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AlanFromWichita
Guest
You’re right, I’m wrong.
Sorry this crossed in the mail with my last message.
Bye. See ya never. Sorry I ruined your day.
Alan
- Status
Sorry this crossed in the mail with my last message.
Bye. See ya never. Sorry I ruined your day.
Alan
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MysticRose
Guest
A little tid bit of information for you …
I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness, and then later became agnostic then practiced buddhism for a while, then Paganism, then I came back into Christianity and was re-baptized a Baptist (ToB) and then came full circle back to the Church to which I was baptized into as a baby but never taught anything about except to hate.
So, therefore me being a Catholic and a practicing one took a lot of time and research to convince me that it was the TRUTH to begin with. I even had to except the Trinity at first because for all I was taught as a Baptist I still did not even fully except that, coming from a unitarian background.
Everything to me at first had to be Scripturally backed up and if it was not I would not except it. What I have found is that all of my questions have been answered and that there was nothing that the Church could not answer for me. Including deep seeded questions that I had about eveolution, and scientific theories and the like … Where other religions told me to effectively shut my mind off the Church has not and they have told me to think, because they do not fear my questions or my thoughts … there is not fear on their part and there shouldn’t be because as I have finally realized the one that really does hold the keys has no reason to fear …
I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness, and then later became agnostic then practiced buddhism for a while, then Paganism, then I came back into Christianity and was re-baptized a Baptist (ToB) and then came full circle back to the Church to which I was baptized into as a baby but never taught anything about except to hate.
So, therefore me being a Catholic and a practicing one took a lot of time and research to convince me that it was the TRUTH to begin with. I even had to except the Trinity at first because for all I was taught as a Baptist I still did not even fully except that, coming from a unitarian background.
Everything to me at first had to be Scripturally backed up and if it was not I would not except it. What I have found is that all of my questions have been answered and that there was nothing that the Church could not answer for me. Including deep seeded questions that I had about eveolution, and scientific theories and the like … Where other religions told me to effectively shut my mind off the Church has not and they have told me to think, because they do not fear my questions or my thoughts … there is not fear on their part and there shouldn’t be because as I have finally realized the one that really does hold the keys has no reason to fear …
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Penitent
Guest
My goodness, I want to clearly state something–when I feel inspired, I ask Mary for her intercession. I find I do it most when in need of domestic help. I thank her when I think something has happened that her hand has been in…
But NO, I don’t feel required and I don’t feel the devotion to pray the rosary everyday. I do it several times a week (no less than 3), and I do it because I think it’s what Jesus would like me to do, that He’d like me to cultivate a better relationship with her…but geesh, sometimes people want to strong-arm you and browbeat you into this tremendous devotion that you (translate “I”) just don’t have…and IF I’m not mistaken, neither did St. Teresa of Avila, though she also was faithful in praying the rosary. I can pray the Memorarae with no difficulty, and the Confiteor, and everything else she’s included in, but I do have difficulty with consecrating myself to her…I’m not a hypocrite and I’m not going to say something that I just don’t yet feel comfortable doing.
And for whomever has brought up St. Alphonsus de Liguori, I have nearly every book published of his writings (and would love to find "Preparation for Mass)…I’m well aware of his devotion to her–and guess what? Nada, still hasn’t pushed me to it, short of like I said, trying because that’s what I think Christ wants me to do.
I can say though when people question my devotion to God because I don’t have this incredible devotion to Mary, I wince–and I can only imagine what someone converting to Catholicism whose been taught awful things about Marian devotion does.
Penitent
But NO, I don’t feel required and I don’t feel the devotion to pray the rosary everyday. I do it several times a week (no less than 3), and I do it because I think it’s what Jesus would like me to do, that He’d like me to cultivate a better relationship with her…but geesh, sometimes people want to strong-arm you and browbeat you into this tremendous devotion that you (translate “I”) just don’t have…and IF I’m not mistaken, neither did St. Teresa of Avila, though she also was faithful in praying the rosary. I can pray the Memorarae with no difficulty, and the Confiteor, and everything else she’s included in, but I do have difficulty with consecrating myself to her…I’m not a hypocrite and I’m not going to say something that I just don’t yet feel comfortable doing.
And for whomever has brought up St. Alphonsus de Liguori, I have nearly every book published of his writings (and would love to find "Preparation for Mass)…I’m well aware of his devotion to her–and guess what? Nada, still hasn’t pushed me to it, short of like I said, trying because that’s what I think Christ wants me to do.
I can say though when people question my devotion to God because I don’t have this incredible devotion to Mary, I wince–and I can only imagine what someone converting to Catholicism whose been taught awful things about Marian devotion does.
Penitent
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Writer
Guest
Whoa! Thread digression here! Well, at any rate, thanks for your kind words. I accept much of the theology behind the term, but I reject the term itself for the reasons given in my paper on the topic. It is flawed attempt to convey a mystery, but the term only muddies the water both in terms of language and in terms of theology. Having said that, though, this issue has been repeatedly re-hashed here, and I have no interest in highjacking this thread to discuss “Co-Redemptrix”. It’s a beaten horse as far as I am concerned…
W
Writer
Guest
DeLorean Boy,
I took great pains to make my responses on this topic clear as my suggestions only, but I do think the CCC quote was of interest, because it is necessary in dealing with the issues at hand. No one is talking about doing minimums here. Perhaps minimum in your eye only takes into account whether, or not, someone is sufficiently devoted to Mary to satisfy the contigent of “Marian police” who are always prowling these forums in search for those with a slightly different perspectives. Anyway, I am not by any means trying to inject doubt into our appreciation of the saints…but only hope for those like myself who end their Marian devotion, for the most part, with a “Hail Mary”…
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delorean_boy
Guest
Marian police? I responded to someones complaint about a priest’s views on Mary. I was merely stating that the priest is backed up by the Church. You say “hey, not everything the saints say is correct”, so I respond to you. Im not “prowling” the forums looking to bash people over the head with Mary. But if someone makes a feelings based judgement on why its ok to neglect Mary as a Catholic, Im going to show them that their assertion is not supported by the Church. Especially when they are speaking ill of a priest who merely agrees with the Saints, and Popes.
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MysticRose
Guest
Have you been declared a theologian by your Bishop?
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Penitent
Guest
Who is speaking ill of a priest here? I did a quick search on the word priest, and it appears only my post could be loosely interpreted to be speaking ill of a priest. No matter what, the Church does not teach we have to have this devotion to Mary that the posters here seem to be espousing. Dogma? Yes, surely I believe everything we are taught about her.
I simply disagreed with the priest’s statement that if you don’t have a devotion to Mary, you can’t go to heaven. If that’s the worst thing someone says about that priest in his life, than surely he is a saint
The Church does not teach that you must have a devotion to Mary to get to heaven. Bottom line. Devotion to Mary is not the ticket to heaven. Loving God, following His commandments, and loving your neighbor and all that comes from that is the way in…now devotion to Mary is a good thing–I’m not saying it isn’t, but obviously it’s not required.And if you think I was speaking ill of a priest, you’d better visit some of the other threads active right now and speak up for these servants of God on those threads.
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MysticRose
Guest
First we DO NOT adhere to the renditions or applications that man makes to defintions … We adhere to what the Church says the meaning is to something, as we have many other meanings in our vocabulary as Catholics that is hard for many people to understand.
And if this was so true then the word Trinity would not be in existence either because of the fact that it was so controversial. The teaching of the Trinity was already in the Church and already excepted by the Lay Faithful it was the attachment of calling it what it was and then making it Doctrinal and Dogmatic that was the problem, thereby leading to the Arian Heresy.
Did the Church then give into the ramblings of MANY not just a few back then either? No they did not and we have what we do today because they did not. Not all of th theologians and priests and Bishops agreed either back then, does that make the Trinity any less true? No it does not.
This analogy is to show you that we do not shy away from things because of the belief that people will not except TRUTH, and the fact remains the Church has already declared Mary, Mediatrix. This is already a Dogma of the Church. and the Doctrine of Co-redemption is already there too. This is the only thing that has not been declared Dogmatic.
And if this was so true then the word Trinity would not be in existence either because of the fact that it was so controversial. The teaching of the Trinity was already in the Church and already excepted by the Lay Faithful it was the attachment of calling it what it was and then making it Doctrinal and Dogmatic that was the problem, thereby leading to the Arian Heresy.
Did the Church then give into the ramblings of MANY not just a few back then either? No they did not and we have what we do today because they did not. Not all of th theologians and priests and Bishops agreed either back then, does that make the Trinity any less true? No it does not.
This analogy is to show you that we do not shy away from things because of the belief that people will not except TRUTH, and the fact remains the Church has already declared Mary, Mediatrix. This is already a Dogma of the Church. and the Doctrine of Co-redemption is already there too. This is the only thing that has not been declared Dogmatic.
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MysticRose
Guest
Actually Belief in our Mother and her role is required by the Church as an Act of Faith and that alone is a means to SalvationWho is speaking ill of a priest here? I did a quick search on the word priest, and it appears only my post could be loosely interpreted to be speaking ill of a priest. No matter what, the Church does not teach we have to have this devotion to Mary that the posters here seem to be espousing. Dogma? Yes, surely I believe everything we are taught about her.
I simply disagreed with the priest’s statement that if you don’t have a devotion to Mary, you can’t go to heaven. If that’s the worst thing someone says about that priest in his life, than surely he is a saint
And if you think I was speaking ill of a priest, you’d better visit some of the other threads active right now and speak up for these servants of God on those threads.
I should specifiy that it is in cooperation with Her son as she is subordinate but you must believe and have Faith in this … You are right it does not require that you Venerate Her as in prayer but the Church does require that we believe
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Penitent
Guest
And I don’t see one person here who doesn’t believe or who has said anything contrary to Marian dogma…I actually went so far as to repeat myself.
Penitent
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MysticRose
Guest
What do you believe and act of Faith is to the Lord? Would this not be an Act of Devotion?
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Penitent
Guest
I perform what I consider many acts of devotions to the Lord, beginning with spending for the most part an hour a day in adoration, outside of daily reception of Holy Communion (I’m self employed so it’s a luxury I’ve had the past few years)…without going into what I consider extremely private and personal, there are other acts under the direction of a spiritual director that I perform throughout the year, as well as daily recitation of the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, with many different intentions and not just babbling through it to get it done.
Like I said, I’m not going to spell out here my personal prayer life or my spiritual life, but I can assure you and I’m sure you will trust me, that my devotions to the Lord are regular, guided well, completely out of love straight from the heart AND willful, and hopefully, as pleasing to Him as a the sweetest smelling bouquet of flowers. I would certainly think He is more pleased with these daily devotional acts that come straight from my wounded heart than recitation of a rosary (and I do meditate on the rosary when I say it and have absolutely no problem doing so) in a rote fashion once a day because that’s what people think they should do.
Penitent
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MysticRose
Guest
The Lord said that to merely believe in Him was an act… so therefore belief in itself is is a work or an act…
Our Acts of Faith then are then means of showing by works or action in the belief we take in the doctrines and Dogmas set forth, that we are the Lay Faithful. That we are the Righteous ones, this is a means a showing our Devotion to the Lord, by merely believing in what He himself has deemed fit for us to believe.
Devotion does not have to include prayer it can merely mean that you are devoted by belief and Faith alone. And in this is our means of Salvation that we adhere and devote ourselves to all the teachings of the Church. So therefore by this alone, the statement the priest made that our Salvation as Catholics hinges on this is truthful.
Our Acts of Faith then are then means of showing by works or action in the belief we take in the doctrines and Dogmas set forth, that we are the Lay Faithful. That we are the Righteous ones, this is a means a showing our Devotion to the Lord, by merely believing in what He himself has deemed fit for us to believe.
Devotion does not have to include prayer it can merely mean that you are devoted by belief and Faith alone. And in this is our means of Salvation that we adhere and devote ourselves to all the teachings of the Church. So therefore by this alone, the statement the priest made that our Salvation as Catholics hinges on this is truthful.
W
Writer
Guest
I would concur with you again here. I have no problem with Mary as the New Eve or the Mother of God. I think Delorean Boy and Mystic Rose and getting excited over nothing here. I have and continue to defend Mary to others on a continual basis, but, in regards to “Co-Redemptrix”, I have to say, my friends, words mean things and as an English major I can accept the theology (or most of it, at least), but the term needs to go back to the drawing board; doesn’t work on any level. Now, if you either of you want to take a minute to read my article on the topic, that’d be great, but really I hav no interest in discussing “Co-Redemptrix” ad nauseum, and if you inisist I will put on my magic ring and disappear…
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MysticRose
Guest
Do You mean the ONE RING … You mean the one made and created by Who?
Well since I am the OP I think maybe I do have the right to discuss what I wish in this thread about the Mother Mary and since YOU did bring this subject up to begin with and all I did was answer you then I do NOT think it should be a problem for you to continue the discussion …
My question to you Writer is this, If you agree with the Teaching then why NOT call it what it is? Because it is CO-Redemptrix
A sword is piercing my My Mother’s Heart…
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ElizabethJoy
Guest
The key word is “discuss.” Other people will bring their own viewpoints into a discussion on a public bulletin board. Without that, you have a monologue.
And THAT was exactly Alan’s point, to begin with. That he’s willing to sit with the tax collectors and Pharisees, because that’s what Jesus did!
You’ve taken offense where none was intended and you accused him of derailing a thread that was already running on fifty different tracks when you posted it.
You say that you cannot judge another’s heart, but this you have done right here in this thread and your judgement is mistaken.
Your devotion to Mary might be exactly what is desired of us by Our Lord, but it appears that your devotion to fellow human beings falls a tad short of “love your neighbor as I have loved you.”
You say that when you are perfect, you will have to maybe give up your humility, which is to say that you have humility, now. “The funny thing about humility is that as soon as you claim to have it, you’ve lost it.” (C.S. Lewis?)
I would hazard a guess that our Blessed Mother would feel the browbeating of her other children as a sword through her Immaculate Heart - especially as it’s done in her name.
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MysticRose
Guest
You do not have to go to any special measures beyond what is expected of us normally by the Church. This means that you do not have to enter into private Devotion of the Mother, although anyone that has can tell you that it has only enriched their personal relationship with God.
You are required with Faith to all the teachings of the Church and therefore all doctrines and dogmans and even though something is not a dogma does not mean that it is free to be discarded …
It is still a requirement that we assent to doctrine as well.
Therefore the doctrine of of the Church of Co-remdemption of our Mother is supposed to be assented to and this is required of us.
You do not have to like it, but this is not a matter of Conscience as in a matter of morals it is a matter of doctrine which again requires assention.
You are required with Faith to all the teachings of the Church and therefore all doctrines and dogmans and even though something is not a dogma does not mean that it is free to be discarded …
It is still a requirement that we assent to doctrine as well.
Therefore the doctrine of of the Church of Co-remdemption of our Mother is supposed to be assented to and this is required of us.
You do not have to like it, but this is not a matter of Conscience as in a matter of morals it is a matter of doctrine which again requires assention.
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MysticRose
Guest
then you have inaccurately assessed my heart and my intent …The key word is “discuss.” Other people will bring their own viewpoints into a discussion on a public bulletin board. Without that, you have a monologue.
And THAT was exactly Alan’s point, to begin with. That he’s willing to sit with the tax collectors and Pharisees, because that’s what Jesus did!
You’ve taken offense where none was intended and you accused him of derailing a thread that was already running on fifty different tracks when you posted it.
You say that you cannot judge another’s heart, but this you have done right here in this thread and your judgement is mistaken.
Your devotion to Mary might be exactly what is desired of us by Our Lord, but it appears that your devotion to fellow human beings falls a tad short of “love your neighbor as I have loved you.”
You say that when you are perfect, you will have to maybe give up your humility, which is to say that you have humility, now. “The funny thing about humility is that as soon as you claim to have it, you’ve lost it.” (C.S. Lewis?)
I would hazard a guess that our Blessed Mother would feel the browbeating of her other children as a sword through her Immaculate Heart - especially as it’s done in her name.
Because I tell the Truth does not mean that I am not willing to discuss things and since if have taken the time to also write a PM to Alan and apologize to him, now it is you that is judging me and without cause.
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MysticRose
Guest
If I have offended anyone iun this thread then I am truly sorry it was not meant, please know that it was not my intention to offend or harm anyon in this thread merely to express the truth as I have been taught it by the Church.
Please understand I come from another board recently in which although we as Catholics are excepted into the Mainstream Christian Community it is an ever present fight to remain there. Apologetics at TBTSNBN is something that is proably completely different than it is here. It is definitely Argument and then counter-Argument. Very rarely is it civilized in it’s format so that it resembles discussion. After awhile I guess you get used to automatic responses to when people react certain ways. The formatting there is different because of the nature of the site as well, whereas in our area of the board over there YOU must be in assention to the Holy See in order to debate, otherwise all you may do is ask questions and fellowship post.
So please forgive me if I appear to be rude. I will work on toning down my responses.
Pax Christi
Debi
Please understand I come from another board recently in which although we as Catholics are excepted into the Mainstream Christian Community it is an ever present fight to remain there. Apologetics at TBTSNBN is something that is proably completely different than it is here. It is definitely Argument and then counter-Argument. Very rarely is it civilized in it’s format so that it resembles discussion. After awhile I guess you get used to automatic responses to when people react certain ways. The formatting there is different because of the nature of the site as well, whereas in our area of the board over there YOU must be in assention to the Holy See in order to debate, otherwise all you may do is ask questions and fellowship post.
So please forgive me if I appear to be rude. I will work on toning down my responses.
Pax Christi
Debi
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