Marian Dogmas and the Bible

[BrewMax]

I think you misunderstand what God wants for human kind.

Rom 8:31-33
32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not **also give us all things **with him?

1 Cor 3:21-22
For all things are yours…

Phil 4:12-13
13 I can do all things in him who strengthens me.

2 Peter 1:3-5

3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature."

Jesus wants us ALL parallel! Mary is just his choice to get there first.

It’s rather simple what Luke 11:27-28 says. It really speaks volumes given the fact that the extreme honoring of Mary is nowhere in Scripture.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

You always seem to omit Luke 11:27-28. Jesus himself said blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.

God told Mary, through Gabriel, that she was blessed. Thus, she, and we, hear the Word of God and obey it.

Additionally- using Luke 11:27-28: are we not obeying the Word of God by called Mary blessed?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Too many people misread Luke 11:27-28 due to poor translations of 28 and think that Jesus is saying, “INSTEAD OF praising my mother, you SHOULD RATHER be praising those who do the word of God” (which is a very shall we say ‘contemporary’ interpretation, like the ‘until’ flap).

What was actually said, according to Bible scholars, was Jesus using an expression, not of “Rather” but instead, “Yes, and EVEN MORE”. . .something which not only gives Mary the proper respect that a DUTIFUL SON would have given to her, with no snide misinterpretations of how ‘Christians’ (as if Mary herself was not a follower of her own Son) are the REAL ‘mother/brother’ and Mary was to be cast aside as worse than nothing, as even a millstone around Christ’s neck (which too many people, and I’m not just pointing the finger at my separated brethren here, do).

IOW, what Jesus says is acknowledging that Mary’s role as His Mother is indeed blessed, and ALSO THAT those who follow the word of God can be likewise blessed.

 

[BrewMax]

Too many people misread Luke 11:27-28 due to poor translations of 28 and think that Jesus is saying, “INSTEAD OF praising my mother, you SHOULD RATHER be praising those who do the word of God” (which is a very shall we say ‘contemporary’ interpretation, like the ‘until’ flap).

What was actually said, according to Bible scholars, was Jesus using an expression, not of “Rather” but instead, “Yes, and EVEN MORE”. . .something which not only gives Mary the proper respect that a DUTIFUL SON would have given to her, with no snide misinterpretations of how ‘Christians’ (as if Mary herself was not a follower of her own Son) are the REAL ‘mother/brother’ and Mary was to be cast aside as worse than nothing, as even a millstone around Christ’s neck (which too many people, and I’m not just pointing the finger at my separated brethren here, do).

IOW, what Jesus says is acknowledging that Mary’s role as His Mother is indeed blessed, and ALSO THAT those who follow the word of God can be likewise blessed.

You are incorrect. Jesus is plainly saying that those who keep God’s word are even more so blessed than Mary. Not that Mary isn’t blessed (the Scriptures plainly tell us that she is) but that those who keep God’s word are even more so. How could you refute that? Jesus said it.

 

[BrewMax]

God told Mary, through Gabriel, that she was blessed. Thus, she, and we, hear the Word of God and obey it.

Additionally- using Luke 11:27-28: are we not obeying the Word of God by called Mary blessed?

Then those who keep God’s word are even more blessed than Mary correct?

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Then those who keep God’s word are even more blessed than Mary correct?

Mary is Blessed among all women, and God blesses each person differently. In this case, however, Mary is more blessed than anyone else because she has the singular ability to call herself the Mother of God.

Luke 1:
42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

As we can see from the bolded text, Elizabeth declares Mary blessed among all women (past, present and future). It is because of this that we continue to call her blessed.

The italized text refers to a previous post regarding the modeling of ourselves after Mary. She says that because she has humbled herself before God, she has been blessed with the Son of God, and all generations shall call her blessed.

 

[justasking4]

Mary is Blessed among all women, and God blesses each person differently. In this case, however, Mary is more blessed than anyone else because she has the singular ability to call herself the Mother of God.

Luke 1:
42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

As we can see from the bolded text, Elizabeth declares Mary blessed among all women (past, present and future). It is because of this that we continue to call her blessed.

The italized text refers to a previous post regarding the modeling of ourselves after Mary. She says that because she has humbled herself before God, she has been blessed with the Son of God, and all generations shall call her blessed.

How does it follow that just because Mary was blessed to bring Christ into the world that we should pray to her?
Certainly the apostles knew she was blessed but we don’t see them at all exhorting or teaching that we should pray to her when she dies.

 

[justasking4]

Catholics do keep the words of Christ. We also know that, according to John 20, all of his actions and words are not recorded in scripture. For this reason we also rely on the Apostolic Traditions, which have been passed down to us.

The problem is that the only things we know what the apostles taught and did is found only in the scriptures. We know from these writings that they never taught any of these Marian dogmas. In fact you don’t see any thing about Mary’s assumption being mention until around the 4th century. That’s 400 years after Mary and the apostles lived.

 

[justasking4]

De Maria;2792691]Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

See messages #55 and 56 again. Scripture says that some had not sinned.

I went there and looked up those passages in context and none of them says that some had not sinned.

That is consistent with the fact that Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven. There is no evidence that St. John the Baptist ever sinned either. And of course, the Bible says that Mary is the Kecharitomene, she who has ever been full of Grace.

So, we, Catholics, agree with Scripture.

Have you looked at offical catholic teaching on this? If i’m not mistaken the catholic church does teach all men are sinners. The exception according to their theology is Mary who was somehow kept from sin. (No evidence for this claim though)

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

You always seem to omit Luke 11:27-28. Jesus himself said blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.

Jesus said “even more blessed” are those who hear and obey. He was not saying that His mother was not blessed by giving birth to Him, and the joy of being His mother. He is saying that, even greater than this joy is the blessing she has because she heard the Word, and obeyed.

Then those who keep God’s word are even more blessed than Mary correct?

I suppose it is possible. No one has yet lived, however, that kept His word as well as she, so we don’t know!

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;2792943]

Originally Posted by justasking4
The Scriptures most certainly do make claims about humanity without mentioning their individuality. Not only in Romans 3:9-10 but 5:10 and 18. This applies to all human beings ever born of a man and a woman.

guanophore
Not so. You are misunderstanding the meaning. But, if you have an arguement about it, you will have to take it up with Jesus.

Matt 9:13
“For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

If “all” have sinned, who are the righteous to which the Lord refers?

Could it be the parents of John?

Luke 1:5-7
5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 But they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and both were advanced in years."

Or maybe He was talking about the saints?

Matt 27:52-53
52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many."

You see, ja4, there were righteous people, granted there were not many, but Jesus says he did not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Paul is talking about sinners in that verse, in the context of comparing Gentile sinners with Jewish sinners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Are you saying that there are human beings who have never sinned?

The bible says this. What we are trying to show you is you are taking that verse out of it’s context, and it does not mean what you were taught it meant.

I must be misunderstanding you. If you are saying that there are some who have not sinned then you are not going by what your church teaches. This is what the catechism says about this issue:

The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity
402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290
403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”.291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

Do you agree with this?

 

[guanophore]

How does it follow that just because Mary was blessed to bring Christ into the world that we should pray to her?
Certainly the apostles knew she was blessed but we don’t see them at all exhorting or teaching that we should pray to her when she dies.

I think most of the Apostles had the sense that Jesus was coming back any day, and did not give much thought to any of them dying. However, since she was alive when they were, and they could ask her for prayers anytime, why would they give this a second thought? It was commonplace to ask those who have died to continue to pray for them, beginning with St. Stephen, one of the earliest martyrs.

The problem is that the only things we know what the apostles taught and did is found only in the scriptures.

This is only a problem for you, JA4, and others who have not followed the instructions in I Thes. 2:15. For those that have been obedient to this commandment, we know other things the apostles taught and did.

We know from these writings that they never taught any of these Marian dogmas. In fact you don’t see any thing about Mary’s assumption being mention until around the 4th century. That’s 400 years after Mary and the apostles lived.

Most of the NT was already written by the time Mary died. However, it does not matter, because any coctrine that emerged in the early centuries that was not consistent with the Apostolic TEachings was thoroughly refuted. The canon of the Bible was not formed until that time, either, but you seem to have no trouble accepting that! The same infallible source for both…

 

[PatienceAndLove]

How does it follow that just because Mary was blessed to bring Christ into the world that we should pray to her?
Certainly the apostles knew she was blessed but we don’t see them at all exhorting or teaching that we should pray to her when she dies.

The Catholic Church relies upon the deposit of faith and Apostolic Tradition, while Protest-ants use the heresy of Sola Scriptura. That is where the teaching comes from.

Additionally- I think your idea of what is going on is vastly different than what is. In your own words (no canned arguments), what are Catholics doing when we are “worshiping Mary” and “elevating her above Christ”?

EDIT: Anytime a prayer is done to Mary, we ask her to PRAY FOR US. We don’t ask her anything else other than her prayers.

EDIT #2: Read this article, and then we will talk
gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2007/08/coronation-of-queen-of-heaven.html

 

[guanophore]

I must be misunderstanding you. If you are saying that there are some who have not sinned then you are not going by what your church teaches. This is what the catechism says about this issue:

The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity
402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290
403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”.291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

Do you agree with this?

This is talking about original sin. When Jesus talks about the righteous, and other scriptures reference peopel who are saints, or righteous, or blameless, they are referring to personal sin. Apples and oranges.

 

[justasking4]

Jordan Francis;2789389]Personally, I do not know if there is any other person who we can say to have not sinned. Enoch, because of his rapture, seems to be a possible candidate.

JUSTASKING4

Regardless, the sinlessness of Mary does not contradict scripture which is making clear the innate sinful nature of mankind. There is no need to think this statement has to be literally applied to every single human being with no possibility of exception. The doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness is a perfect example of a logical exception that does not contradict the essence of what is being said.

Did Mary have normal human parents? Was she born of them? Of course. Since she was, she inherited Adam sin nature from them.

She is saved from the sinful nature by Christ, not her own ability or merits.

The problem with this statement is that there is absolutely no evidence for it. It is never mentioned in scripture which is all we know of her. Just because a claim is made doesn’t mean its true.

We have to remember that scripture is a dialogue between peoples and contexts. Doctrine has to be extracted from it, it is not self evident. This is why interpreting scripture is a cautious and certainly not always a self evident process.

Good point and its one that shows that the claim Mary was sinless or kept from sin has not possible grounding in Scripture.
There is no writer in Scripture that comes even close to saying she was sinless. Also there were church fathers who thought she had sinned.

Look to the **Letter of Titus **where it is written:

Titus 1:12

Now in the context of what is being written here this statement is perfectly true. Titus, in his mission to Crete, experienced an unruly, deceitful and rebelious population.

But when considering every person living in Crete, is it not logical to think that there were notable exceptions? *Is Paul making a statement about every single person in Crete *or is he making a statement perhaps about Cretan culture and society in which a deceitful and rebelious attitude is being bred? Do Cretans always lie?

If you read the verse you will find that Paul is quoting what one of their prophets said. He is not personally making the claim that all people living in Crete were liars. Rather he was saying that this was true of false teachers who always lie.

When considering the sinlessness of Mary we have to ask ourselves, does this doctrine constitute a contradiction in terms of what St. Paul is saying about the human condition? Is scripture always infallible in its superflourous details such as “Cretans are always liars”. Or is the inspiration of scripture found in its statements about humanity in relation to God, the world and one another. (A good example is the Resurrection of Christ. The gospels do not always agree the order in which Christ appeared to his Apostles. Yet they agree and are infallible on their essential point of Christ’s Resurrection and appearance to his community)

This is why context is so important. Making generalized statements can sound convincing until you examine the parts. So it is here. What you need to support the assertion that Mary was kept from sin by Christ is support from the scriptures and the scriptures never teach such a doctrine. Also, it is not support for someone to make assertions and to say that these assertions are true unless you have facts to support them with. Without this all you have are speculations and speculations are not proofs nor facts but opinions of men.

 

[justasking4]

PatienceAndLove;2796635]The Catholic Church relies upon the deposit of faith and Apostolic Tradition, while Protest-ants use the heresy of Sola Scriptura. That is where the teaching comes from.

Ok. I’m a heritical Sola Scripturalist. Now, please show me from the apostles themselves that they taught any of the Marian dogmas? Since the only teachings we have are from the written-inspired-inerrant scriptures, where do they teach in them: immaculately conceived?
prayed to?
Queen of the apostles and the church?
Assumed into heaven?

If what you say is true then we should see them there. Can you show me?

Additionally- I think your idea of what is going on is vastly different than what is. In your own words (no canned arguments), what are Catholics doing when we are “worshiping Mary” and “elevating her above Christ”?

Let me recommend a book for you if you haven’t read it. Its called the Glories of Mary by St Ligori. Compare with some of the psalms for example and you will see what i mean.

EDIT: Anytime a prayer is done to Mary, we ask her to PRAY FOR US. We don’t ask her anything else other than her prayers.

There are many problems with this. For one, those who have died in Christ are asleep. To be asleep means you are totally unaware of this world. This means prayers to her are not being heard since she and all the saints are asleep and unaware.

EDIT #2: Read this article, and then we will talk
gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2007/08/coronation-of-queen-of-heaven.html
i’ll check it out.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

.

To be asleep means you are totally unaware of this world. This means prayers to her are not being heard since she and all the saints are asleep and unaware.

No, it does not. As I said (on another thread) you are really not aware yourself, it appears, of how ‘aware’ those who sleep ARE of ‘the world’. You really should check out a sleep center.

People who are in various stages of sleep can HEAR, can FEEL, can SMELL a perfume, while the monitors show that they are ‘asleep’, while they ‘appear’ to be motionless and unaware. The old phrase “dead to the world” is turning out to have an interpretation that points far more to the Catholic perspective than you would have that. . . in that sleepers are far LESS ‘unaware’ in sleep OF that world.

 

[justasking4]

.

No, it does not. As I said (on another thread) you are really not aware yourself, it appears, of how ‘aware’ those who sleep ARE of ‘the world’. You really should check out a sleep center.

People who are in various stages of sleep can HEAR, can FEEL, can SMELL a perfume, while the monitors show that they are ‘asleep’, while they ‘appear’ to be motionless and unaware. The old phrase “dead to the world” is turning out to have an interpretation that points far more to the Catholic perspective than you would have that. . . in that sleepers are far LESS ‘unaware’ in sleep OF that world.

When you go to sleep tonight ask someone to start talking to you while you are in a deep sleep and then see if you remember anything they said to you. i don’t know about you but under such conditions i’m totally unaware of the outside world.

 

[De_Maria]

I went there and looked up those passages in context and none of them says that some had not sinned.

Break them down. Lets see your explanation.

Have you looked at offical catholic teaching on this

Yes.

If i’m not mistaken the catholic church does teach all men are sinners.

No, As far as I am aware, the Church does not teach that these necessarily sinned. Enoch, Elijah because they were assumed into heaven. St. John the Baptist because he jumped for joy when he felt the Holy Spirit in St. Elizabeth’s womb. St. Joseph the spouse of Mary and foster father of Jesus, because he must have been an extraoridnarily righteous man to have been selected to care for the Father’s household. St. John the Evangelist because he is the Beloved Disciple. And of course Jesus and Mary

In addition, the Catholic Church teaches that all men are conceived under Original Sin except Adam, Eve, Jesus, and Mary. St. John the Baptist is a special case. St. John the Baptist was conceived but not born under original sin:.

See this article in Catholic Culture:
*Ordinarily the Church observes the day of a saint’s death as his feast, because that day marks his entrance into heaven. To this rule there are two notable exceptions, the birthdays of Blessed Mary and of St. John the Baptist. All other persons were stained with original sin at birth, hence, were displeasing to God. But Mary, already in the first moment of her existence, was free from original sin (for which reason even her very conception is commemorated by a special feast), and John was cleansed of original sin in the womb of his mother.
catholicculture.org/liturgicalyear/calendar/day.cfm?date=2007-06-24
*

The exception according to their theology is Mary who was somehow kept from sin. (No evidence for this claim though)

You don’t understand Catholic Theology very well. And there is plenty of evidence, you just reject it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[justasking4]

De Maria;2796919]Break them down. Lets see your explanation

.

Lets take one. Luke 1:6
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
What does righteous mean in this verse? It means:In the NT those that are called righteous (díkaioi) are those who have conditioned their lives by the standard which is not theirs, but God’s (Rom. 2:13; 5:7; 2 Tim. 1:9). They are the people related to God and who, as a result of this relationship, walk with God
Zodhiates, S. The complete word study dictionary.
A person can be righteous but that does not mean he does not sin. Even in the catholic church’ saints may be said to be righteous but that does not mean they never sinned.

Yes.

No, As far as I am aware, the Church does not teach that these necessarily sinned. Enoch, Elijah because they were assumed into heaven. St. John the Baptist because he jumped for joy when he felt the Holy Spirit in St. Elizabeth’s womb. St. Joseph the spouse of Mary and foster father of Jesus, because he must have been an extraoridnarily righteous man to have been selected to care for the Father’s household. St. John the Evangelist because he is the Beloved Disciple. And of course Jesus and Mary

In addition, the Catholic Church teaches that all men are conceived under Original Sin except Adam, Eve, Jesus, and Mary. St. John the Baptist is a special case. St. John the Baptist was conceived but not born under original sin:.

See this article in Catholic Culture:
Ordinarily the Church observes the day of a saint’s death as his feast, because that day marks his entrance into heaven. To this rule there are two notable exceptions, the birthdays of Blessed Mary and of St. John the Baptist. All other persons were stained with original sin at birth, hence, were displeasing to God. But Mary, already in the first moment of her existence, was free from original sin (for which reason even her very conception is commemorated by a special feast), and John was cleansed of original sin in the womb of his mother.
catholicculture.org/liturgicalyear/calendar/day.cfm?date=2007-06-24

You don’t understand Catholic Theology very well. And there is plenty of evidence, you just reject it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Here is what your catechism teaches about this:

The consequences of Adam’s sin for humanity
402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290
403 Following St. Paul, the Church has always taught that the overwhelming misery which oppresses men and their inclination towards evil and death cannot be understood apart from their connection with Adam’s sin and the fact that he has transmitted to us a sin with which we are all born afflicted, a sin which is the “death of the soul”.291 Because of this certainty of faith, the Church baptizes for the remission of sins even tiny infants who have not committed personal sin.292

As you can see it does teach what i’m saying that no man is without sin. In case of Mary, all you have is an assertion since there is no evidence in scripture that she was kept from sin. Her acknowldegement of a Savior and her making a sin offering in Luke 2:21-24 all indicate she saw herself as a sinner.

I reject what the catholic church teaches about Mary not without reasons but with what the scriptures teach about her and all mankind. Only the scriptures are inspired-inerrant and not any church.