divine life and participate in his work of intercession.
From the NT perspective, it is fitting that the grace of Christ should be distributed in this way, through the Church. This is because the whole point of the redemption we have in Christ was to overcome the problem of human alienation – man alienated from God, and from one another. This is why saint Paul can speak in such glowing terms of the Church in Ephesians: both as the revelation of God’s mystery, reconciling all things, and also as the Body of Christ. Hence St. Gregory of Nyssa’s famous saying, “He who beholds the Church beholds Christ.” Understood in this way, the Biblical doctrine of saints, and relics expresses our conviction that the redeemed are truly a part of Christ and therefore connected to us. God does not want us to be saved without them.*
J
jpink1019
Guest
Here then is the difference.
I have not supposed that it was right to assume a relationship with anyone else but Christ.
Nor am i familiar with anyone else but God alone giving wisdom and understanding.
I do not have the understanding to include other people or things into that role.
Christ as my Savior, is simple without bringing to the table other people who could also give me wisom, understanding, and have a relationship with as well…
We cannot possible know everything there is to know about God.
When Christ says that we need not hesitate to come straight to the Father through him, I have to take his word for it. Christ is my goal and He is the only one who offers salvation.
P
pablope
Guest
Sure…no disagreement here…but you you also agree that Christ uses other means, instruments, other people…to give the offer of salvation?
Paul being called and sent to the gentiles…is an example, correct?
Your pastor…in our times…giving you instructions, guidance…would you consider him an instrument of salvation?
J
jpink1019
Guest
an instrument is a means to an end.
But I am referring to an ongoing relationship.
But I am referring to an ongoing relationship.
D
Dorothy
Guest
I agree that one must listen to their conscience when it comes to such matters, and I respect that.
We have no power to change your mind; only the Holy Spirit can do that.
D
Della
Guest
If what you say here is true–that only God can impart wisdom then no one could read books by theologians or listen to sermons or be taught by another person. The difficulty is that you have no knowledge of the Communion of Saints, what that means and how it affects the lives of those still living on the earth.
Those who have gone before us to heaven are not dead, but alive. Jesus specifically stated this. St. Paul tells us we are all one in the Lord–those on earth as well as those in heaven, whom he called a “great cloud of witnesses”. Jesus spoke with two “dead” people and consulted with them on the Mount of Transfiguration. The problem isn’t that heavenly persons cannot speak to us or help us, but that you have not been taught this truth and so it is alien to you.
When an ambassador comes from another country representing his government he speaks for it and for his people. We are all “ambassabors for Christ”, both we who are living on earth and those in heaven. We listen to our ordained and those trained to teach us, how much more should we listen to those who are alive with Christ in heaven, whom he sends to remind us to repent, to avail ourselves of all the helps to salvation he has given us, to live holy lives devoted to his service? That is what Mary tells us by saying God wants her to be known and loved. She is his ambassador whose whole being is dedicated to him and to giving to us men what God has given to her to impart to us–just as anyone else, alive on earth or alive in heaven can do through the power of the Holy Spirit. For it is only through the power of the Holy Spirit that we can do anything of value for God.
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