Marian Dogma .... required or emotional attachment?

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MysticRose:
Do You mean the ONE RING … You mean the one made and created by Who?

Well since I am the OP I think maybe I do have the right to discuss what I wish in this thread about the Mother Mary and since YOU did bring this subject up to begin with and all I did was answer you then I do NOT think it should be a problem for you to continue the discussion …

My question to you Writer is this, If you agree with the Teaching then why NOT call it what it is? Because it is CO-Redemptrix

A sword is piercing my My Mother’s Heart…
Mystic, funny intro. I must admit that I forgot that you began the thread. It’s been meandering for so long, I’m afraid I lost touch with it’s origins. Look, before I take my leave here, let me clarify a few things. I believe in much, if not most, of the thelogy behind “Co-Redemptrix”, but the title does not work in explaining its subject. In fact, I would turn it around… Because Mary’s importance is anchored solely in the divine personhood of her Son, Jesus Christ, I show Mary greater respect perhaps than you realize, because I am honoring her through her son. This may be a little complicated, but if you take the time to labor through my (rough draft) article, it may make more sense to you. One might argue that your approach is similar to speaking to a reflection of a person rather than the person himself–doesn’t quite work, but it catches the train of thought I am getting at.

I have defended the Catholic Church on its Marian doctrines to some incredibly anti-Catholic folks, but I simply draw the line at this title. I take offense at foks questioning my beliefs here–I get enough of that from my Protestant family members to be honest. I would like to lastly add that my opinions are my own, however, they have been arrived at after much prayer, reading, and discussions with priests and religious brothers. I was also (indirectly) in discussions on the topic with a bishop in the southwest via a converting family member. So, it is not as if that approach this issue flippantly. Farewell for now!

PS. Lastly, one of the reasons I try to avoid “Co-Redemptrix” now is because of the terms connection to the cultural identity of some groups. No matter what I say, some will declare me wrong, because I am (they perceive) insulting their culture. That has never been my intention. Rather than beat a dead horse repeatedly, I’d like to venture on with more interesting topics of our faith.
 
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Writer:
Mystic, funny intro. I must admit that I forgot that you began the thread. It’s been meandering for so long, I’m afraid I lost touch with it’s origins. Look, before I take my leave here, let me clarify a few things. I believe in much, if not most, of the thelogy behind “Co-Redemptrix”, but the title does not work in explaining its subject. In fact, I would turn it around… Because Mary’s importance is anchored solely in the divine personhood of her Son, Jesus Christ, I show Mary greater respect perhaps than you realize, because I am honoring her through her son. This may be a little complicated, but if you take the time to labor through my (rough draft) article, it may make more sense to you. One might argue that your approach is similar to speaking to a reflection of a person rather than the person himself–doesn’t quite work, but it catches the train of thought I am getting at.

I have defended the Catholic Church on its Marian doctrines to some incredibly anti-Catholic folks, but I simply draw the line at this title. I take offense at foks questioning my beliefs here–I get enough of that from my Protestant family members to be honest. I would like to lastly add that my opinions are my own, however, they have been arrived at after much prayer, reading, and discussions with priests and religious brothers. I was also (indirectly) in discussions on the topic with a bishop in the southwest via a converting family member. So, it is not as if that approach this issue flippantly. Farewell for now!

PS. Lastly, one of the reasons I try to avoid “Co-Redemptrix” now is because of the terms connection to the cultural identity of some groups. No matter what I say, some will declare me wrong, because I am (they perceive) insulting their culture. That has never been my intention. Rather than beat a dead horse repeatedly, I’d like to venture on with more interesting topics of our faith.
Writer thank you for the responses that you have given … I will leave you with this thought though, do not look in the dictionary, but look to the Church for the defintion of Co- in the Wording of Co-Redemtrix and then tell me why you still have an aversion to using it by the defintion given by the Church … I hope that we can continue to discuss this as I do wish to hear your point of view and Yes I did read you site and I am still reading it… That is precisely why I posted that way…
 
PS. Lastly, one of the reasons I try to avoid “Co-Redemptrix” now is because of the terms connection to the cultural identity of some groups. No matter what I say, some will declare me wrong, because I am (they perceive) insulting their culture. That has never been my intention. Rather than beat a dead horse repeatedly, I’d like to venture on with more interesting topics of our faith.
I didn’t know that we were supposed to worry about offending someone’s culture now as Catholics simply because of the Truth, I thought that we were supposed to educate them as to our beliefs that go along with it so that it would not be taken as offensive.

There are many times that I have defended this subject time and time again and thought of it the way you do, as beating a dead horse, but the truth be told, it is not beating a dead horse if just one new person learns something informational in anyway about our Mother and has come to Blessed because of the information they have recieved here … Then it is all worthwhile
 
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MysticRose:
then you have inaccurately assessed my heart and my intent …

Because I tell the Truth does not mean that I am not willing to discuss things and since if have taken the time to also write a PM to Alan and apologize to him, now it is you that is judging me and without cause.
MysticRose,

You are absolutely right. If I have inaccurately assessed your heart and intent and/or caused you unhappiness, then I apologize. I see you have about 49 posts, and just joined a couple days ago. I’m terribly sorry because for some reason your handle sounded familiar and I judged you as if you were a seasoned veteran of this forum and had a little better idea about how we normally write around here.

Anyway, welcome to the forums. I hope you don’t mind me taking this particular tangent because at this point I think it’s up to you to redirect it or maybe start a new one.

I feel better now. My wife gave me a couple valiums (no worry my psychiatrist allows it PRN especially per her observations) and I slept all afternoon. I really don’t know what got into me, and I hope whatever it is won’t come back.

Again, welcome to the forums, and please feel free to critique anything I say or the manner in which I say it, and I will try to do better at receiving it in the loving fashion it was intended.

Alan

[edit]P.S. I have been in contact with ElizabethJoy via PM regarding judging you, so I think we’re all straightened out now.

Funny. It’s 9:00 PM and as I typed that PS I heard Taps playing at McConnell AFB across the street. Maybe it’s time for me to take another break!
 
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AlanFromWichita:
MysticRose,

You are absolutely right. If I have inaccurately assessed your heart and intent and/or caused you unhappiness, then I apologize. I see you have about 49 posts, and just joined a couple days ago. I’m terribly sorry because for some reason your handle sounded familiar and I judged you as if you were a seasoned veteran of this forum and had a little better idea about how we normally write around here.

Anyway, welcome to the forums. I hope you don’t mind me taking this particular tangent because at this point I think it’s up to you to redirect it or maybe start a new one.

I feel better now. My wife gave me a couple valiums (no worry my psychiatrist allows it PRN especially per her observations) and I slept all afternoon. I really don’t know what got into me, and I hope whatever it is won’t come back.

Again, welcome to the forums, and please feel free to critique anything I say or the manner in which I say it, and I will try to do better at receiving it in the loving fashion it was intended.

Alan

[edit]P.S. I have been in contact with ElizabethJoy via PM regarding judging you, so I think we’re all straightened out now.

Funny. It’s 9:00 PM and as I typed that PS I heard Taps playing at McConnell AFB across the street. Maybe it’s time for me to take another break!
Dear Alan,
Thank you so much for your warm PM and for Welcoming me to the forums it is much appreciated … And believe it or not there was not that much to apologize for on your behalf … It is I that was out of line with you. I did show a great lack of humility and charity yesterday which is unusual for me as well, so I guess we just both caught each other on a bad day that is all… 🙂

Please Brother know that I had no INTENT to harm you with my harsh words and if I could I would take back the harsh way that I said them to you, as that is no way to be able to get anyone to see the Love and Graces of the Lord and our Blessed Mother.

The Truth must always be tempered with Love and I was not Discerning enough yesterday to see my error for this I pray the Lord forgives this sinner …

Lovingly In Christ
Debi
 
My posts throughout this Forum have been heavy-handed. And I beg your forgiveness for that…

And I have tried, not very successfully, to sort of back away for a while.

A friend of mine described me as the kind of guy who might be enjoying a quiet drink … when a nearby group might be having a discussion of how big an acre of land is… it’s this big by that big sort of thing… from here to the corner and across and over and back… But one of them might turn to me, a stranger, and ask me… hey, how big is an acre… and I’m the kind of guy, who instead of comparing it to a football field would say simply: 43,560 square feet. And the effect would be to stop the whole pleasant discussion.

I once was fortunate enough to have a spiritual director… a senior pastor… very responsible guy who had had some very reponsible heavy-duty positions… and one day, I said that I had to confess that I had no “feeling” for the Blessed Mother. What he said was, “say the rosary”… So I started saying the rosary on a regular basis… No special spiritual readings… No holy cards…incomplete at times, sometimes rushed… but, just meditations on young Mary’s most incredible relationship with the Infinite God and how she lived with Jesus. And how she became the Mother of God…

… to me… the Incarnation is the most wondrous mystery of all of them… that The Infinity would allow Himself to become FINITE… it defies all logic… and all the mathematics of infinity… And Mary was THE intimate partner of the Infinite… to carry out this plan, this mission… this is utterly amazing…astonishing…

And after what was just a short time, a few days or a few weeks, no more than that… Mary became MY mother… and more than that…I knew her better than I knew my own mother…a stronger feeling, a warmer feeling… I had this feeling…can’t explain it… No visions. No apparitions. No voices. No scent of roses… No gold rosary beads. Just a feeling. No elegant words… Just a feeling…

We can read and we can define and we can come up with new words… I do that all the time… but what I’m going to suggest is just carve out a few minutes… maybe in the car before driving home from work… or stop off at a church… or go into a room and close the door for a few minutes … just say the rosary…
 
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MysticRose:
Please Brother know that I had no INTENT to harm you with my harsh words and if I could I would take back the harsh way that I said them to you, as that is no way to be able to get anyone to see the Love and Graces of the Lord and our Blessed Mother.
You have made that intent clear here, and PM. I do not wish you had written anything different, for I trust God led us to this point for a reason.

I’ve been told my charity level has been going down lately, and not just by you. I guess that means I’m not filtering the filth that is evidently in my heart well enough. Please don’t tell me I’m wrong or it will just build my pride and I won’t believe you anyway. 😦
The Truth must always be tempered with Love and I was not Discerning enough yesterday to see my error for this I pray the Lord forgives this sinner …
Lovingly In Christ
Debi
The Lord works in mysterious ways. I believe the Holy Spirit pretty much has everything under control.

The work I have been trying to do on these forums to learn how to converse with people who have strong opinions against mine is still ongoing. However, my “grand delusions” as I call them to do my part to bring about World Peace and Catholic Unity are fading. I’m not so sure how well I fit here.

For some reason I have had like no feelings or emotions at all today. I’ve felt very empty and rather indifferent toward everything. I’m not sure what this means, but I alternate between enjoying the emotional piece and feelings separated from everybody.

One thing I have noticed, is that there just is no payoff to arguing with an orthodox over whether I’m “really” a Catholic. This seems to be such a big issue it is difficult to discuss rationally. I’m not talking about you, now, although I incorrectly included you in that group. Since I have little regard for what names people call me, I not longer will ask that I be regarded as Catholic by those who are offended by the idea that I would dare wear that label. Honestly this has nothing to do with you, but with many things that all came together today. Please do not feel sorry for me or consider this a downgrade of any sort, as I see this as a new direction that may help me do a better job of God’s work. Out of courtesy to the orthodox, I will call myself agnostic rather Catholic; that way I don’t have to worry about being a hypocrite. (Just a heretic. 😃 )

Alan
 
Al Masetti:
My posts throughout this Forum have been heavy-handed. And I beg your forgiveness for that…

And I have tried, not very successfully, to sort of back away for a while.

A friend of mine described me as the kind of guy who might be enjoying a quiet drink … when a nearby group might be having a discussion of how big an acre of land is… it’s this big by that big sort of thing… from here to the corner and across and over and back… But one of them might turn to me, a stranger, and ask me… hey, how big is an acre… and I’m the kind of guy, who instead of comparing it to a football field would say simply: 43,560 square feet. And the effect would be to stop the whole pleasant discussion.

I once was fortunate enough to have a spiritual director… a senior pastor… very responsible guy who had had some very reponsible heavy-duty positions… and one day, I said that I had to confess that I had no “feeling” for the Blessed Mother. What he said was, “say the rosary”… So I started saying the rosary on a regular basis… No special spiritual readings… No holy cards…incomplete at times, sometimes rushed… but, just meditations on young Mary’s most incredible relationship with the Infinite God and how she lived with Jesus. And how she became the Mother of God…

… to me… the Incarnation is the most wondrous mystery of all of them… that The Infinity would allow Himself to become FINITE… it defies all logic… and all the mathematics of infinity… And Mary was THE intimate partner of the Infinite… to carry out this plan, this mission… this is utterly amazing…astonishing…

And after what was just a short time, a few days or a few weeks, no more than that… Mary became MY mother… and more than that…I knew her better than I knew my own mother…a stronger feeling, a warmer feeling… I had this feeling…can’t explain it… No visions. No apparitions. No voices. No scent of roses… No gold rosary beads. Just a feeling. No elegant words… Just a feeling…

We can read and we can define and we can come up with new words… I do that all the time… but what I’m going to suggest is just carve out a few minutes… maybe in the car before driving home from work… or stop off at a church… or go into a room and close the door for a few minutes … just say the rosary…
First I want to say that I guess I post in much the same way you do, very unemotionally, logically and to the point. Most people assume the same of me as well.

When I first came back to the Church, I had a very hard time with the Marian Doctrines and Dogmas because of the upbringing and religious education that I had. In this I was taught literally that any type of Veneration towards Mary in anyway, was indeed actually Worship that was only to be given to the Lord alone. So, therefore I was taught that the Catholic Teachings on our Blessed Mother were idolatry, which is forbidden expressly in the Bible. This of course was something that was a huge abstacle for me to get over at first, what is more to even believe in the Saints was an obstacle, no less Mary and the hyper-dulia we render to her.

Then one day, last year actually around this time, My Uncle died in July of last year, and one of the women that I met online at another forum and I were talking on the phone because I was having a really bad crisis of Faith. I was questioning everything and why did I actually believe, and more importantly why did I believe at all in God. My Uncle was a good man, and one that had accomplished a great deal in the past seven years of his life especially and he helped a great many people, You would have thought he would have been more useful here than with the Lord and I wanted to know why the Lord was so selfish to bring him home…

So my friend, helped me by helping me to understand Our Mother. At first I never thought in a million years this would be an approach that would work, and as was stated before in this thread by Penitent, I actually had a horrible and abusive relationship with my own Mother, so trusting women was not my strong suit and in fact coming to trust my friend had taken me a long time.

First she started me out doing as you suggested, just saying the rosary everyday, and in fact what she would do is to call me everyday to make sure that I did and if I did not (which most times in the beginning I didn’t), then she would sit on the phone with me and go through the whole rosary with me. She taught me differnt prayers dedicated to Our Mother and different names of Our Mother and their meanings reading me the stories that she had found online. (By this time I had decided to take a long hiatus from the computer totally)
 
Then she asked me to read some books on the life of Mary, so at the time I went and asked my priest if they had them at the Church and he said that I could take them and read them. One of those books was " the Trut Devotion to Mary". And even with this we would read it and discuss this together for hours everyday.

With each day, I felt more calm and more at ease with the decision that God had made realizing that my Uncle was in His care now and that he was being cared for hopefully by My Mother as well, as she was looking after me at that time by sending to me the appropriate person to help me in my prayer life, to guide me and to shelter me. I realized what a joy and glory she must be to her Son to bring Him such Beauty all the time in her Glorification of Him in her work with us, in her benevolence with the world… In the Unique ability of the Grace bestowed upon her alone.

She gave me the ability to see the world and my Brethren in it in a whole other line of thinking and sight I never thought imaginable, and she helped in opening up my relationship with her Son and the Father so that I never feel alone anymore even when I am alone. I honestly believe that I have a complete faimly now, which was something that I lacked for such a long time. I am at Peace and that is her mission Peace in accordance with the will of her Son and His Father … The Holy Spirit truly has blessed me to open my eyes in such a beautious and wonderous way …

Pax Christi
Debi
 
This is all made up, so if there is a theological problem, please inform me and I will adjust.

When Jesus said he calls us His friends, because we know His Father’s business (and knowing Him is to know his father) then he made it clear we can at some point say “we know” Him.

(According to one pseudo-secular theorist, “knowledge” is the recombining of that which was separated so another way to see that he is reuniting us with the Father through Himself.)

Yes, we can call Him friends.

Technically we can call Him Brother, since he adopted us into His family, and of course which He supports by telling us we dare pray to “our” Father in heaven.

IMO based mostly on wishy washy feelings, the culmination of the symbology that completes our brotherhood with Christ hits me most directly when Christ says to the disciple who loves Him (and which of us do not aspire to be such a disciple) that This is your Mother, and This is your son.

Here He makes it official that He intends to share His mother, entrusting her to one of his human disciples for care.

Collectively if we are all the disciples Christ loves, or at least wannabees thereof, then why can’t we also hear Christ when He says, “My friend, here is your Mother.”

We all have a phsyical mother. Christ gave us this spiritual mother. In doing so, we became officially and completely brothers and friends, with everything we need to be united with Him.

So profound was this moment that Jesus only said “I thirst” and “It is finished” in the rest of His time on earth. Clearly the Bible intends to convey at least in the book of John that the official giving away of His mother (which reminds me of a father giving away his bride but I haven’t thought that through so don’[t hold me to it) is really the climax of everything.

What Greater News could there be, that we are not only officially friends of Jesus, but that we are officially brothers, and have the same spiritual parents both Mother and Father?

At least that’s my silly view. Ducking for cover now. “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain”

Alan

John 19 said:
26 When Jesus saw his mother 11 and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. 28 After this, aware that everything was now finished, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled, 12 Jesus said, “I thirst.” 29 There was a vessel filled with common wine. 13 So they put a sponge soaked in wine on a sprig of hyssop and put it up to his mouth. 30 14 When Jesus had taken the wine, he said, “It is finished.” And bowing his head, he handed over the spirit. [edit] Doesn’t this make a neat way to combine the emotional impact of the occasion with the theological fact that sharing His mother was his last act to fulfill the scripture, or am I just all wet as an apologist wannabee?
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Out of courtesy to the orthodox, I will call myself agnostic rather Catholic; that way I don’t have to worry about being a hypocrite. (Just a heretic. 😃 )

Alan
Are you okay? I’m worried. I find it distressing to think that you could decide not to call yourself Catholic because some stupid thing (not on this thread) that someone or some group said. Regardless of your reasons, I think it could have an emotional or spiritual impact on you to change what you call yourself. I know you might say you are the same, but our self-designations are meaningful, and we structure our choice of words, and hence sometimes our thoughts around them. I’m fussing, I know. Is everything okay? Maybe this should be a PM, but I don’t use those much.

-------> Worried Ol’ Pug <---------
 
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Pug:
Are you okay? I’m worried. I find it distressing to think that you could decide not to call yourself Catholic because some stupid thing (not on this thread) that someone or some group said. Regardless of your reasons, I think it could have an emotional or spiritual impact on you to change what you call yourself. I know you might say you are the same, but our self-designations are meaningful, and we structure our choice of words, and hence sometimes our thoughts around them. I’m fussing, I know. Is everything okay? Maybe this should be a PM, but I don’t use those much.

-------> Worried Ol’ Pug <---------
Thank you for the concern.

This is nothing compared to some of the moodswings I have endured in the past few years. I’m actually feeling extraordinary stable, but I do sometimes get carried away. I’m the penultimate people pleaser; I try to offend no one unless I think they are holding themselves above me in which case I guess all bets are off. Only recently have I had the wherewithal to stand up for my own opinions against other who may be less correct but stronger willed, and I’m still trying to get used to how to use it without exacting collateral damage. 🙂

Since I posted this, I changed my designation yet again to “Catholic-ish.” I figured that’s a label that neither the unitive Catholics (such as myself 😃 ) and the divisive Catholics (such as those I designate as such 😉 ) should be able to find a problem with.

I can assure you, plenty of people on this forum are very supportive of me, even when I get carried away. MysticRose rocks. You rock. How can we not, when we all are parts of the Body? Some of those polls I recently took should hopefully help us realize that a post we find bothersome does not mean the poster is against us. 👍

Alan
 
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Penitent:
What I’ve attempted to say is I don’t need to go through Mary to get closer to her Son–I’ve been blessed in my relationship with the Lord. And I don’t think He withholds Himself until we ask His mother to intercede. Some people I do believe benefit from more a devotion to Mary than others, and I guess I fit into the “other” category. And what do you mean by saying, “believe in the Mother of God.” I believe she is the Mother of God. I believe she looks at each of us as her children–but just as many children are highly independnet and not as “clingy” to their mothers, so it must be with us children and our spiritual mother. I’m not taking anything away from anyone or away from her beauty and goodness…I’m just saying it’s possible to know who she is, to value her, but to just not have the devotion that many seem to have and feel is required.

My prayers never go unheard by God…never. I can recognize Him in any situation, in any happening, in everything in my day. He hears me and He answers me…perhaps my recognition of this is the reason I for the most part go directly to Him with minimal requests for intercession by saints or St. Mary. Or, like I said in another thread, maybe she did a good job of leading me to her Son without my asking…

Penitent
You have just expressed exactly how I feel, though I have to add that it took a while for me to accept the assumption and immaculate conception, but I always left myself open for that change of heart, and it happened. I do believe that Mary is a perfect example for us with regard to following Christ and that all generations should call her blessed. However, my desire is to get to heaven when I die, and I don’t see how Marian dogma will help me to acheive that. Christ redeemed my sins, and I will work toward my salvation with fear and trembling. Mary did not die on the cross for me. She is a blessed, obedient special woman, but she is not divine. Jesus never said that I had to go through his mother to get to Him. I do understand how some people benefit from Marian devotion, and only hope that I am understood, as well.

Peace,
Sherilo
 
PRACTICAL COUNSELS CONCERNING THE
SPIRIT OF THE HOLY SLAVERY

Not More Perfect to Go Straight to Jesus without Mary
  1. Beware, predestinate soul, of believing that it is more perfect to go straight to Jesus, straight to God. Without Mary, your action and your intention will be of little value; but if you go to God through Mary, your work will be Mary’s work, and consequently it will be sublime and most worthy of God.
Source: The Secret of Mary, by St. Louis Marie de Montfort, published by Montfort Publications, Bay Shore, New York 11706, bearing the Imprimi potest, Nihil obstat and Imprimatur of the Catholic Church, pages 14, 38, 39.

The Secret of Mary online at EWTN.

UBI PRIMUM
  1. … Great indeed is Our trust in Mary. The resplendent glory of her merits, far exceeding all the choirs of angels, elevates her to the very steps of the throne of God.[1] Her foot has crushed the head of Satan. Set up between Christ and His Church,[2] Mary, ever lovable and full of grace, always has delivered the Christian people from their greatest calamities and from the snares and assaults of all their enemies, ever rescuing them from ruin.
  2. And likewise in our own day, Mary, with the ever merciful affection so characteristic of her maternal heart, wishes, through her efficacious intercession with God, to deliver her children from the sad and grief-laden troubles, from the tribulations, the anxiety, the difficulties, and the punishments of God’s anger which afflict the world because of the sins of men. Wishing to restrain and to dispel the violent hurricane of evils which, as We lament from the bottom of Our heart, are everywhere afflicting the Church, Mary desires to transform Our sadness into joy. The foundation of all Our confidence, as you know well, Venerable Brethren, is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. For, God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.[3]
Source: UBI PRIMUM, (On the Immaculate Conception of Mary), Encyclical of Pope Pius IX, February 2, 1849.

OCTOBRI MENSE
  1. …With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ.[6] Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother. …
  2. … Faithful to the religious example of our fathers, let us have recourse to Mary, our holy Sovereign. Let us entreat, let us beseech, with one heart, Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, our Mother. “Show thyself to be a mother; cause our prayers to be accepted by Him Who, born for us, consented to be thy Son.”[7]
  3. Jn 1.17.
  4. Ex sacr. liturg.
Source: OCTOBRI MENSE (On the Rosary), Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, promulgated on September 22, 1891.

MAGNAE DEI MATRIS
  1. When we have recourse to Mary in prayer, we are having recourse to the Mother of mercy, who is so well disposed toward us that, whatever the necessity that presses upon us especially in attaining eternal life, she is instantly at our side of her own accord, even though she has not been invoked. She dispenses grace with a generous hand from that treasure with which from the beginning she was divinely endowed in fullest abundance that she might be worthy to be the Mother of God. By the fullness of grace which confers on her the most illustrious of her many titles, the Blessed Virgin is infinitely superior to all the hierarchies of men and angels, the one creature who is closest of all to Christ. “It is a great thing in any saint to have grace sufficient for the salvation of many souls; but to have enough to suffice for the salvation of everybody in the world is the greatest of all; and this is found in Christ and in the Blessed Virgin.”[1]
  2. St. Thomas Aquinas, Super Salut. Ang.
Source: MAGNAE DEI MATRIS (On the Rosary), Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on September 8, 1892.
 

IUCUNDA SEMPER EXPECTATIONE
  1. If in all this series of Mysteries, Venerable Brethren, are developed the counsels of God in regard to us – “counsels of wisdom and of tenderness” (St. Bernard) – not less apparent is the greatness of the benefits for which we are debtors to the Virgin Mother. No man can meditate upon these without feeling a new awakening in his heart of confidence that he will certainly obtain through Mary the fullness of the mercies of God. And to this end vocal prayer chimes well with the Mysteries. First, as is meet and right, comes the Lord’s Prayer, addressed to Our Father in Heaven: and having, with the elect petitions dictated by Our Divine Master, called upon the Father, from the throne of His Majesty we turn our prayerful voices to Mary. Thus is confirmed that law of merciful meditation of which We have spoken, and which St. Bernardine of Siena thus expresses: “Every grace granted to man has three degrees in order; for by God it is communicated to Christ, from Christ it passes to the Virgin, and from the Virgin it descends to us.”
Source: IUCUNDA SEMPER EXPECTATIONE (On the Rosary), Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII promulgated on September 8, 1894.

ADIUTRICEM
  1. It is impossible to measure the power and scope of her offices since the day she was taken up to that height of heavenly glory in the company of her Son, to which the dignity and luster of her merits entitle her. From her heavenly abode she began, by God’s decree, to watch over the Church, to assist and befriend us as our Mother; so that she who was so intimately associated with the mystery of human salvation is just as closely associated with the distribution of the graces which for all time will flow from the Redemption.
  2. The power thus put into her hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help as though impelled by an instinct of nature, confidently sharing with her their future hopes and past achievements, their sorrows and joys, commending themselves like children to the care of a bountiful mother. How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as “our Lady, our Mediatrix,”[3] “the Reparatrix of the whole world,”[4] “the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts.”[5]
  3. Since faith is the foundation, the source, of the gifts of God by which man is raised above the order of nature and is endowed with the dispositions requisite for life eternal, we are in justice bound to recognize the hidden influence of Mary in obtaining the gift of faith and its salutary cultivation - of Mary who brought the “author of faith”[6] into this world and who, because of her own great faith, was called “blessed.” “O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee; none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee.”[7]
  4. St. Bernard, Serm.II in Adv.
  5. St. Tharasius, Orat. in Praesentatione.
  6. On Off. Graec., 8 Dec.
  7. Hebr. 12:1.
  8. St. Germ. Constantinop., Orat. 11, in Dortnitione B.M.V.
Source: ADIUTRICEM (On the Rosary), Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII, promulgated on September 5, 1895.

AD DIEM ILLUM LAETISSIMUM
  1. … And from this community of will and suffering between Christ and Mary she merited to become most worthily the Reparatrix of the lost world (Eadmeri Mon. De Excellentia Virg. Mariae, c. 9) and Dispensatrix of all the gifts that Our Savior purchased for us by His Death and by His Blood.
  2. … Nevertheless, by this companionship in sorrow and suffering already mentioned between the Mother and the Son, it has been allowed to the august Virgin to be the most powerful mediatrix and advocate of the whole world with her Divine Son (Pius IX. Ineffabilis). …
  3. We are then, it will be seen, very far from attributing to the Mother of God a productive power of grace–a power which belongs to God alone. Yet, since Mary carries it over all in holiness and union with Jesus Christ, and has been associated by Jesus Christ in the work of redemption, she merits for us “de congruo,” in the language of theologians, what Jesus Christ merits for us “de condigno,” and she is the supreme Minister of the distribution of graces. Jesus “sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high” (Hebrews i. b.). Mary sitteth at the right hand of her Son—a refuge so secure and a help so trusty against all dangers that we have nothing to fear or to despair of under her guidance, her patronage, her protection. (Pius IX. in Bull Ineffabilis).
 
  1. … Those, alas! furnish us by their conduct with a peremptory proof of it, who seduced by the wiles of the demon or deceived by false doctrines think they can do without the help of the Virgin. Hapless are they who neglect Mary under pretext of the honor to be paid to Jesus Christ! …
Source: AD DIEM ILLUM LAETISSIMUM (On the Immaculate Conception), Encyclical of Pope Pius X, February 2, 1904.

THE APOSTOLIC LETTER INTER SODALICIA, 1918

The congregation of the Holy Office, in the decree Sunt quos amor, of June 26,1913, praised the custom of calling Mary Coredemptress; and on January 22, 1914, it affixed an indulgence to a prayer to which Mary is called Coredemptress of the human race. The role of Mary in Christ’s redeeming sacrifice is developed by Pope Benedict XV (1914-22) in his apostolic letter Inter Sodalicia, March 22, 1918.

As she suffered and almost died together with her suffering and dying Son, so she surrendered her mother’s rights over her Son for the salvation of the human race. And to satisfy the justice of God she sacrificed her Son, as well as she could, so that it may justly be said that she together with Christ has redeemed the human race.

Source: The Church Teaches, published by the Jesuit fathers of St. Mary’s College, bearing the IMPRIMI POTEST, NIHIL OBSTAT, AND IMPRIMATUR of the Catholic Church, pages 210-211.

Also from Pope Benedict XV in Inter Sodalicia:

It is for this reason that all graces contained in the treasury of the Redemption are given to us through the hands of the same sorrowful Virgin.

Source: Introduction to Mary, by Mark Miravalles, S.T.D., published by Queenship Publishing Company, P.O. Box 42028, Santa Barbara, CA. 93140-2028, page 76.

MISERENTISSIMUS REDEMPTOR
  1. … And now lastly may the most benign Virgin Mother of God smile on this purpose and on these desires of ours; for since she brought forth for us Jesus our Redeemer, and nourished Him, and offered Him as a victim by the Cross, by her mystic union with Christ and His very special grace she likewise became and is piously called a reparatress. Trusting in her intercession with Christ, who whereas He is the “one mediator of God and men” (1 Timothy ii, 5), chose to make His Mother the advocate of sinners, and the minister and mediatress of grace, …
Source: MISERENTISSIMUS REDEMPTOR, (On Reparation To The Sacred Heart), Encyclical of Pope Pius XI, May 8th, 1928.

CARITATE CHRISTI COMPULSI
  1. … Let them pray to Him [Jesus], interposing likewise the powerful patronage of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mediatrix of all graces, for themselves and for their families, for their country, for the Church; …
Source: CARITATE CHRISTI COMPULSI (On the Sacred Heart), Encyclical of Pope Pius XI promulgated on May 3, 1932.

Thousands of souls perish because Mary is withheld from them. It is the miserable unworthy shadow which we call our devotion to the Blessed Virgin, that is the cause of all these wants and blights, these evils and omissions and declines. Yet, if we are to believe the revelations of the saints, God is pressing for a greater, a wider, a stronger, quite another devotion to His Blessed Mother.

Source: True Devotion to Mary, by St. Louis De Montfort, translated by Fr. Frederick Faber, published by Tan Books and Publishers Inc., copyright 1941 by the Fathers of the Company of Mary, Library of Congress Catalog Card No.: 85-50571, ISBN 0-89555-279-5, Preface by Faber, p. xxii.

From the Vatican’s Catechism of the Catholic Church:

969 … “Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
 
“The Pope, at the beginning of his episcopal service in St. Peter’s Chair in Rome, wishes to entrust the Church particularly to her in whom there was accomplished the stupendous and complete victory of good over evil, of love over hatred, of grace over sin; to her of whom Paul VI said that she is ’ the beginning of the better world;’ to the Blessed Virgin. He entrusts to her himself, as the servant of servants, and all those whom he serves, all those who serve with him. He entrusts to her the Roman Church, as token and principle of all the churches in the world, in their universal unity. He entrusts it to her and offers it to her as her property.” – Insegnamenti Giovanni Paolo II (1978), (Vatican City: Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 313)

Source: TOTUS TUUS, by Arthur Burton Calkins, pages 21 and 27, Academy of the Immaculate, New Bedford, Massachusetts, ISBN 0-9635345-0-5, bearing the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur of the Catholic Church.

Dignity and Duties of the Priest

And if, on account of the moral necessity of Mary’s intercession for all, every Christian ought to be devoted to the Mother of God, how much more should priests, who are bound by greater obligations, and stand in need of greater graces for salvation, practise devotion in her honor! We priests should remain always at the feet of Mary, asking the aid of her prayers. St. Francis Borgia had great doubts about the salvation of those that have not a special devotion to Mary; because, according to St. Antonine, he who expects graces from God without the intercession of Mary attempts to fly without wings. St. Anselm has gone so far as to say: “It is impossible to be saved if we turn away from thee, O Mary.” St. Bonaventure has said the same: “He that neglects her will die in his sins.” Blessed Albertus Magnus says: 'The people that do not serve thee will perish." And speaking of Mary, Richard of St. Laurence says: “All those whom this ship does not receive are lost in the sea [pg. 414] of this world.” But, on the other hand, he who is faithful in the service of Mary will be certainly saved.** “Oh Mother of God,” says St. John Damascene, “if I put my confidence in you I shall be saved. If I am under your protection I have nothing to fear; for to be devoted to you is to have certain arms of salvation which God gives only to those whose salvation he wills in a special manner.”**
Source: Dignity and Duties of the Priest, by St. Alphonsus De Liguori, published by the Redemptorist Fathers, copyright Very Rev. James Barron, C.SS.R., 1927, bearing the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur of the Catholic Church, pages 413, 414.
 
**Our Salvation **does rest on the acceptance of and belief in Our Mother as is taught by the One Holy Apostolic Church and in all of Her teachings, Traditions, Doctrines, and Dogmas on the Blessed Mother.

Pax Christi
Debi
 
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sherilo:
You have just expressed exactly how I feel, though I have to add that it took a while for me to accept the assumption and immaculate conception, but I always left myself open for that change of heart, and it happened. I do believe that Mary is a perfect example for us with regard to following Christ and that all generations should call her blessed. However, my desire is to get to heaven when I die, and I don’t see how Marian dogma will help me to acheive that. Christ redeemed my sins, and I will work toward my salvation with fear and trembling. Mary did not die on the cross for me. She is a blessed, obedient special woman, but she is not divine. Jesus never said that I had to go through his mother to get to Him. I do understand how some people benefit from Marian devotion, and only hope that I am understood, as well.

Peace,
Sherilo
Sherillo, I think that I understand perfectly what is being sai by both you and Penitent. I am not in any manner discounting the fact that we should have a relationship of which is unique with the Lord and all our own. What I am saying and I think has been misunderstood by some is that these things that I talking about are not things that require emotional attachment, they simply require assention.

These are our Teachings they are doctrinal and Dogmatic. They cannot be discarded simply because someone does not have an emotional attachment with the Mother. No one is saying that anyone is required to enter into personal devotion with the Mother. What is expected of us though is what is expected of all of us. That is the normal devotion that is given to her. That is all that is required of any of us at anytime.

I too had a hard time understanding and accepting things, I accept them and understand them much better now because I chose to enter into personal devotion to her at a point in my life where I would have tried anything. It was then I realized how much I had missed out on because I had not entered into this before and closed myself off to it because of old teachings and misconceptions that I hung onto…

I had someone tell me a story once and may be this will help you…

Say one day you had to go to the king, and in doing so you had to bring with you an offering for the king… Well from your crops that year, the harvest was bad, and the apples that you had were small and they were bruised, and just in general unappetizing to look at. But see this king he is a really good king and he requires so little of you as it is, and so therefore you feel so bad bringing to him these apples, and you know that he will accept them anyway because he will understand but you want to do so much more…

Well there in the window is the Mother of the King, and you know that the Mother, if she brings him the apples, she will make sure that they are cleaned up and that they look so appetizing to him that he will relish those apples because they came from not only you but simply because of hw much he loves his Mother as well.

And you also know that he will look upon you with more grace because you took the initiative to make sure that once was tainted was now not tainted …

See this is what Our Mother does for us when we pray to her for intercession and ask her to help us, she takes our prayers and she hands them to her sone but by the time he gets them they have been removed of all of tainted effects that we gave them to her? Why does she do this? Because she loves her Son and because we too are her children and she loves us. She desires that there be no boundaries between us and her Son and the Mediation that he does on our behalf …

I hope that I have helped
 
MysticRose said:
**Our Salvation **does rest on the acceptance of and belief in Our Mother as is taught by the One Holy Apostolic Church and in all of Her teachings, Traditions, Doctrines, and Dogmas on the Blessed Mother.

Pax Christi
Debi

You know, maybe we just have different meanings for the word “devotion” and that’s where our differences lay (which is what I hope because I’m certain you can’t possibly mean no Catholic without a devotion [my definition] to Mary is not getting into heaven]). If devotion to you means wearing something, pledging something, consecrating something, praying something every single day at the expense of taking those moments to be with Christ, if that’s what your definition is, than no, I beg to differ–even with your slew of quotes above…however, devotion under my definition, as stated over and over above and PM’d, well then yes, I’d agree.

So what exactly is your definition of “devotion”?

Penitent
 
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