Marian Devotions during Mass?

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godisgood77

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Hello,

My parish is so vibrant in so many ways… It is a great example of the school and the church working together to raise our children with a strong Catholic identity and preparing them to be great examples for our broader society.

Over the last several months an issue has cropped up. Our pastor, who is new to the parish in the past year, has introduced several devotionals that align well with his spirituality. By an large, they are very positive… he is a very prayerful man… a little awkward, but a wholesome priest…

The issue is that he is bringing devotionals in to the mass. For instance, praying the Hail Mary during the intercessory prayers… Another would be adding different prayers at the beginning or end of mass… not as optional, but as mandatory… As well as rotating different statues up at the front of the altar (Padre Pio, Mary, Joseph, etc) at different times. In general, I think most are okay with his personal devotions, but recently I have been in several conversations about how adding all of these things to the Liturgy are a bit troubling to the many in the community.

After some research, I’m come across a few things that do reinforce the point that these things are not in alignment with how the Church thinks about the Mass.

First, from the Catechism… ***846 says in the CCC, no priest or bishop can add or substract from the Liturgy on his own authority. ***

Second from Marialis Cultus…#31 …
In the first place there are certain persons concerned with the care of souls who scorn a priori, devotions of piety which, in their correct forms have been recommended by the magisterium, who leave them aside and in this way create a vacuum which they do not fill. They forget that the Council has said that devotions of piety should harmonize with the liturgy, not be suppressed. Secondly there are those who, without wholesome liturgical and pastoral criteria, mix practices of piety and liturgical acts in hybrid celebrations. It sometimes happens that novenas or similar practices of piety are inserted into the very celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice. This creates the danger that the Lord’s Memorial Rite, instead of being the culmination of the meeting of the Christian community, becomes the occasion, as it were, for devotional practices. For those who act in this way we wish to recall the rule laid down by the Council prescribing that exercises of piety should be harmonized with the liturgy not merged into it. Wise pastoral action should, on the one hand, point out and emphasize the proper nature of the liturgical acts, while on the other hand it should enhance the value of practices of piety in order to adapt them to the needs of individual communities in the Church and to make them valuable aids to the liturgy.

I think it is clear that devotionals are a great help to all Catholics when used correctly… encouraged, freely chosen and rightly ordered. They have the proven ability to help each individual develop their faith and learn more about the Catholic religion. However, in this case (and it brings me discomfort to use this word), it seems like liturgical abuse.

What are your thoughts?

How would you recommend addressing the issue??

Thanks!

Pax
Dan
 
godisgood77 said:
lots of lookers… no talkers…
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Wells, some of us are a bit wary of accusations of “liturgical abuse.” For one thing, when you mention adding prayers before and after Mass, you don’t say exactly when before and after. Things that would not be acceptable before the dismissal, for example, may be perfectly all right after the dismissal.

And I certainly don’t understand how changing up the statues is a problem. I don’t know of any ruling that forbids that.
 
The Mass is the highest possible prayer of the Church. It is morally impossible for any devotion to Christ or Mary to provide them with greater honor than the Mass itself, and so, by definition, a person that inserts devotions into the Mass is taking away adoration of both Jesus and Mary, not adding to it.

If you find a 1920 Scotch, don’t mix it with the whiskey on your table.

Devotions prior to Mass or after Mass are perfectly acceptable. Praying the Rosary in the middle of the consecration is objectively displeasing to her.
 
Praying a Hail Mary during the Prayers of the Faithful can hardly be characterized as liturgical abuse given the frequent Saturday optional memorials in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary herself.

enhance the value of practices of piety in order to adapt them to the needs of individual communities in the Church and to make them valuable aids to the liturgy.

Sounds like that is what your pastor is doing.

You asked for our thoughts. I think it is much to do about nothing.

You asked how we recommend you address the issue. I recommend you don’t.

-Tim-
 
I agree that it’s not your place to take it on.

I might ask though: Is your pastor from Ireland? Many of the Irish pastors in this Archdiocese add a Hail Mary to the end of the prayer intentions. This is what they do in Ireland as well. They’ve literally grown up with it.
 
godisgood77 said:
Hello,

My parish is so vibrant in so many ways… It is a great example of the school and the church working together to raise our children with a strong Catholic identity and preparing them to be great examples for our broader society.

Over the last several months an issue has cropped up. Our pastor, who is new to the parish in the past year, has introduced several devotionals that align well with his spirituality. By an large, they are very positive… he is a very prayerful man… a little awkward, but a wholesome priest…

The issue is that he is bringing devotionals in to the mass. For instance, praying the Hail Mary during the intercessory prayers… Another would be adding different prayers at the beginning or end of mass… not as optional, but as mandatory… As well as rotating different statues up at the front of the altar (Padre Pio, Mary, Joseph, etc) at different times. In general, I think most are okay with his personal devotions, but recently I have been in several conversations about how adding all of these things to the Liturgy are a bit troubling to the many in the community.

After some research, I’m come across a few things that do reinforce the point that these things are not in alignment with how the Church thinks about the Mass.

First, from the Catechism… ***846 says in the CCC, no priest or bishop can add or substract from the Liturgy on his own authority. ***

Second from Marialis Cultus…#31 …
In the first place there are certain persons concerned with the care of souls who scorn a priori, devotions of piety which, in their correct forms have been recommended by the magisterium, who leave them aside and in this way create a vacuum which they do not fill. They forget that the Council has said that devotions of piety should harmonize with the liturgy, not be suppressed. Secondly there are those who, without wholesome liturgical and pastoral criteria, mix practices of piety and liturgical acts in hybrid celebrations. It sometimes happens that novenas or similar practices of piety are inserted into the very celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice. This creates the danger that the Lord’s Memorial Rite, instead of being the culmination of the meeting of the Christian community, becomes the occasion, as it were, for devotional practices. For those who act in this way we wish to recall the rule laid down by the Council prescribing that exercises of piety should be harmonized with the liturgy not merged into it. Wise pastoral action should, on the one hand, point out and emphasize the proper nature of the liturgical acts, while on the other hand it should enhance the value of practices of piety in order to adapt them to the needs of individual communities in the Church and to make them valuable aids to the liturgy.

I think it is clear that devotionals are a great help to all Catholics when used correctly… encouraged, freely chosen and rightly ordered. They have the proven ability to help each individual develop their faith and learn more about the Catholic religion. However, in this case (and it brings me discomfort to use this word), it seems like liturgical abuse.

What are your thoughts?

How would you recommend addressing the issue??

Thanks!

Pax
Dan
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You should be thankful you have a holy priest, willing to teach Devotions. He isn’t “adding” anything to the liturgy, a Hail Mary after the petitions is very nice. Asking Our Lady’s prayers with ours. I hope he is bringing back Devotions to his parish especially teaching the children !! Our parish has several of these all the time. School kids too. God Bless, Memaw
 
Well, presuming that there might be liturgical abuse (and that’s quite the presumption!), let’s see if these rise to that level…
godisgood77 said:
The issue is that he is bringing devotionals in to the mass. For instance, praying the Hail Mary during the intercessory prayers
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But, the intercessory prayers are created on a daily basis, and aren’t set in stone. If, as part of his concluding prayer, the priest celebrant includes a Hail Mary, he’s not doing anything that’s not permitted.
… Another would be adding different prayers at the beginning or end of mass… not as optional, but as mandatory.
Click to expand...
Two things to note here. First, as others have said, the timing of these is critical. Does “at the beginning” mean immediately before Mass begins, or once it’s already started? Does “[at] the end of mass” mean after the prayer after communion or before it? Second, “not as optional, but as mandatory” is open to a range of interpretation. Are you saying that he’s up at the altar, commanding (?) everyone to pray? Or, is it just the case that he’s doing it while people are there, and they feel awkward not praying the prayers? If I’m reading between the lines correctly, people are simply unhappy that he’s bringing these prayers (which don’t resonate with their personal spiritualities) into a context in which they’re confronted with them. Let them not pray the prayers… right? 🤷
… As well as rotating different statues up at the front of the altar (Padre Pio, Mary, Joseph, etc) at different times.
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Right: not a liturgical abuse, then. It’s just that some folks look down on the whole notion of statues, so their mere presence (especially in a conspicuous way) makes them itchy.
First, from the Catechism… ***846 says in the CCC, no priest or bishop can add or substract from the Liturgy on his own authority. ***
Click to expand...
Right; but he’s not adding nor subtracting. Rather, he’s providing prayers where he is permitted by the rite to provide them.
It sometimes happens that novenas or similar practices of piety are inserted into the very celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice. This creates the danger that the Lord’s Memorial Rite, instead of being the culmination of the meeting of the Christian community, becomes the occasion, as it were, for devotional practices.
Click to expand...
Notice what the example is, here. A novena. In the middle of Mass. That would be the insertion of a devotional practice into Mass… not the use of the invocation of Mary in the context of the prayers of the faithful or the presence of a statue. 🤷

On the other hand, there’s a very fine line between encouraging devotions and forcing them upon unwilling parishioners…
 
Interesting Ireland is mentioned. Here Mary often seems to take precedence over Jesus. I can think of literally dozens of Marian shrines by roadsides around the country and only ONE have I ever seen to Jesus Maybe that Ireland traditionally is or was a matriarchal culture? But yes it concerns me also. More so is a priest in one parish I was near whose life was taken up with Little Flower to the extent of a huge photograph above and behind the altar, and i mean huge. More than life sized. And yes we surely need to be watchful that nothing detracts from Jesus or dilutes. NB I have rarely heard a decade of the rosary at Mass and the more constant hymn chanted after communion is O sacrament most holy, o sacrament divine,
 
pianistclare said:
I agree that it’s not your place to take it on.

I might ask though: Is your pastor from Ireland? Many of the Irish pastors in this Archdiocese add a Hail Mary to the end of the prayer intentions. This is what they do in Ireland as well. They’ve literally grown up with it.
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It is the custom in England, too, as England has the ancient title of ‘Mary’s Dowry’. it’s often introduced with a few words like ’ Let us ask Our Lady to pray with us and for us, as we say…’, or ‘Let us ask Our Lady to join her prayers with ours as we say…’.
 
Gorgias said:
Well, presuming that there might be liturgical abuse (and that’s quite the presumption!), let’s see if these rise to that level…

But, the intercessory prayers are created on a daily basis, and aren’t set in stone. If, as part of his concluding prayer, the priest celebrant includes a Hail Mary, he’s not doing anything that’s not permitted.

Two things to note here. First, as others have said, the timing of these is critical. Does “at the beginning” mean immediately before Mass begins, or once it’s already started? Does “[at] the end of mass” mean after the prayer after communion or before it? Second, “not as optional, but as mandatory” is open to a range of interpretation. Are you saying that he’s up at the altar, commanding (?) everyone to pray? Or, is it just the case that he’s doing it while people are there, and they feel awkward not praying the prayers? If I’m reading between the lines correctly, people are simply unhappy that he’s bringing these prayers (which don’t resonate with their personal spiritualities) into a context in which they’re confronted with them. Let them not pray the prayers… right? 🤷

Right: not a liturgical abuse, then. It’s just that some folks look down on the whole notion of statues, so their mere presence (especially in a conspicuous way) makes them itchy.

Right; but he’s not adding nor subtracting. Rather, he’s providing prayers where he is permitted by the rite to provide them.

Notice what the example is, here. A novena. In the middle of Mass. That would be the insertion of a devotional practice into Mass… not the use of the invocation of Mary in the context of the prayers of the faithful or the presence of a statue. 🤷

On the other hand, there’s a very fine line between encouraging devotions and forcing them upon unwilling parishioners…
Click to expand...
Our Devotions, Mother of Perpetual Help, on Tues. and Fatima on Fri. are done right after Mass and not during. One can leave or one can stay, many do stay. God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
Our Devotions, Mother of Perpetual Help, on Tues. and Fatima on Fri. are done right after Mass and not during. One can leave or one can stay, many do stay. God Bless, Memaw
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Agreed. The question, though, is whether this is what Dan is describing… 🤷
 
godisgood77 said:
…Our pastor, who is new to the parish in the past year, has introduced several devotionals that align well with his spirituality. …

The issue is that he is bringing devotionals in to the mass. For instance, praying the Hail Mary during the intercessory prayers…

Another would be adding different prayers at the beginning or end of mass… not as optional, but as mandatory…

As well as rotating different statues up at the front of the altar (Padre Pio, Mary, Joseph, etc) at different times.

In general, I think most are okay with his personal devotions, but recently I have been in several conversations about how adding all of these things to the Liturgy are a bit troubling to the many in the community.

I think it is clear that devotionals are a great help to all Catholics when used correctly…

in this case (and it brings me discomfort to use this word), it seems like liturgical abuse. …
Click to expand...
Does beginning or end of Mass mean after the Entrance Procession or before the dismissal “Thanks be to God!”?

Rome asked (of the *Bishops of England and Wales) *that the recitation of the Hail Mary at the end of the intercessory prayers be stopped. The practice started in 1971 (by the Bishop of Leeds).

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2012/05/23/bishop-urges-priests-to-drop-the-hail-mary-from-masses/
 
Rosebud77 said:
Interesting Ireland is mentioned. Here Mary often seems to take precedence over Jesus. I can think of literally dozens of Marian shrines by roadsides around the country and only ONE have I ever seen to Jesus Maybe that Ireland traditionally is or was a matriarchal culture? But yes it concerns me also. More so is a priest in one parish I was near whose life was taken up with Little Flower to the extent of a huge photograph above and behind the altar, and i mean huge. More than life sized. And yes we surely need to be watchful that nothing detracts from Jesus or dilutes. NB I have rarely heard a decade of the rosary at Mass and the more constant hymn chanted after communion is O sacrament most holy, o sacrament divine,
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To Jesus through Mary. She is our Mother after all. God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
To Jesus through Mary. She is our Mother after all. God Bless, Memaw
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Agreed. As a cradle Catholic I was brought up top honor Mary. Never in my wildest dreams did I believe that anyone was placing her above Our Lord. Quite the contrary.
She always point sto her Son.
 
Let me be the next to ask, when exactly are these prayers happening? Before the Mass actually begins? After the final prayer/hymn? (lots of looking, no reply 😉 😉 😉 ) Many parishes do this. One of my most loved parishes I visit has the noontime prayer to Mary (Regina Caeli this month, I think), and the Divine Mercy after Mass, as it’s the local/area shrine to the Divine Mercy.
Rosebud77 said:
Interesting Ireland is mentioned. Here Mary often seems to take precedence over Jesus. I can think of literally dozens of Marian shrines by roadsides around the country and only ONE have I ever seen to Jesus Maybe that Ireland traditionally is or was a matriarchal culture? But yes it concerns me also. More so is a priest in one parish I was near whose life was taken up with Little Flower to the extent of a huge photograph above and behind the altar, and i mean huge. More than life sized. And yes we surely need to be watchful that nothing detracts from Jesus or dilutes. NB I have rarely heard a decade of the rosary at Mass and the more constant hymn chanted after communion is O sacrament most holy, o sacrament divine,
Click to expand...
In my opinion, each and every Church where Mass is held is built as a permanent shrine to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ (bbhn). Even the Marian devotions, in my opinion again, are actually dedicated to our Lord and Savior; to Jesus through Mary.
 
pianistclare said:
Agreed. As a cradle Catholic I was brought up top honor Mary. Never in my wildest dreams did I believe that anyone was placing her above Our Lord. Quite the contrary.
She always point sto her Son.
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Hmmm… I do not see it that way; prefer direct to Jesus always. A monsignor i talked to re Knock pointed out that it is wrongly named a Marian shrine a the three figures including Mary are pointing to the Lamb on the Altar. I agree wholeheartedly with him
 
I had no idea there were Catholic parishes where a Hail Mary is not said during mass. I thought this was universal.

I’d hate to go to mass and not say a Haily Mary after intercessions.
 
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