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pablope
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Okay…but do you or do you not also have an ongoing relationship with your pastor…albeit a spiritual one, in conjunction, with your ongoing relationship with Christ?
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jpink1019
Guest
Then i have no qualm with embassadors, because angels have carried the good news as well. However, messanger is not the same role as relationship.If what you say here is true–that only God can impart wisdom then no one could read books by theologians or listen to sermons or be taught by another person. The difficulty is that you have no knowledge of the Communion of Saints, what that means and how it affects the lives of those still living on the earth.
Those who have gone before us to heaven are not dead, but alive. Jesus specifically stated this. St. Paul tells us we are all one in the Lord–those on earth as well as those in heaven, whom he called a “great cloud of witnesses”. Jesus spoke with two “dead” people and consulted with them on the Mount of Transfiguration. The problem isn’t that heavenly persons cannot speak to us or help us, but that you have not been taught this truth and so it is alien to you.
When an ambassador comes from another country representing his government he speaks for it and for his people. We are all “ambassabors for Christ”, both we who are living on earth and those in heaven. We listen to our ordained and those trained to teach us, how much more should we listen to those who are alive with Christ in heaven, whom he sends to remind us to repent, to avail ourselves of all the helps to salvation he has given us, to live holy lives devoted to his service? That is what Mary tells us by saying God wants her to be known and loved. She is his ambassador whose whole being is dedicated to him and to giving to us men what God has given to her to impart to us–just as anyone else, alive on earth or alive in heaven can do through the power of the Holy Spirit. For it is only through the power of the Holy Spirit that we can do anything of value for God.
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jpink1019
Guest
My relationship with my pastor ect is no different than anyone might have with a priest.
Someone whom you can confide to, a guide.
I have gone to conffession before and have spoken hours with a priest whom I trust.
This is christian fellowship and support, something that every christian needs, because we are social beings and so is God. God made us this way.
But my relationship with God is exclusive in that Christ is my only way to salvation.
My worship, and prayer belong to Him.
This relationship that God desires with His children is, I find, to be a mystery as well.
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pablope
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Della
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This most likely the crux of the issue, yes? No one worships Mary by asking for her prayers and heavenly aid. We do pray to Mary but prayer alone is not worship.
So what is worship? It is adoration. Only God receives our adoration. But we can pray to all the saints who can and do help us by their intercession. There are many forms of prayer, of which adoration goes to God alone. Other forms of prayer, such as petitions or thanksgiving or praise can go to those who are with God in heaven because they intercede for us (petitions), we can thank them for their aid and intercession, and we can praise them for all the good things they did through God’s grace. God exalts and praises those who do his will, so there’s no reason why we can’t as well.
God shares his glory with his saints and his saints glorify him. It’s a “both/and” kind of thing not an “either/or” situation. We can have confidence that if we ask Mary or another saint to pray for us that they will do so, not that they will keep any thanksgiving or praise for themselves–they pass all of it on to God.
We ask for their intercession and aid because they have been purified and perfected in God’s love and so they cannot want anything that is not God’s will. So, our prayers are purfied and perfected through their intercession, cleansing them of all self-interest and selfish motives. Scripture tells us our prayers are not answered because we ask amiss. The saints in heaven cannot ask amiss.
God wants us to avail ourselves of the saints’ intercession for they are our brothers and sisters who he has taken to himself and with whom he shares his graces and his wisdom. We cannot go wrong with the saints any more than we can with the angels–for they are both his agents working his will in our lives.
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Michael_Francis
Guest
Posts regarding Medjugorje have been removed since it has never been approved by the Church and as such falls under the Banned Topics here at CAF. which bans.
With that said, please carry on.
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pablope
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robwar
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I think the OP’s question is about Marian apparitions not Mary’s role as intercessor. Again even the approved ones by church, you are not required to believe in them or follow them.
It took me a long time too as a convert. I studied them, not just the words spoken but how lives were changed as a result in first the visionaries and then those around them. Please don’t let your struggle over apparitions not keep you from becoming Catholic. Look again at the fruit, the overall message of repentance and prayer and focus that these are things we all need to do.
It took me a long time too as a convert. I studied them, not just the words spoken but how lives were changed as a result in first the visionaries and then those around them. Please don’t let your struggle over apparitions not keep you from becoming Catholic. Look again at the fruit, the overall message of repentance and prayer and focus that these are things we all need to do.
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jpink1019
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Della
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pablope;9680692:
of “guidance” with Mother Mary would be a relationship on a supernatural level) is what I have trouble with, since the only “supernatural” relationship I have known is with Christ/God alone.
I too had such a relationship with God/Christ alone and believed it was all I needed. If I were perfect it might be, but I can use all the help I can get.And union with God is definitely our goal. Having a relationship with Mary and the saints helps us not bars our relationship with God. Experience is fine, it certainly has its place. But if there really is a Communion of Saints, the ability to have the most holy, wise people, filled with God’s love ready, willing and able to help us, why not tap into such a wonderful resource. Mary and the saints never led anyone to falsehood, but helped deepen the faith of those who asked for their intercession, aid and guidance.
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tabycat
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jpink1019;9689688:
I too had such a relationship with God/Christ alone and believed it was all I needed. If I were perfect it might be, but I can use all the help I can get.
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PPT
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In regard to Marian apparitions… I agree with the post which suggests that you, rather, examine each apparition on a case by case basis. While indeed there are false apparitions, there have been many throughout history that have been of God and are edifying, conducive to piety and deepening one’s faith. That said, I would highly recommend (in fact whenever reading anything regarding, or related to, issues of faith) only reading those Catholic authors who, themselves, are adherent to the traditional Catholic faith as expressed by the historically continuous Magisterium (meaning not those Modernist Catholics who decry everything that’s traditionally “Catholic” these days.) Joan Carroll Cruz has written books covering many of the approved catholic Marian apparitions. Dr. Scott Hahn is another trusted author. There are many. But first, I would suggest doing a little on-line biographical background checking of any such author whom you wish to read as Catholic subject matter - how and what is written on these subjects - affects one’s faith formation. Because, when you read to learn about these subjects, indeed, what you are engaged in is forming your own Catholic faith. And when one gets incorrect or biased information, one’s opinion will become, then, informed poorly. It’s just very important to read wisely, realizing what you read effects how you think, just as how you pray effects how you believe. The Blessed Mother has appeared to humble souls throughout history as part of God’s plan for our salvation. The “approved” apparitions have been investigated thoroughly by the Church; these are safe to read about and can be helpful to your faith. They do not in any way deflect from Jesus His role or importance. I would, in fact, be suspect of anyone telling me that ALL such apparitions are a hoax, etc.
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melekali
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Greetings in Christ, Koineman, blessed be God forever!
It is not that difficult to understand why we hold the Blessed Virgin Mary in high regard. Recall the incident between Elizabeth and Mary when the baptist lept in her womb for joy in the presence of his kinsman and the Christ. Filled with the Holy Spirit she asks “how is it that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?” Then we have Mary’s canticle, in part, “…all generations shall call me blessed…” The people to whom you refer were honoring Jesus’ Mother. This is right and just and does not detract in any way from Jesus. When His people are honored, He is honored. So much more his Mother who is the Queen Mother. This position of the Mother of the King, is highly honored and detracts in no way from the King. Say that to Jesus about His Mother and let me know what He tells you about that. Any good Catholic knows what He would say - “If you honor my Mother you do well and honor me, but if not, you embarrass me.”
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kbcdac
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“Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.”
And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother, for I will not refuse you.””
This scripture may not be the best to use when speaking of Mary. This request was made by Bathsheba and ended in Soloman killing one of his brothers.
1 Kings 2
20*“I have one small request to make of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.”
The king replied, “Make it, my mother; I will not refuse you.”
21*So she said, “Let Abishag the Shunammite be given in marriage to your brother Adonijah.”
22*King Solomon answered his mother, “Why do you request Abishag the Shunammite for Adonijah? You might as well request the kingdom for him—after all, he is my older brother —yes, for him and for Abiathar the priest and Joab son of Zeruiah!”
23Then King Solomon swore by the Lord: “May God deal with me, be it ever so severely, if Adonijah does not pay with his life for this request! 24And now, as surely as the Lord lives—he who has established me securely on the throne of my father David and has founded a dynasty for me as he promised —Adonijah shall be put to death today!” 25*So King Solomon gave orders to Benaiah son of Jehoiada, and he struck down Adonijah and he died.
And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother, for I will not refuse you.””
This scripture may not be the best to use when speaking of Mary. This request was made by Bathsheba and ended in Soloman killing one of his brothers.
1 Kings 2
20*“I have one small request to make of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.”
The king replied, “Make it, my mother; I will not refuse you.”
21*So she said, “Let Abishag the Shunammite be given in marriage to your brother Adonijah.”
22*King Solomon answered his mother, “Why do you request Abishag the Shunammite for Adonijah? You might as well request the kingdom for him—after all, he is my older brother —yes, for him and for Abiathar the priest and Joab son of Zeruiah!”
23Then King Solomon swore by the Lord: “May God deal with me, be it ever so severely, if Adonijah does not pay with his life for this request! 24And now, as surely as the Lord lives—he who has established me securely on the throne of my father David and has founded a dynasty for me as he promised —Adonijah shall be put to death today!” 25*So King Solomon gave orders to Benaiah son of Jehoiada, and he struck down Adonijah and he died.
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Della
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The point isn’t what happened to Adonijah, but the fact that the Davidic kings saw their mothers as higher in position than even their wives. It was the queen mother who sat beside her son and advised him. Being that Bethsheda was merely a human with faults, she didn’t give Solomon good advise, but he listened to her just the same. Mary, otoh, is perfected in grace–she cannot ask her Son against his will or that of the Father. She merited her place by her faithfulness, not only in her fiat, but also by devoting her life to her Son and Savior’s mission, even standing with him beneath his cross and being with the believers at Pentecost. She had an intrinsic role to play that didn’t end with giving Jesus birth, but continues in heaven as intercessor and Mother of all believers.
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kbcdac
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But Solomon did not do what she asked, even though he said he would not refuse her. . I understand that queen mothers were highly respected. I just think this particular scripture should not be used as a Marion example. God was angry that Israel asked for kings at all.
The LORD delivered you out of the hand of your enemies on every side, and ye dwelled safe. But when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said, Nay; but a king shall reign over us; when the LORD your God was your king. Now therefore behold the king whom ye have chosen and whom ye have desired! and behold, the LORD hath set a king over you. Your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king. So Samuel called unto the LORD, and the LORD sent thunder and rain that day . . . . (I Samuel 12:11-13, 17-18
There are so many other scriptures that would be more appropriate.
The LORD delivered you out of the hand of your enemies on every side, and ye dwelled safe. But when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said, Nay; but a king shall reign over us; when the LORD your God was your king. Now therefore behold the king whom ye have chosen and whom ye have desired! and behold, the LORD hath set a king over you. Your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king. So Samuel called unto the LORD, and the LORD sent thunder and rain that day . . . . (I Samuel 12:11-13, 17-18
There are so many other scriptures that would be more appropriate.
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Koineman
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Calling someone blessed is not nearly the same as honoring her in the extraordinary ways I’ve seen people doing.
Sorry, I’m not totally convinced of that. I see no reason why God should not be the only one to get all glory and honor on the order of devotion.
I think it does, actually. As I mentioned in the OP, at sites where Marian apparitions occurred, there was little mention of Jesus, and no devotion to Jesus was shown in the procession of the platform with the statue of Mary. You can’t rationally tell me that people are going to these sites with the intention of worshiping Christ. They’re going there because of Mary.
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Koineman
Guest
I agree, and “messenger” also does not entail devotion and asking things that are normally asked of God. That is what I have seen being done with Mary.
I’m still open to learning about the Catholic views on Mary, but so far I’ve seen no Catholic explanation that justifies the extreme adoration and honor she gets as well as the intense reliance on her for wisdom, protection, grace, and so on. I can see asking her to pray for us, but that’s about it.
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CatholicRoots
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Hello Koineman, I haven’t read the entirety of this thread only the first page of posts so sorry if my response has already been covered or is irrelevant from how the thread proceeded. But regarding your reservations with some of the apparitions to do with Mary; some will be more focused on Mary and others more on Christ, but never are they exclusively on Mary. So one bit of advice would be maybe to either not look into the apparations for the time being if you’re not comfortable with them or look for an apparition that has Christ as a more prominent and explicit part. However I don’t think the Fatima apparation is solely about Mary, for instance (if I’m not mistaken) the Fatima prayer presumably given by Mary to the children reads ‘Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save our souls from the fires of hell and lead all souls into heaven, especially those in most need of your mercy. amen.’ As you see the apparition also contained references and prayers towards Christ though as you have shown some other messages focus more on devotion to Our Lady. But implicitly glory is still given unto her Son.
Mary is a mediatrix for graces so she implores and solicits graces from Christ to give to her children in the Church. So considering that Mary is all for Christ and recieves all from Christ devotion to her is indirect devotion to Christ whom she prays to for us. So all apparations, devotions, chaplets etc… that focus on Mary don’t exclude Christ even if they don’t explictly mention God or have Christ as the most salient feature, though most do. E.g. the Rosary is addressed to Mary but you meditate on the life of Christ. If you don’t feel like you can pray to Mary yet or don’t feel that comfortable with it maybe ask Jesus for that ability in due time. Of course the most important person is Christ, but Mary is our Mother and Christ predestined her/loved her before the world and continues too, so devotion to her must be pleasing to Christ. Remeber God chose her before he created the world and there was a reason for that. You would show your freinds mother a lot of respect for instance but how much more should we do that for our Gods Mother.
(Also this is something I need to pursue myself, but look into what the saints say about the Blessed Mother because they always give the best explanations. A saint focused on a lot on Marian things would be best, for example St. Maximilian Kolbe or St. Louis de Montefort.) All the saints give her great devotion such as St. Padre Pio, St Therese of Lisuex, St. Maria Faustina. etc… so maybe look at some of their thoughts on Our Lady.
All these sites such as Fatima and Lourdes seem to me to emphazise the Rosary the most and that is geared all towards Christs life. However some people might just use it for devotion to Mary but these don’t neccessarily epitomize Catholic Teaching or the average Catholic laity for that matter. Anyway God Bless.
Mary is a mediatrix for graces so she implores and solicits graces from Christ to give to her children in the Church. So considering that Mary is all for Christ and recieves all from Christ devotion to her is indirect devotion to Christ whom she prays to for us. So all apparations, devotions, chaplets etc… that focus on Mary don’t exclude Christ even if they don’t explictly mention God or have Christ as the most salient feature, though most do. E.g. the Rosary is addressed to Mary but you meditate on the life of Christ. If you don’t feel like you can pray to Mary yet or don’t feel that comfortable with it maybe ask Jesus for that ability in due time. Of course the most important person is Christ, but Mary is our Mother and Christ predestined her/loved her before the world and continues too, so devotion to her must be pleasing to Christ. Remeber God chose her before he created the world and there was a reason for that. You would show your freinds mother a lot of respect for instance but how much more should we do that for our Gods Mother.
(Also this is something I need to pursue myself, but look into what the saints say about the Blessed Mother because they always give the best explanations. A saint focused on a lot on Marian things would be best, for example St. Maximilian Kolbe or St. Louis de Montefort.) All the saints give her great devotion such as St. Padre Pio, St Therese of Lisuex, St. Maria Faustina. etc… so maybe look at some of their thoughts on Our Lady.
All these sites such as Fatima and Lourdes seem to me to emphazise the Rosary the most and that is geared all towards Christs life. However some people might just use it for devotion to Mary but these don’t neccessarily epitomize Catholic Teaching or the average Catholic laity for that matter. Anyway God Bless.
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Della
Guest
It’s only one reference, and a minor one at that. But it can put the Wedding at Cana into perspective for us and give us an insight into the relationship between Jesus and Mary.
A good book with many scriptural references, as well as those of saints/blesseds/bishops/priests who delved into Mary’s role is St. Alphonsus de Liguori’s “The Glories of Mary”. It is couched in language moderns may find somewhat difficult to follow, but it is a treasure trove of references and insights.
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