Marian Dogmas and the Bible

[PatienceAndLove]

1. She is proclaimed to be the mother of God.

Jesus is the second person of the trinity, therefore Jesus is God. Hence, Mary is the mother of God

1. She is claimed to be conceived without original sin.

Would God really have chosen to be born by a woman touched by original sin?

1. She is claimed to be assumed into Heaven body and soul.

Her tomb would probably be a pilmagrage site, if it existed. No tomb.

1. She is proclaimed queen of Heaven.

As a daughter of the House of David, Mary has claim to the David throne. Her son is of the line of David. He is also the Creator of the Universe, the second of the Trinity, and is God. Following the David model of rule- since polygamy and harems were the norm, the mother of the king was crowned King. Thus, since Jesus had no wife, and since he is the Lord of Lords, it would only make sense that Mary would be his Queen.

1. She is claimed to be mediatrix of all graces. This means that as Christ dispenses saving grace to mankind, Mary along with Jesus will have the final say as to who receives it.

A power she recives through her Son, not on her own.

1. Mary is proclaimed to be co-redemptrix of the universe.

A belief that is not dogma or Tradition, and is, therefore, no binding to Catholics and is not held as part of the deposit of faith.

It surely looks to me that you are elevating her to Godhood.

It sure looks to me like you have not done an indepth study of the Catholic beliefs regarding Mary, and that you are relying on second hand information that you have gleaned from other sources that have also not done their homework.
Tertiary sources are not recognized as valid, find some primary ones.

 

[BanksOfTheTiber]

Originally Posted by BrewMax
6. Mary is proclaimed to be co-redemptrix of the universe.

A belief that is not dogma or Tradition, and is, therefore, no binding to Catholics and is not held as part of the deposit of faith.

*Pope John Paul II on Mary as Advocate, Mediatrix, Co-redemptrix

Pope John Paul II himself believes that the Virgin Mary is Advocate, Mediatrix, and Coredemptrix.

He said in a General Audience (L’Osservatore Romano, N. 41, Weekly Edition 11) “Mary exercises her role as `ADVOCATE’ by co-operating both with the Spirit the Paraclete and with the One who interceded on the Cross for his persecutors (cf. Lk 23:24) whom John calls our Advocate with the Father (1 Jn 2:1).”

In his encyclical Mother of the Redeemer, he wrote, “Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself `in the middle,’ that is to say she acts as a MEDIATRIX not as an outsider, but in her position as mother.”

The Pope said in a General Audience, “We recall that Mary’s mediation is essentially defined by her divine motherhood. Recognition of her role as MEDIATRIX is moreover implicit in the expression `Our Mother’” (L’Osservatore Romano, N. 41, Weekly Edition 11).

In Guayaquil, Ecuador (Jan. 31, 1985) the Holy Father said, “As she was in a special way close to the cross of her Son, she also had to have a privileged experience of his Resurrection. **In fact, Mary’s role as COREDEMPTRIX **did not cease with the glorification of her Son.”

The Holy Father greeted the sick in his General Audience of September 8, 1982. He said, “Mary, though conceived and born without the taint of sin, participated in a marvelous way in the suffering of her divine Son, in order to be COREDEMPTRIX of humanity.” (Insegnamenti di Giovanni Paolo II, I, V/3 [1982] 404 )

He said in 1985, “May, Mary our Protectress, the COREDEMPTRIX, to whom we offer our prayer with great outpouring, make our desire generously correspond to the desire of the Redeemer.” (Inseg VIII/1 (1985) L’Osservatore Romano 880:12)." *

So Pope John Paul II (whom I respect, greatly) says this, and it’s not Tradition nor Dogma … so where does this leave us?

 

[PatienceAndLove]

So Pope John Paul II (whom I respect, greatly) says this, and it’s not Tradition nor Dogma … so where does this leave us?

Other than JP2 saying this, I am not aware of any official statement from the Vatican regarding Mary as Co-Redemptrix.

 

[BrewMax]

Jesus is the second person of the trinity, therefore Jesus is God. Hence, Mary is the mother of God

Would God really have chosen to be born by a woman touched by original sin?

Her tomb would probably be a pilmagrage site, if it existed. No tomb.

As a daughter of the House of David, Mary has claim to the David throne. Her son is of the line of David. He is also the Creator of the Universe, the second of the Trinity, and is God. Following the David model of rule- since polygamy and harems were the norm, the mother of the king was crowned King. Thus, since Jesus had no wife, and since he is the Lord of Lords, it would only make sense that Mary would be his Queen.

A power she recives through her Son, not on her own.

A belief that is not dogma or Tradition, and is, therefore, no binding to Catholics and is not held as part of the deposit of faith.

It sure looks to me like you have not done an indepth study of the Catholic beliefs regarding Mary, and that you are relying on second hand information that you have gleaned from other sources that have also not done their homework.
Tertiary sources are not recognized as valid, find some primary ones.

The truth here is that Mary is looked at as being parallel with Christ in the Catholic church. It has been proven but still you try and create your own truths by doing Scriptural trapeze acts which do not exist and do not point to truth. Jesus said I am the way, not Mary and not anyone else. You have no support from Scripture for where you elevate Mary but yet you still do it.

"Enraptured by the spledor of your Heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxiety of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O immaculate mother of Jesus and our mother, Mary. God crowned you Queen of the Universe. O crystal fountain of faith bathe our minds with eternal truths.O fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin. Oh well beloved of God hear the ardent cries which rise from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted nd the oppressed. Comfort the poor and the humble. Quench hatred. Sweeten harshness. In your name resounding harmoniously in Heaven may they recognize that they are all brothers And finally, happy with you we may repeat before YOUR throne that hymn that is sung today around YOUR altars. You are all beautiful O Mary, you are the glory; you are the joy; you are the honor of our people. Pope Pius XII****

As I said, the Catholic church has paralleled Mary with Christ.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

In your name resounding harmoniously in Heaven may they recognize that they are all brothers And finally, happy with you we may repeat before YOUR throne that hymn that is sung today around YOUR altars. You are all beautiful O Mary, you are the glory; you are the joy; you are the honor of our people. Pope Pius XII****

As I said, the Catholic church has paralleled Mary with Christ.

She was chosen among as women to bare God. How could we not find glory, joy and honor within her? God could have very well have just created a body, but He did not. He chose to be born, as we all are. God treuly became one of us. How can there not be glory, joy and honor that God humbled himself to be born? If that, we gorify, find joy in, and honor Mary because she was chosen among everyone for the honor of bearing the Creator of the Universe.
What we have for her is intense love, respect and honor.
Altars to her are merely reminders of the greatness God bestowed on one person, to remind us to model ourselves after her, and to remember that her Son is the King of King, Lord of Lords, etc and that He humbled Himself to be one of us to take on our sins in His Death and Resurrection.

 

[Chronister4673]

In his encyclical Mother of the Redeemer, he wrote, “Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself `in the middle,’ that is to say she acts as a MEDIATRIX not as an outsider, but in her position as mother.”

In the Old Testament, the mother of the King is the Queen. Read about Bathsheba and the differences in the way she’s treated with regards to David and Solomon. With David, she’s treated as just another wife (1 Kings 1:15, she bows low and is a supplicant before David’s throne). When she goes to Solomon with a petition, she’s brought a throne and told that whatever she desires will be granted (1 Kings 2:19).

This is the manner of Mary’s title of Mediatrix. She delivers our petitions to her son as Bathsheba delivered the man’s request to Solomon. Mary mediates and advocates for us with Christ. This is all VERY Biblical. I hope this helps with your understanding.

 

[BanksOfTheTiber]

She was chosen among as women to bare God.

And God, in his omniscience, knew from the eternity past, that Mary would accept his offer. To suggest otherwise, is folly.

How could we not find glory, joy and honor within her? God could have very well have just created a body, but He did not. He chose to be born, as we all are.

We can, and do. Even the most staunch Protestant sees how Mary was a willing servant of God Almighty, and says to themselves, “would that our wills be so in tune with the will of God!”

God treuly became one of us. How can there not be glory, joy and honor that God humbled himself to be born?

That was the will of Almighty God from the beginning. His plan was perfect. Knowing that Mary would ascend to his wishes isn’t an attribute of Mary, bur rather, an attribute of God.

If that, we gorify, find joy in, and honor Mary because she was chosen among everyone for the honor of bearing the Creator of the Universe.

God’s omnicience … not Mary’s merit. He chose who he knew would submit to His will.

What we have for her is intense love, respect and honor.
Altars to her are merely reminders of the greatness God

Christ called St. John, the “Apostle whom Jesus loved”. This is significant in that **no other **Apostle is mentioned in this way. Why no elevation of St. John ( the ONLY Apostle who didn’t suffer martydom)?

 

[De_Maria]

Are you saying that there are human beings who have never sinned?

That is what St. Paul said.

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[BanksOfTheTiber]

In the Old Testament, the mother of the King is the Queen. Read about Bathsheba and the differences in the way she’s treated with regards to David and Solomon. With David, she’s treated as just another wife (1 Kings 1:15, she bows low and is a supplicant before David’s throne). When she goes to Solomon with a petition, she’s brought a throne and told that whatever she desires will be granted (1 Kings 2:19).

This is the manner of Mary’s title of Mediatrix. She delivers our petitions to her son as Bathsheba delivered the man’s request to Solomon. Mary mediates and advocates for us with Christ. This is all VERY Biblical. I hope this helps with your understanding.

Thank you for recognizing a desire for understanding. I am not here to engage in fisticuffs. Only to exchange views and hopefully, learn and grow.

My question is: the mother of the king was queen in antiquity. This much is certainly true. But … does that * necessarily* apply to the Kingdom of God?

 

[De_Maria]

Not so. What Paul is saying that even though we were not there to sin as Adam did, we inherit the sin nature from him nonetheless.

Lets go over the verse:

Romans 5:14
** Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,**

*Death reigned from Adam to Moses. *

**even over them that had not ****sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression,
**
That does not say *even though we weren’t present. That means even though some didn’t sin like Adam. The similitude of Adams’ sin is disobedience.

• who is the figure of him that was to come.

And Adam is a figure of Jesus.

This idea of being “saved from sinning” has no basis in the scriptures.

It is precisely the basis of our faith. God gave Adam and Eve the state of Original Justice precisely to preserve them from sin. They rejected this gift by an exercise of their will producing the Original Sin. The New Adam and the New Eve, Jesus and Mary were also conceived in Original Justice and by an exercise of their will never sinned.

The issue is: did God do this and what is the evidence that He did. There is not one shred of evidence in the scriptures that He did this to Mary.

Yes there is. Read about the Kecharitomene. Hail full of grace. Mary was declared full of grace from her conception in this tense of the word:

phatmass.com/directory/index.php/cat/52

And Mary knows that these gifts were not of her own doing:

Luke 1
49For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

Except for the great things acknowledged by the Catholic Church, which great things do the Protestants acknowledge of her? You call her ordinary, do you not?

Even the catholic church at times believed she died. Death is the result of sin.

No, death is the punishment for the sin of the human race. In Catholic Theology, we believe in Imitatio Christi. The imitation of Christ. We suffer as He suffered and we unite our suffering with Him. Even to the death. This is explained in Scripture:

2 Corinthians 1:5
For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

1 Peter 2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

How so? When Jesus came into the world He limited His divine attributes so that He could live among sinful men. That’s what Phil 2:5-8 is all about.

Are you saying that Jesus became sinful?

If God were “absolutely transcendant” how was it possible for Him to take on human flesh and live among men?

If God were not absolutely transcendent, how was it possible for Him to take on human flesh and continue to sustain the Universe? A transcendent God which is defined as one who is above and beyond the universe is an Islamic idea. Our God is He in whom we live, and move and are. We, our bodies, are temples of God the Holy Spirit. He is throughout His Creation. He is the greater than the greatest and smaller than the smallest. God is beyond our imagination to comprehend. Therefore, Our God is transcendent because He is in the universe but so powerful that He is not affected by it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[BrewMax]

She was chosen among as women to bare God. How could we not find glory, joy and honor within her? God could have very well have just created a body, but He did not. He chose to be born, as we all are. God treuly became one of us. How can there not be glory, joy and honor that God humbled himself to be born? If that, we gorify, find joy in, and honor Mary because she was chosen among everyone for the honor of bearing the Creator of the Universe.
What we have for her is intense love, respect and honor.
Altars to her are merely reminders of the greatness God bestowed on one person, to remind us to model ourselves after her, and to remember that her Son is the King of King, Lord of Lords, etc and that He humbled Himself to be one of us to take on our sins in His Death and Resurrection.

This is much more than deep honor and respect.

 

[Jordan_Francis]

Catholics do not elevate Mary to the level of Christ. I think many forget here that we are talking about a popular devotion. If Mary were elevated to the same place as Christ then why is she barely mentioned, if at all, in the ordinary Mass? Why is the entire Liturgical life of the Church offered as a single prayer to God the Father through the life of Christ her Savior? Why do Catholics genuflect at the altar of Christ, recieve His Body and Blood, and participate weekly, if not more, in the holiest and highest Christian prayer to the Holy Trinity; The Holy Mass.

You will not find anything, even in most Protestant churches, as highly Christ-centric as the Catholic Mass; the lifeblood of the Church.

Originally Posted by justasking4
Are you saying that there are human beings who have never sinned?

“There was once a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job. That man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil” (Job 1)

The word blameless occurs several times throughout the Old Testament, I think we have to consider what it means.

If we apply the strict literalism to Romans chapter 3, ignore that it is generalized statement about the human condition, and declare that it is impossible that God could save any person from sinning the verses regarding the Old Testament heroes who are “blameless” becomes problematic.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Catholics do not elevate Mary to the level of Christ. I think many forget here that we are talking about a popular devotion. If Mary were elevated to the same place as Christ then why is she barely mentioned, if at all, in the ordinary Mass? Why is the entire Liturgical life of the Church offered as a single prayer to God the Father through the life of Christ her Savior? Why do Catholics genuflect at the altar of Christ, recieve His Body and Blood, and participate weekly, if not more, in the holiest and highest Christian prayer to the Holy Trinity; The Holy Mass.

You will not find anything, even in most Protestant churches, as highly Christ-centric as the Catholic Mass; the lifeblood of the Church.

Nail, meet hammer. The mass is extremely Christ centered.

If we apply the strict literalism to Romans chapter 3, ignore that it is generalized statement about the human condition, and declare that it is impossible that God could save any person from sinning the verses regarding the Old Testament heroes who are “blameless” becomes problematic.

Or we could use a James White interpretation of the word “all” in the verse “all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God” with 'all" referring not to all people individually but to all kinds of people, ie Jews and Gentiles, meaning both Jews and Gentiles are under sin.

Given the context of Romans, written to a church of Jewish and Gentile Christians, in order to bring unity, I would say that is an plausible interpretation.

 

[Chronister4673]

My question is: the mother of the king was queen in antiquity. This much is certainly true. But … does that * necessarily* apply to the Kingdom of God?

I believe so. God gives us what we’re ready for. The Old Testament, through and through, is a pre-figuring of the New Testament. Noah and the Great Flood is a pre-figuring of Baptism. One could argue that the burning bush is a pre-figuring of the coming of the fire of the Holy Spirit. The parallels are there, to be seen. God made a covenant with Israel. Then God made a covenant with all of humanity through Christ. St. Paul (I misremember where and cannot look it up at this moment) said that before we were ready for bread, we had to live on milk. That’s what this is about. Humanity wasn’t able to understand the enormity of the whole of God. So he made us ready by thousands of years of interacting with us.

Now, as to how this has to deal with Mary… The angels, before man was ever created were presented with what God was going to do. God was going to become a human through the birth of a Child to a Virgin. We read that some of the angels couldn’t accept that God, their Master, would stoop so low as to become a human being (Revelations and other sources, again can’t quote exact verses just now). So there was a war waged in Heaven between those who would accept Divine Will and those who wouldn’t. Those who wouldn’t became demons through their own willful disobedience. God Himself elevated Mary. Why? She served him perfectly. She becomes the model for us in learning to serve Christ. She served him perfectly as a child, caring for him and loving him as a mother. She followed him in his ministry. She served others out of love for him. Every step in her life points back to her Child. She’s not a goddess, but the Mother of God. We respect Mary because Christ respected her. Christ made her perfect through His sacrifice. “It is not you who have chosen Me, but I who have chosen you.”

Mary worked with the Grace He provided her. She had free will. She chose to follow God. “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy word.” On her own she was nothing. With Him, she’s the Queen of Heaven and Earth through His Kingship.

Christ is our Brother. That makes her my Mother and my Queen. God himself crowned her (see Revelations), so I think that there is a place for it in the Kingdom of God.

I hope and pray in love that you can see the truth of things yourself. Others on here have already suggested reading Scott Hahn’s book on Mary. I would also like to suggest that you read it. It will carefully explain things that I am clumsy about explaining. What you decide after researching is up to you.

In Christ’s Love,
Staci

 

[johnnydigit]

Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant is definitely not said explicitly anywhere in the Bible, but i would like to see any Protestant deny this is true, considering the following undeniable evidence,

Ark of the (new) Covenant
The Old Testament Ark of the Covenant was a true icon of the sacred. Because it contained the presence of God symbolized by three types of the coming Messiah-the manna, the ten commandments, and Aarons rod-it had to be pure and untouched by sinful man (see 2 Sam. 6:1-9 and Ex.25:10ff; Num.4:15).
In the New Testament, the new Ark is not an inanimate object, but a person: the Blessed Mother. How much more pure would the new Ark be when we consider the old Ark was a mere “shadow” in relation to it (see Heb.10:1)? This image of Mary as the Ark of the Covenant is an indicator that Mary would fittingly be free from all contagion of sin to be a worthy vessel to bear God in her womb. And most importantly, just as the Old Covenant Ark was pristine from the moment it was constructed with explicit divine instruction in Exodus 25, so would Mary be pure from the moment of her conception. God, in a sense, prepared His own dwelling place in both the Old and New Testaments.

1. The Ark of the Covenant contained three “types” of Jesus inside:manna, Aaron’s rod, and the ten commandments. In Hebrew, commandment (dabar) can be translated “word”. Compare: Mary carried the fulfillment of all these types in her body. Jesus is the “true [manna] from heaven” (John 6:32), the true “high Priest” (Heb.3:1), and “the word made flesh” (John 1:14).
2. The glory cloud (Hebrew Anan) was representative of the Holy Spirit, and it “overshadowed” the Ark when Moses consecrated it in Ex. 40:32-33. The Greek word for “overshadow” found in the Septuagint is a form of episkiaseri. Compare: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God”. Luke 1:35). The Greek word for overshadow is episkiaseri.
3. David “leapt and danced” before the Ark when it was being carried into Jerusalem in procession in 2 Sam. 6:14-16. Compare: As soon as Elizabeth heard the sound of Mary’s salutation, John the Baptist “leaped for joy” in her womb (cf. Luke 1:41-44).
4. After a manifistation of the power of God working through the Ark, David exclaims,“How can the Ark of the Lord come unto me?” Compare: After the revelation to Elizabeth about the true calling of Mary, who was carring God in her womb, Elizabeth exclaims" Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)
5. The Ark of the Lord “remained in the house of Obededom…three months” in Sam. 6:11. Compare: “Mary remained with [Elizabeth] for about three months” (Luke 1:56)

This is part of an article by Tim Staples. I could not find a thread to link to and wish all could read the whole article-there is much more.

i think this typology is so profoundly clear and undeniable, that if a Protestant were to first recognize this, the rest will become clear as they begin to see all the pieces of the puzzle fitting together.

another thing to think about regarding the Ark: they would carry the Ark around in battle to help them. enemies would tremble. Mary is also our help. did they worship the Ark as God? no. neither do we worship Mary as God.

it seems that Protestants, by their logic, would criticize the Israelites for worshiping the Ark as well, merely based on the observations of the Israelites’ actions and not by what is going on in the Israelites’ minds as they worship God while venerating the Ark.

if there exists any,** i would like to see any argument against Mary being the “New Ark of the Covenant” **as i haven’t been able to find any. i would honestly like to hear their view on it. thanks!

 

[justasking4]

Nail, meet hammer. The mass is extremely Christ centered.

Or we could use a James White interpretation of the word “all” in the verse “all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God” with 'all" referring not to all people individually but to all kinds of people, ie Jews and Gentiles, meaning both Jews and Gentiles are under sin.

Given the context of Romans, written to a church of Jewish and Gentile Christians, in order to bring unity, I would say that is an plausible interpretation.

I’m confused. Are you saying that not all men are sinners?

 

[justasking4]

PatienceAndLove;2785978]Jesus is the second person of the trinity, therefore Jesus is God. Hence, Mary is the mother of God

Would God really have chosen to be born by a woman touched by original sin?

Evidently since Mary was a sinner like all men.

Her tomb would probably be a pilmagrage site, if it existed. No tomb.

If you are going to use this as a reason she was assumed then we can say all kinds of people have been to since we don’t know what happened to their bodies.

As a daughter of the House of David, Mary has claim to the David throne. Her son is of the line of David. He is also the Creator of the Universe, the second of the Trinity, and is God. Following the David model of rule- since polygamy and harems were the norm, the mother of the king was crowned King. Thus, since Jesus had no wife, and since he is the Lord of Lords, it would only make sense that Mary would be his Queen.

Where do we see in the NT anyone who acknowledges her as a queen?

A power she recives through her Son, not on her own.

Again you speculate.

A belief that is not dogma or Tradition, and is, therefore, no binding to Catholics and is not held as part of the deposit of faith.

The question remains though: is it true what you claim about Mary and how do you know? This is the core of this issue.

It sure looks to me like you have not done an indepth study of the Catholic beliefs regarding Mary, and that you are relying on second hand information that you have gleaned from other sources that have also not done their homework.
Tertiary sources are not recognized as valid, find some primary ones.

Let me encourage you to look at the foundations of this doctrine and ask the same questions that i have raised here. I think you will be shocked at the basis for these beliefs.

 

[Jordan_Francis]

Really, I’m not sure. I do believe the Virging Mary is sinless, that is theologically sound.

What do we do of Job who was “blameless in the eyes of the Lord”

 

[justasking4]

That is what St. Paul said.

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Sincerely,

De Maria

So we agree all men are sinners then?

 

[justasking4]

Jordan Francis;2788465]Really, I’m not sure. I do believe the Virging Mary is sinless, that is theologically sound.

If it you believe its theologically sound then what do you do with Luke 1:47; Romans 3:9-10, and 5:12? All of these speak of the unversality of sin in all men.

What do we do of Job who was “blameless in the eyes of the Lord”

Being blameless doesn’t mean sinless for an entire life.