Marian Dogmas and the Bible

[Jordan_Francis]

Being blameless doesn’t mean sinless for an entire life.

What is your evidence of that? If Job could be blameless well into his adulthood, why not till death?

 

[justasking4]

What is your evidence of that? If Job could be blameless well into his adulthood, why not till death?

i did some research on this verse and what blameless means is that its not about being sinless but about a way of life that rejects wickedness and pursues a righteous life before God. Job in 42:6 acknowleges that he did sin.

 

[BrewMax]

Evidently since Mary was a sinner like all men.

If you are going to use this as a reason she was assumed then we can say all kinds of people have been to since we don’t know what happened to their bodies.

Where do we see in the NT anyone who acknowledges her as a queen?

Again you speculate.

The question remains though: is it true what you claim about Mary and how do you know? This is the core of this issue.

Let me encourage you to look at the foundations of this doctrine and ask the same questions that i have raised here. I think you will be shocked at the basis for these beliefs.

You raise some very interesting questions and points. I am very curious to see what some of these Catholics would say to these beliefs and doctrines when they really do see the origin of them.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Evidently since Mary was a sinner like all men.

As your beliefs see it. I, however, understand that she was not and take it on faith.

If you are going to use this as a reason she was assumed then we can say all kinds of people have been to since we don’t know what happened to their bodies.

Additionally- there is already precedent for God assuming people into heaven (Elijah and Elisha). Would it not make sense, then, that the Mother of His own Son, the Ark of the New Covenant, be given the privilege of such an Assumption

Where do we see in the NT anyone who acknowledges her as a queen?

Revelation 12: 1-5
1And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. 3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.

And, again, we call upon the Davidic model, since all person involved in this conversation are descendants from the house of David.

Again you speculate.

I will leave that argument for someone more qualified

The question remains though: is it true what you claim about Mary and how do you know? This is the core of this issue.

I know because the Church is the culmination of Apostolic teaching and tradition. We hold to the traditions handed down to us, that the Protest-ant reformers said “meh” to. You rely on the heresy of Sola Scriptura, which actually violates the Holy Scripture you hold so near and dear.

THAT is actually what this whole thread is about. The Protest-ant inability to acknowledge the existence of Holy Apostolic Tradition.

1 Cor 11:2
Now, I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold to the traditions , just as I have delivered them to you.

2 Thess 2: 12-16
12 But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth: 13 Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 14 **Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. **15 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace, 16 Exhort your hearts, and confirm you in every good work and word.

2 Thess 3:6-10
6 And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us. 7 For yourselves know how you ought to imitate us: for we were not disorderly among you; 8 Neither did we eat any man’s bread for nothing, but in labour and in toil we worked night and day, lest we should be chargeable to any of you. 9 Not as if we had not power: but that we might give ourselves a pattern unto you, to imitate us. 10 For also when we were with you, this we declared to you: that, if any man will not work, neither let him eat.

Let me encourage you to look at the foundations of this doctrine and ask the same questions that i have raised here. I think you will be shocked at the basis for these beliefs.

Oh, I have. I study my faith in depth. However, I have no desire to debate my faith with someone who uses canned arguments.

 

[Mannyfit75]

As your beliefs see it. I, however, understand that she was not and take it on faith.

Additionally- there is already precedent for God assuming people into heaven (Elijah and Elisha). Would it not make sense, then, that the Mother of His own Son, the Ark of the New Covenant, be given the privilege of such an Assumption

Revelation 12: 1-5
1And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth, and was in pain to be delivered. 3 And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads, and ten horns: and on his head seven diadems: 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered; that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod: and her son was taken up to God, and to his throne.

And, again, we call upon the Davidic model, since all person involved in this conversation are descendants from the house of David.

I will leave that argument for someone more qualified

I know because the Church is the culmination of Apostolic teaching and tradition. We hold to the traditions handed down to us, that the Protest-ant reformers said “meh” to. You rely on the heresy of Sola Scriptura, which actually violates the Holy Scripture you hold so near and dear.

THAT is actually what this whole thread is about. The Protest-ant inability to acknowledge the existence of Holy Apostolic Tradition.

1 Cor 11:2
Now, I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold to the traditions , just as I have delivered them to you.

2 Thess 2: 12-16
12 But we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved of God, for that God hath chosen you firstfruits unto salvation, in sanctification of the spirit, and faith of the truth: 13 Whereunto also he hath called you by our gospel, unto the purchasing of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 14 **Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. **15 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace, 16 Exhort your hearts, and confirm you in every good work and word.

2 Thess 3:6-10
6 And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us. 7 For yourselves know how you ought to imitate us: for we were not disorderly among you; 8 Neither did we eat any man’s bread for nothing, but in labour and in toil we worked night and day, lest we should be chargeable to any of you. 9 Not as if we had not power: but that we might give ourselves a pattern unto you, to imitate us. 10 For also when we were with you, this we declared to you: that, if any man will not work, neither let him eat.

Oh, I have. I study my faith in depth. However, I have no desire to debate my faith with someone who uses canned arguments.

Excellent presentation

 

[DixiesFinest]

This is a falsehood. Many Traditions you are speaking of are not only not parallel with Scripture, but they contradict it.

Well then by all means brew, tell us. Open my eyes and tell me what I have never heard before. Please show me where a few years of careful study, research, and prayer have failed me.

 

[guanophore]

OK; but in this thread we are talking about Sola Scriptura; and it would be interesting to see how many catholics can answer my question about why the Bible does not contain all there is needed for salvation? You keep saying that the Bible is not the only source of inspiration; we keep agreeing. Yet in the same breath you keep saying that the Bible does not contain all there is to know for our salvation. Can you name anything specific that is not in the Bible; but that is necessary for our salvation?

One of the difficulties of this question is the common difference of understanding between Protestant and Catholic understandings of “salvation”. Evangelicals tend to consider salvation as an event that happens at a certain point in time and is complete for all time. This is a Reformed viewpoint that is not Apostolic in origin. The Apostolic perspective is that salvation is a process that is not completed until we are glorified in heaven.

To take this back to the question, the Bible is sufficient to lead one to the basic truths required to enter salvation. Once one has entered, however, there are many complex matters. For these, an inspired Authority is needed. Jesus appointed apostles and commissioned them with His Authority. Why did He do this if he knew that there would be aNT, and did not think it was necessary?

 

[YADA]

Genesis 5:24 states

Then Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him.

This deviates from the formulaic “then he died…” clearly implying Enoch was different and it also calls to mind Elijah’s being taken into heaven. The implication is that Enoch did not sie but was taken directly into heaven. For the passage about see 2 Kings 2:11-12 who also was taken to alive to the abode of God.

Mary’s assumption would not be unique and Mary had favor with God.

I honor Mary in obediencce to scripture [from Luke Chapter 1]

During those days Mary set out and traveled to the hill country in haste to a town of Judah, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, **“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. **And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.” And Mary said: "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name. His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him. He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart. He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly. The hungry he has filled with good things; the rich he has sent away empty. He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy,
according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever." Mary remained with her about three months and then returned to her home.

I am a member of the “ages” who call Mary Blessed…

Please notice that Mary has declared that has a ***Savior - ***This corresponds with the teaching of the immaculate conception, that Jesus acted at the conception of Mary - redeeming her from original sin - Mary is redeemed just as we all are…and the greeting of Gabriel “Hail - Full of Grace” or “Hail - Highly favored One” depending upon your translation shows that Mary remained [walked with] God…

I also bolded those passages that mirror the journey of the Ark of the Covenant - “Hill country of Judea”, David, “leaping for joy” at the Arks approach and a time frame of “3 months”

 

[Jordan_Francis]

Personally, I do not know if there is any other person who we can say to have not sinned. Enoch, because of his rapture, seems to be a possible candidate.

JUSTASKING4

If it you believe its theologically sound then what do you do with Luke 1:47; Romans 3:9-10, and 5:12? All of these speak of the unversality of sin in all men.

Regardless, the sinlessness of Mary does not contradict scripture which is making clear the innate sinful nature of mankind. There is no need to think this statement has to be literally applied to every single human being with no possibility of exception. The doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness is a perfect example of a logical exception that does not contradict the essence of what is being said. She is saved from the sinful nature by Christ, not her own ability or merits.

We have to remember that scripture is a dialogue between peoples and contexts. Doctrine has to be extracted from it, it is not self evident. This is why interpreting scripture is a cautious and certainly not always a self evident process.

Look to the **Letter of Titus **where it is written:

Even one of their own prophets has said, “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true.

Titus 1:12

Now in the context of what is being written here this statement is perfectly true. Titus, in his mission to Crete, experienced an unruly, deceitful and rebelious population.

But when considering every person living in Crete, is it not logical to think that there were notable exceptions? *Is Paul making a statement about every single person in Crete *or is he making a statement perhaps about Cretan culture and society in which a deceitful and rebelious attitude is being bred? Do Cretans always lie?
When considering the sinlessness of Mary we have to ask ourselves, does this doctrine constitute a contradiction in terms of what St. Paul is saying about the human condition? Is scripture always infallible in its superflourous details such as “Cretans are always liars”. Or is the inspiration of scripture found in its statements about humanity in relation to God, the world and one another. (A good example is the Resurrection of Christ. The gospels do not always agree the order in which Christ appeared to his Apostles. Yet they agree and are infallible on their essential point of Christ’s Resurrection and appearance to his community)

 

[YADA]

*Is Paul making a statement about every single person in Crete *or is he making a statement perhaps about Cretan culture and society in which a deceitful and rebelious attitude is being bred? Do Cretans always lie?

Actually, St. Paul is quoting Epimenides. Epimenides was a philosopher and religious prophet. The quote is known as the Epimenides paradox. St Paul quotes Epimenides and/or alludes to] him a couple of times.

I offer this just to keep the context and discusion accurate…

I do agree with your statement

that scripture is a dialogue between peoples and contexts. Doctrine has to be extracted from it, it is not self evident. This is why interpreting scripture is a cautious and certainly not always a self evident process.

 

[YADA]

What about the scriptures telling us that every generation will call Mary “Blessed”?

How do our seperated brethren in oppsition to the historical understanding justify the denigration of Mary and the arguments around her good name with this scripture passage?

I have heard some protestants say they cannot see that mary’s sinlessness matters and then argue that she is a sinner ‘exactly’ as all mankind…if it does not matter why the maligning of character?

How do non-catholics call Mary “Blessed” throughout the ages?

 

[BrewMax]

What about the scriptures telling us that every generation will call Mary “Blessed”?

How do our seperated brethren in oppsition to the historical understanding justify the denigration of Mary and the arguments around her good name with this scripture passage?

I have heard some protestants say they cannot see that mary’s sinlessness matters and then argue that she is a sinner ‘exactly’ as all mankind…if it does not matter why the maligning of character?

How do non-catholics call Mary “Blessed” throughout the ages?

Didn’t Jesus say that those who keep his Word are even more blessed?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Didn’t Jesus say that those who keep his Word are even more blessed?

Mary keep her word to God and she is indeed blessed. Mary in the beginning of Luke’s Gospel said. " …Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word." (Luke 1:38).

In her prayer she also said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. (Luke 46:48)

Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit called Mary. "…Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. (Luke 1:42)

Mary in the miracle Cana told the servants at the wedding. “Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.” (John 2:5)

And Mary was there at the foot of the cross with Jesus while the other 10 Apostles fled. She was always faithful. She practiced what God has commanded her to do.

You won’t find any action in the Bible that show Mary to be disobedient to the Word of God. She is always the faithful handmaid of the Lord.

 

[Jordan_Francis]

Catholics do keep the words of Christ. We also know that, according to John 20, all of his actions and words are not recorded in scripture. For this reason we also rely on the Apostolic Traditions, which have been passed down to us.

 

[YADA]

Now where in the bible did Jesus say that those who keep his word are more blessed than Mary…

Mary is the epitome of what it means to ‘keep the word’ of God…

Mary believed the message of the angel…"“Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.”

Elizabeth confirmed her living the word: “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”

You pick and choose - then add in a context that is not in the scriptures - a straw man…

And I say again…Mary was redeemed by Jesus at the moment of her conception…scritpure attests to this in the greeting of the angel, the testimony of Elizabeth and of Mary in Luke…and scripture is scripture…it is the inspired word of God, not just parts of it in isolation…

Mary remained in a state of grace with God, again the Gospel of Luke attests to this…in addition, the Gospel of John gives testimony to Mary’s faithfulness in the journey of Jesus from his first public miracle to the corss and to Pentacost…The Book of Revelation makes the connection to the Ark of the Covenant that is started in the Gospel of Luke…

Scripture gives testimony and instruction…

How do you follow this scriptural passage: “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.” ?

Mary proclaims God’s goodness, His holiness and His saving her in her daily life and in her soul! Mary is the example of Christian discipleship that we ar called to model…

Mary is blessed in every age…

 

[De_Maria]

So we agree all men are sinners then?

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

See messages #55 and 56 again. Scripture says that some had not sinned.

That is consistent with the fact that Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven. There is no evidence that St. John the Baptist ever sinned either. And of course, the Bible says that Mary is the Kecharitomene, she who has ever been full of Grace.

So, we, Catholics, agree with Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

Our focus should be upon Jesus Christ, not Mary. Mary can’t do anything for you that you cannot do for yourself. If you believe that she can then you are elevating her to a supernatural state which is Biblically wrong. Jesus is The Way, not Mary and not anyone else.

You are making a distinction where none exists. Relating with Mary does not take the “focus” off Christ. If anything, since she constantly points to Christ, it improves focus. That is like saying “I am not going to relate to my mother -in -law because it will take the focus off my wife.”

The fact is that Mary can do quite a few things that others are not able to do, because God has given her a share in His divine inheritance that those of us on earth have not yet achieved. Believers helping believers is not biblically wrong, and does not ascribe divinity to them. I will not say that they may not have a supernatural state, because God can do whatever he wants. When the three were in the furnace, and a fourth appeared “like the Son of Man”, those men were in a supernatural state, in my opinion. Jesus is the way, and Mary brought the Way into the world, followed the Way until her days on earth were completed, then He opened her Way into heaven.

So, Mary cannot do anything for anyone that they cannot do for themselves? Why ask anyone for help? It’s just “me and Jesus” right? Silly Jesus. What was He thinking, creating a “Body”, as if any of us needed each other!

"We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves; 2 let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to edify him.Rom 15:1-2

"Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. Gal 6:2

“In all things I have shown you that by so toiling one must help the weak” Acts 20:35

“that you may receive her in the Lord as befits the saints, and help her in whatever she may require from you, for she has been a helper of many and of myself as well” Rom 16:2

" You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us in answer to many prayers." 2 Cor 1:10-11

“And I ask you also, true yokefellow, help these women, for they have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers” Phil 4:3

…"for even in Thessaloni’ca you sent me help once and again.Phil 4:16

"And we exhort you, brethren, admonish the idlers, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all. 1 Thess 5:13-14

"So we ought to support such men, that we may be fellow workers in the truth. 3 John 8

It must not be “biblical” to ask for help from anyone, or accept help. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, right? Funny I couldn’t find that verse…

 

[guanophore]

Where do you get “This verse appears in a context to a community and is aimed at erasing pointless divions between people” in this chapter?

Paul is trying to demonstrate that the Jews are no better off than the Gentiles.

This would also apply to Mary. There is not one verse in the Scriptures that says Mary was not fallen or characterized by a fallen nature.

ja4, you are the one that is always wanting to know where the Church has infallibly interpreted a bible verse. Finally we tell you one, and you say “no, it doesn’t say that”.

The Scriptures most certainly do make claims about humanity without mentioning their individuality. Not only in Romans 3:9-10 but 5:10 and 18. This applies to all human beings ever born of a man and a woman.

Not so. You are misunderstanding the meaning. But, if you have an arguement about it, you will have to take it up with Jesus.

Matt 9:13
“For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

If “all” have sinned, who are the righteous to which the Lord refers?

Could it be the parents of John?

Luke 1:5-7
5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and both were advanced in years."

Or maybe He was talking about the saints?

Matt 27:52-53
52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many."

You see, ja4, there were righteous people, granted there were not many, but Jesus says he did not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Paul is talking about sinners in that verse, in the context of comparing Gentile sinners with Jewish sinners.

Are you saying that there are human beings who have never sinned?

The bible says this. What we are trying to show you is you are taking that verse out of it’s context, and it does not mean what you were taught it meant.

This idea of being “saved from sinning” has no basis in the scriptures.

How is it that you think that God cannot PREVENT people from sinning?! Do you think His arm is too short?

"Because he cleaves to me in love, I will deliver him;
I will protect him, because he knows my name. Ps 91:14

9 "He will guard the feet of his faithful ones;1 Sam 2:9

Do thou, O LORD, protect us,
guard us ever from this generation.
8 On every side the wicked prowl,
as vileness is exalted among the sons of men. Ps 12:7-8

20 Oh guard my life, and deliver me;
let me not be put to shame, for I take refuge in thee.
21 May integrity and uprightness preserve me,
for I wait for thee. Ps 25:20-21

11 For he will give his angels charge of you
to guard you in all your ways.
12 On their hands they will bear you up,
lest you dash your foot against a stone. Ps 91:11-12

3 Set a guard over my mouth, O LORD,
keep watch over the door of my lips!
4 Incline not my heart to any evil,
to busy myself with wicked deeds Ps 141:3-4

3 But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from evil.2 Thess 3:2-3

I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me. 2 Tim 1:12-13

 

[guanophore]

The truth here is that Mary is looked at as being parallel with Christ in the Catholic church.
As I said, the Catholic church has paralleled Mary with Christ.

I think you misunderstand what God wants for human kind.

Rom 8:31-33
32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not **also give us all things **with him?

1 Cor 3:21-22
For all things are yours…

Phil 4:12-13
13 I can do all things in him who strengthens me.

2 Peter 1:3-5

3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature."

Jesus wants us ALL parallel! Mary is just his choice to get there first.

 

[BrewMax]

Mary keep her word to God and she is indeed blessed. Mary in the beginning of Luke’s Gospel said. " …Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word." (Luke 1:38).

In her prayer she also said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. (Luke 46:48)

Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit called Mary. "…Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. (Luke 1:42)

Mary in the miracle Cana told the servants at the wedding. “Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.” (John 2:5)

And Mary was there at the foot of the cross with Jesus while the other 10 Apostles fled. She was always faithful. She practiced what God has commanded her to do.

You won’t find any action in the Bible that show Mary to be disobedient to the Word of God. She is always the faithful handmaid of the Lord.

You always seem to omit Luke 11:27-28. Jesus himself said blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.