Marian dogmas: important and essential for our salvation?

[joe370]

gurneyhalleck

1;7055838]But ultimately is Mary the propotype or is Christ?

Jesus is our one and only creator and savior and our ONLY divine prototype. Mary the “blessed” mother of God is a mere creature like the rest of us, but if she, as one of God’s creatures, lived a sin free life through the merits of the blood of Christ as you readily admit, then she too is an immaculately created prototype - right? Our creator gave us an example of what His creation was suppose to be like at the very beginning, and what His creation, through the sacraments, will be, in the new heaven and the new earth. Our mother Mary is a figure, a reminder of what lies ahead for all of her children, which is: a new body and soul which we will have forever. What an awesome reminder God gave us…

She was born immaculate but Christ is also born without sin and He is our rubric for what a human should be like.

Very true, but so is Mary if in fact, like you said, she was born immaculate - right? As sinners, we all see her as the embodiment of what God initially planned for His creation, when He created mankind, and that has nothing to do with Jesus, who created His mother, and is our one and only Savior - right?

He is our mediator, according to Scripture, not a hint of Mary being so.

If Mary the mother of God, cannot prayerfully mediate, from heaven, then neither can anyone else here on earth, including the apostles, their successors, or any of the church leaders out there in the world, regardless of denomination. Mary’s soul from heaven magnifies God, according to sacred scripture and she accomplishes this task through intercessory prayer, if we should choose to ask her to pray for us, just as people here on earth, through intercessory prayer, if we should choose to ask him/her to pray for us mediate, prayerfully speaking. Jesus is our one mediator but that doesn’t stop all those Pastors, regardless of denomination, from mediating, be it through mediation by prayer or mediation by teaching. There is but one God, and one mediator between God and men, but there are many men on earth, still mediating on Jesus’ behalf, between Jesus and men, regardless of denomination.

The early church was right to credit her as Theotokos, mother of God, because she is. But the Council of Nicea wasn’t focused on Mary, it was focused on Christ. It wasn’t focused on her as a prototype, “be just like Mary” type of thrust, it was using Mary to show Christ’s God-Man status and that He was begotten, not made. That truth didn’t depend on an assumption for Mary or a perpetual virginity for Mary or an immaculate birth for Mary.

Very true, but I highly doubt that God would have become one with sinful flesh, due to His abhorrence of sin, ergo the necessity for Mary to be created immaculately. Mary does not defocus from our savior; she magnifies our savior, her Son. Regarding the apparitions of Mary, her focus is always on her Son, Jesus. She is still saying via apparitions, what she said 2000 years ago at the Cana wedding:

“Do whatever he tells you.”

It really wasn’t focused on her at all, but needed to reference her for the great role she played in showing the heretics that Arius was wrong in his idea that Christ was a created being. He wasn’t. Mary shows that. So the Marian prototype example isn’t something I necessarily buy.

If you feel that Mary, as God’s created prototype, due to her sinlessness, detracts attention away from her Son Jesus, instead of focusing attention on her Son, then I certainly see why you find her, as God’s created prototype, unnecessary, however I do not understand it. Different strokes for different folks I guess…

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

No argument here. Saying that Mary is the ultimate example of what a created being should be is fine by me. She is.

Jesus is our one and only creator and savior and our ONLY divine prototype. Mary the “blessed” mother of God is a mere creature like the rest of us, but if she, as one of God’s creatures, lived a sin free life through the merits of the blood of Christ as you readily admit, then she too is an immaculately created prototype - right? Our creator gave us an example of what His creation was suppose to be like at the very beginning, and what His creation, through the sacraments, will be, in the new heaven and the new earth. Our mother Mary is a figure, a reminder of what lies ahead for all of her children, which is: a new body and soul which we will have forever. What an awesome reminder God gave us…

Again, no argument with that.
Very true, but so is Mary if in fact, like you said, she was born immaculate - right? As sinners, we all see her as the embodiment of what God initially planned for His creation, when He created mankind, and that has nothing to do with Jesus, who created His mother, and is our one and only Savior - right?

**We are all intercessors for one another whether it’s a friend, mother, daughter, pastor, or saint. True. Ultimately it is Christ Jesus who is our Mediator with the Father. **
If Mary the mother of God, cannot prayerfully mediate, from heaven, then neither can anyone else here on earth, including the apostles, their successors, or any of the church leaders out there in the world, regardless of denomination. Mary’s soul from heaven magnifies God, according to sacred scripture and she accomplishes this task through intercessory prayer, if we should choose to ask her to pray for us, just as people here on earth, through intercessory prayer, if we should choose to ask him/her to pray for us mediate, prayerfully speaking. Jesus is our one mediator but that doesn’t stop all those Pastors, regardless of denomination, from mediating, be it through mediation by prayer or mediation by teaching. There is but one God, and one mediator between God and men, but there are many men on earth, still mediating on Jesus’ behalf, between Jesus and men, regardless of denomination.

I never said Mary was born of sinful flesh. I believe she is Immaculate. I don’t have a problem with that teaching. I’ve made that clear.

Very true, but I highly doubt that God would have become one with sinful flesh, due to His abhorrence of sin, ergo the necessity for Mary to be created immaculately. Mary does not defocus from our savior; she magnifies our savior, her Son. Regarding the apparitions of Mary, her focus is always on her Son, Jesus. She is still saying via apparitions, what she said 2000 years ago at the Cana wedding:

“Do whatever he tells you.”

Mary fulfilled a role, the Mother of God. She gave birth to the High Priest, the Lord of Lords, the Saviour of the World and our Mediator. Devotion and appreciation of Mary is fine, but not necessary IMO. Devotion, worship, and faith in Christ Jesus is. I choose to spend my time going straight to that Mediator without going through other channels at this point. As you said, different strokes. The NT, Paul, the epistles, and Gospels tell me Jesus is my Saviour and Mediator so I pray to Him. I’m a simpleton
If you feel that Mary, as God’s created prototype, due to her sinlessness, detracts attention away from her Son Jesus, instead of focusing attention on her Son, then I certainly see why you find her, as God’s created prototype, unnecessary, however I do not understand it. Different strokes for different folks I guess…

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

**Jesus doesn’t pray for us? Interesting. Luke 22:31-32
“Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail.”

or how about John 17:9
“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours and everything of mine is yours and everything of yours is mine, and I have been glorified in them…” and verse 20: “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in You…”

“Father forgive them, they know not what they do.” etc.
Jesus prays for us to the Father, intercedes, and mediates. He is the total package, the High Priest that offers Himself on the altar. It’s tempting to take away roles from him and delegate them to creatures but He is the total package. **

Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, but He doesn’t pray for us - Mary prays to Jesus for us. Jesus is the one being prayed to; not the one doing the praying.

**
**

Jesus is our Mediator, but Mary is our intercessor. Of course, like her, we should all be intercessors. She should not be unique in that regard. But she sets the example for us to imitate.

Jesus is our model. He tells us to be perfect as his Father is perfect. We can never be perfect but we strive. If Mary is indeed Immaculate, born free of Original Sin, she is no more a model either. She was MADE that way by God before she drew breath. We can no more copy that than we can copy Christ. She is not closer to us in the order of grace because she has no sin within her!? You’re attempting to portray her as a typical josephine. The Catholic Church has gone out of its way to point out that she’s NOT! And though we’d all do well to imitate her, we’d do even better to imitate the One she points to at Cana!
Jesus is the type of Adam, and the prototype of the Christian priesthood. We can’t be like Him, though, because He is divine. Mary is human, and imitated Him in every way that is possible for a human being, so it is she who is our model.

This is somewhat odd and distrurbing. I thought we were called, as Catholics, to offer up our pain, to embrace and not run from the Cross, to face suffering and see it as redemptive? Your analogy implies Mary’s way was “less painfulr” than Jesus’s. I wouldn’t say it was easy to live the life of a virgin, know your son will die someday brutally (“and a sword shall pierce your heart!”), watch him flogged and brutalized, whipped, spat upon, loathed, crucified, dead in a tomb. Not the easy way at all. And the early Church prized the gift of martyrdom and death or pain and suffering. The Catholic Church considers it redemptive and a thing to be faced with an open heart to this day. We don’t journey to God through Mary, we do it walking the path of Christ. There aren’t multiple hallways leading to God, just one–Christ Jesus. No easier option. One option—Jesus.
A friend of mine likes to say, There are two ways to become a Christian - either you can do it Jesus’ way, by means of being broken on the Cross, or you can do it Mary’s way, by being poured into a model of grace. Mary’s way is less painful, I think.

Right, and you can see then already how it is that the teachings about Mary show us Christ more clearly.

The other topics weren’t under discussion at that time, and even in modern Catechesis, they tend to be discussed in different lessons. It isn’t necessary to say everything about Mary all in one speech, or all in one Council.

True enough. Her relationship to her Son is unique, completely unique, unprecedented, unknowable, and powerful. Her virtuous, holy, devoted life to her Son is something we should imitate. She is a prototype in the regards to spell out here. I agree 100%.
Mary is a prototype of the Church in the Book of Revelation, chapter 12. She is a prototype of what our relationship with Christ should look like. Mary was immaculate; we, too, should be without sin. Mary was assumed into Heaven; so will we be. Her Assumption affirms the promise made to us - we can say “Yes, this will happen, because we know it has already happened, to Mary.” She is us.

 

[mardukm]

Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, but He doesn’t pray for us - Mary prays to Jesus for us. Jesus is the one being prayed to; not the one doing the praying.

Jesus is our Mediator, but Mary is our intercessor. Of course, like her, we should all be intercessors.

Oh my. That’s a bit of a theological blunder, sister. Brother Gurney gave some great examples for correction. I’d also like to point out that the words “Mediator” and “Intercessor” are same word in Greek.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[jmcrae]

Oh my. That’s a bit of a theological blunder, sister. Brother Gurney gave some great examples for correction. I’d also like to point out that the words “Mediator” and “Intercessor” are same word in Greek.

Blessings,
Marduk

I don’t think Jesus prays to Himself, now that He is in Heaven.

Naturally when He was on earth, He prayed to the Father, but He is in Heaven now, and reunited with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

I didn’t realize that “mediator” and “intercessor” were the same word in Greek. Even so, we know that Mary prays for us. To Jesus, her Son.

 

[mardukm]

Dear sister jmcrae,

I don’t think Jesus prays to Himself, now that He is in Heaven.

Not to Himself, but to the Father.

Naturally when He was on earth, He prayed to the Father, but He is in Heaven now, and reunited with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

I didn’t realize that “mediator” and “intercessor” were the same word in Greek. Even so, we know that Mary prays for us. To Jesus, her Son.

Romans 8:34 Who is to condemn us? Is it Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us?

And yes, Mary, among all creation from its beginning to its end, is our greatest intercessor.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[jmcrae]

And yes, Mary, among all creation from its beginning to its end, is our greatest intercessor.

That is the important thing.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This is flawed theology and analysis I think. It’s not about Jesus praying to Himself. He prays our needs, wants, and pleas to his Father, the other member of the Divine Trinity. He’s not schizophrenically talking to Himself, but His Father on our behalf.

Your logic here would also nullify the Catholic belief in the Real Presence, ironically, in that Jesus can’t offer Himself to Himself at the Last Supper, right? He’s holding His own Body and Blood offering it to Himself? Of course not. He’s offering it sacramentally to His Father, as He prays and intercedes for us in heaven. He is our intercessor and mediator, the same thing, as Mardukum pointed out.

And also, your point about Jesus praying for Himself is a non-sequitor in that Hebrews shows Christ as the ultimate High Priest who prays on our behalf to the Father, gives us the once-and-for-all sacrifice on the altar re-presented, and pleads for us all. It’s not reflexive, but to God.

And yes, Mary prays for us. But why not pray directly to Christ Jesus Himself who’s intercession is at the very right hand of the Father? That’s just my opinion and I think it makes sense. It’s like asking another teacher to tell the principal something for me here at school. Why don’t I just go to her office and ask her myself?

I don’t think Jesus prays to Himself, now that He is in Heaven.

Naturally when He was on earth, He prayed to the Father, but He is in Heaven now, and reunited with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

I didn’t realize that “mediator” and “intercessor” were the same word in Greek. Even so, we know that Mary prays for us. To Jesus, her Son.

 

[KathleenGee]

Guerny,

Then…let’s say a person says he loves the Lord with all his heart, soul and mind, with all his strength. The same person then says, I love the Lord so much I want to be in union with Him all the time, I want to live in His presence all the time…this is a great grace given to this person to have this desire.

Now if that person is to do it on his own…a lone ranger…he will get there…but it is a long, long road…some use the idea of a ladder.

But if that person were to invite Mary to come along, he/she would get there that much faster and closer, Mary the short ladder.

So do you want to do it in memory of Frank Sinatra’s song, "I Do it My Waayyyyy…’ for who knows how long in grace’s time, or…without all the ‘works’…and you know what i mean here…be with Mary and be with the Lord in much less time – God’s time to be clear here than on that long, lonely road???

God gave man Woman so he would not be alone.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

A nice way of putting it actually, Kathleen.
Asking Mary to be a part of the equation is fine with me. Like I said, the Marian dogmas are ok with me. But the idea that Jesus isn’t our intercessor and He’s too distant and unapproachable, can’t pray for us so we ask Mary to do what He can’t? That scares the crud out of me! And I’ve heard that sentiment on this very thread!

Guerny,

Then…let’s say a person says he loves the Lord with all his heart, soul and mind, with all his strength. The same person then says, I love the Lord so much I want to be in union with Him all the time, I want to live in His presence all the time…this is a great grace given to this person to have this desire.

Now if that person is to do it on his own…a lone ranger…he will get there…but it is a long, long road…some use the idea of a ladder.

But if that person were to invite Mary to come along, he/she would get there that much faster and closer, Mary the short ladder.

So do you want to do it in memory of Frank Sinatra’s song, "I Do it My Waayyyyy…’ for who knows how long in grace’s time, or…without all the ‘works’…and you know what i mean here…be with Mary and be with the Lord in much less time – God’s time to be clear here than on that long, lonely road???

God gave man Woman so he would not be alone.

 

[jmcrae]

A nice way of putting it actually, Kathleen.
Asking Mary to be a part of the equation is fine with me. Like I said, the Marian dogmas are ok with me. But the idea that Jesus isn’t our intercessor and He’s too distant and unapproachable, can’t pray for us so we ask Mary to do what He can’t? That scares the crud out of me! And I’ve heard that sentiment on this very thread!

That’s not what I said at all.

What I said was that Jesus is the one who is receiving the prayers. Jesus is our Creator; He is not “distant” in any way. He is the one answering prayers. Obviously, you can and should pray to Jesus all the time, especially at Mass. But Mary is also with us, praying for us, and helping us.

“Where ever two or three of you are gathered,” says Jesus, “there am I in the midst of you,” so, don’t be shy to take Mary as your prayer partner!

And yes, okay, He can pray to the other members of the Trinity, but He also has the same power that they have, to answer our prayers.

 

[KathleenGee]

I guess I wasn’t clear.

Mary can take you much bette and closer to the Lord than you alone doing it your wayyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[KathleenGee]

I mean, the whole point is to be with union with God…so if you go there with Mary, you will find the way much shorter and He will much closer to you.

 

[PRmerger]

And Protestants generally do not believe in the Assumption either.

Yes, it is peculiar that some Protestants deny Mary her Rapture, but claim the right to their own Assumption. That is, Mary–she who held Divinity itself insider her–cannot be assumed into heaven, but they can be assumed into heaven at the Rapture. :whacky:

 

[joe370]

Hey gurney…

We are all intercessors for one another whether it’s a friend, mother, daughter, pastor, or saint.

That was why I said, If Mary the mother of God, cannot prayerfully mediate, from heaven, then neither can anyone else here on earth, including the apostles, their successors, or any of the church leaders out there in the world, regardless of denomination. We are all intercessors and our prayerful intercession for one another (including those in heaven) - goes up to the only mediator. Jesus allows us to participate in His one mediation by leaving room in His mystical body for our own mediation on behalf of others. Our mediating, united with our Lord’s mediation, furthers the work of His redemption and I think that is why Paul rejoices in his sufferings and completes what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body. Is there something lacking in Christ’s sufferings? Of course not. But because Jesus loves us so much, he allows us to participate in His one mediation by teaching and praying for others.

I never said Mary was born of sinful flesh. I believe she is Immaculate. I don’t have a problem with that teaching. I’ve made that clear.

Sorry if you thought that I was suggesting that you believe that Mary was born of sinful flesh. That was not my intention.

Mary fulfilled a role, the Mother of God. She gave birth to the High Priest, the Lord of Lords, the Saviour of the World and our Mediator. Devotion and appreciation of Mary is fine, but not necessary IMO. Devotion, worship, and faith in Christ Jesus is. I choose to spend my time going straight to that Mediator without going through other channels at this point. As you said, different strokes. The NT, Paul, the epistles, and Gospels tell me Jesus is my Saviour and Mediator so I pray to Him. I’m a simpleton
If you feel that Mary, as God’s created prototype, due to her sinlessness, detracts attention away from her Son Jesus, instead of focusing attention on her Son, then I certainly see why you find her, as God’s created prototype, unnecessary, however I do not understand it. Different strokes for different folks I guess…

If Mary fulfilled a role, and that role is over (I think that is what you meant) - then why does the bible tell us that her soul magnifies the Lord? How does her soul magnify the Lord or was that some past event in your mind?

I agree with you that devotion to Mary is fine, but not necessary, but appreciation of the mother of God being fine but not necessary, well, I must disagree. I can’t imagine anything more pleasing to Jesus than devotion to His mother, **outside of complete devotion to His word and His deed, and most importantly His salvific work on the cross. **

If you choose to spend your time going straight to Jesus, the Mediator without going through other channels, that certainly seems perfectly normal to me, but I wonder why Paul said:

*Romans 15:30 “Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me **in your prayers to God **for me…”
*

Paul asked his brothers to join with him in prayer for himself. He asked them to pray for him. Why the need for these “other channels?” When we need spiritual help, it is certainly biblical for us to ask other Christians to pray for us - * “pray for me.”* When we are in a time of need, we can certainly take it right to God, but the bible reminds us that we can also ask our fellow Christians to pray for us as well, including our fellow Christians residing with Jesus in Heaven. All of our prayers are directed straight to the one and only mediator, JC, when we ask others to pray for us. I could ask you to pray for me or I could simply ask God; no doubt about that. Perhaps it is this inter-exchange of prayer that pleases God most, for the simple fact that God sees one brother or sister in Christ, showing concern for another brother or sister in Christ. Perhaps it is this sort of prayer that binds us all as one, in God’s mind, kind of like the Eucharist - a holy matrix so to speak.

Since there is one bread, we who are many* are one body**; for we all partake of the one bread.*

Although we are many, we become one, through intercessory prayer for one another, and the full effects of both the Eucharist and intercessory prayer, will be fully manifested once we are all together with our Lord, in Heaven.

Gurney, does it seem at all plausible to you that Mary’s request to our Lord, (due to her Immaculate status) - on our behalf, might have a tad more influence on our Lord, as well as all the immaculate people now residing in Heaven with God, making requests to God on our behalf, for that matter?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I never said that people cannot pray for one another and be intercessors. I never said Mary cannot pray for us as if her hands were tied or something to that effect? I never said prayer to her was a sinful or useless practice. I am merely saying that Christ Jesus is our ultimate High Priest we are told in Hebrews. He is our great mediator. I pray directly to him usually. With the rosary I pray to both Our Saviour and Mary.

Hey gurney…
That was why I said, If Mary the mother of God, cannot prayerfully mediate, from heaven, then neither can anyone else here on earth, including the apostles, their successors, or any of the church leaders out there in the world, regardless of denomination. We are all intercessors and our prayerful intercession for one another (including those in heaven) - goes up to the only mediator. Jesus allows us to participate in His one mediation by leaving room in His mystical body for our own mediation on behalf of others. Our mediating, united with our Lord’s mediation, furthers the work of His redemption and I think that is why Paul rejoices in his sufferings and completes what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body. Is there something lacking in Christ’s sufferings? Of course not. But because Jesus loves us so much, he allows us to participate in His one mediation by teaching and praying for others.

Not a problem. No offense taken.
Sorry if you thought that I was suggesting that you believe that Mary was born of sinful flesh. That was not my intention.

I would tend to say yes, it was her magnification of God in the act of saying Yes to God and playing the ultimate role any human had ever played, giving birth to God’s Son.
If Mary fulfilled a role, and that role is over (I think that is what you meant) - then why does the bible tell us that her soul magnifies the Lord? How does her soul magnify the Lord or was that some past event in your mind?

I don’t disagree with you. I don’t think it’s ok to not appreciate Mary. It denegrates the Incarnation and shows an incomplete understanding of Mary’s role in our salvation and as Mother of the Church. No disagreement from me. I never implied otherwise. I am a Mary fan.
I agree with you that devotion to Mary is fine, but not necessary, but appreciation of the mother of God being fine but not necessary, well, I must disagree. I can’t imagine anything more pleasing to Jesus than devotion to His mother, **outside of complete devotion to His word and His deed, and most importantly His salvific work on the cross. **

If you choose to spend your time going straight to Jesus, the Mediator without going through other channels, that certainly seems perfectly normal to me, but I wonder why Paul said:

*Romans 15:30 “Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me **in your prayers to God ***for me…”

Paul asked his brothers to join with him in prayer for himself. He asked them to pray for him. Why the need for these “other channels?” When we need spiritual help, it is certainly biblical for us to ask other Christians to pray for us - * “pray for me.”* When we are in a time of need, we can certainly take it right to God, but the bible reminds us that we can also ask our fellow Christians to pray for us as well, including our fellow Christians residing with Jesus in Heaven. All of our prayers are directed straight to the one and only mediator, JC, when we ask others to pray for us. I could ask you to pray for me or I could simply ask God; no doubt about that. Perhaps it is this inter-exchange of prayer that pleases God most, for the simple fact that God sees one brother or sister in Christ, showing concern for another brother or sister in Christ. Perhaps it is this sort of prayer that binds us all as one, in God’s mind, kind of like the Eucharist - a holy matrix so to speak.

Since there is one bread, we who are many* are one body***; for we all partake of the one bread.

Although we are many, we become one, through intercessory prayer for one another, and the full effects of both the Eucharist and intercessory prayer, will be fully manifested once we are all together with our Lord, in Heaven.

Gurney, does it seem at all plausible to you that Mary’s request to our Lord, (due to her Immaculate status) - on our behalf, might have a tad more influence on our Lord, as well as all the immaculate people now residing in Heaven with God, making requests to God on our behalf, for that matter?

My thread is not about whether or not Mary is holy, special, set apart, Immaculate, a great intercessor, close to Christ in heaven, etc. My thread OP was about why the Catholic Church elevated these Marian dogmas to infallible, anathema-level proclamations that require total agreement or else one can start stoking the fires of brimstone. It’s not whether or not Mary is Theotokos, sanctified, immaculate. It’s about whether one’s salvation is dependent upon believing she was assumed? It’s not a thread hell-bent on trashing Mary. I would NEVER seek to do that. I’m teaching my 4-year-old daughter how to pray the rosary right now as well as the Marian prayers. I’m a fan, as I said, just not convinced these are essential to my salvation and like the (name removed by moderator)ut people have given. I appreciate it as well.

God bless.

 

[joe370]

Hey gurne…

My thread is not about whether or not Mary is holy, special, set apart, Immaculate, a great intercessor, close to Christ in heaven, etc. My thread OP was about why the Catholic Church elevated these Marian dogmas to infallible, anathema-level proclamations that require total agreement or else one can start stoking the fires of brimstone.

1. Is it your understanding that if one belonging to the CC does not agree with the CC regarding one of the Marian dogma’s then that person will absolutely go to hell?
   Or
2. Is it your understanding that if one belonging to the CC does not agree with the CC regarding one (or all) - of the Marian dogma’s then that person will be asked to leave the CC for not adhering to the church charter, so to speak?

It’s not whether or not Mary is Theotokos, sanctified, immaculate. It’s about whether one’s salvation is dependent upon believing she was assumed? It’s not a thread hell-bent on trashing Mary. I would NEVER seek to do that. I’m teaching my 4-year-old daughter how to pray the rosary right now as well as the Marian prayers. I’m a fan, as I said, just not convinced these are essential to my salvation and like the (name removed by moderator)ut people have given. I appreciate it as well.

Well if it’s #1 then one’s salvation is dependent upon believing she was assumed etc…but I believe it is number 2. Let me know if you find an official catholic document that declares that these dogmas must be observed/believed, and that they are in fact mandatory under the anathema of eternal hell? There is nothing in the CCC but maybe you have access to something I do not. Gosh, I really hope that you are wrong about the CC teaching that salvation depends on the Marian dogma.

 

[Edwin78]

Hi Joe

Let me know if you find an official catholic document that declares that these dogmas must be observed/believed, and that they are in fact mandatory under the anathema of eternal hell? There is nothing in the CCC but maybe you have access to something I do not. Gosh, I really hope that you are wrong about the CC teaching that salvation depends on the Marian dogma.

Well, there is…from the document itself that infallibly defined the Assumption of Mary, Munificentissimus Deus.

1. For which reason, after we have poured forth prayers of supplication again and again to God, and have invoked the light of the Spirit of Truth, for the glory of Almighty God who has lavished his special affection upon the Virgin Mary, for the honor of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages and the Victor over sin and death, for the increase of the glory of that same august Mother, and for the joy and exultation of the entire Church; by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.
2. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.

…

1. It is forbidden to any man to change this, our declaration, pronouncement, and definition or, by rash attempt, to oppose and counter it. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

 

[KathleenGee]

And I respond to the previous declaration…what is the beef?

The Church has been studying sanctity for 2,000 years in its members and how they live out the Gospel. We have the witness of the Apostles, and St. Paul and their difficulties and struggles…

We have the saints and mystics…and these were all sinners. The Church is primarily made up of sinners.

And Mary is a member of the Church as well, but she did not sin. But she is part of us. And she is the model par excellence in the walk in holiness to God.

So to deny Mary and her sanctity is to have an incomplete understanding of who the Holy Trinity is and who we are in terms of growing in holiness. This incomplete understanding then can not provide the correct understanding of Who Christ is as the Atonement of sin.

It is about God and us and Mary…the bridge…the sea of grace.

It is through grace that we are savaed. It is through Mary in Jesus Christ we are saved…She is the point of humanity that Christ became Man in union with the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Trinity, Mary, and us fulfills the complete understanding of the Incarnation. To deny any aspect of God and Mary in return affects us and our redemption.

 

[Reuben_J]

Let me start by saying that I DO AFFIRM the dogmas of the Blessed Virgin Mary–the immaculate conception, assumption, perpetual virginity, all of it. I have NO problems with it whatsoever.

However, in my discussions with people who do disagree with me on these issues, the usual concern is "why is belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity or her immaculate nature or her being assumed into heaven essential for my salvation? Why anathemize people over these issues that are not salvific at all?"
I’d really like to have a discussion that answers that exact question.

Plus I’d like to impose a rule if I may. Please do not say, “because Holy Mother Church tells me so” or anything about the Magisterium or papacy. Why does the Church feel this is a salvation issue?

I’d love to hear people’s points of view on this. As stated, this isn’t about me. I already believe the dogmas. I’d just like a good discussion answering the bold question.

Thanks and blessings to all who post

1st of all the premise of the OP is essentially Protestant and we arguing Catholic doctrine on a premise that’s absent in Catholic belief. But anyway let it be. Talking about the ‘essential for salvation’ is unchristian and a modern Protestant innovation; not all Protestants though. There is no such thing in Christianity as the essential for salvation because it is a package not a pick and chooses.

If one loves Jesus, one will love everything about him not the minimum requirement. Just as Peter said in the washing of the feet, ‘if that is so Lord, let me wash not just the feet but all your body’. Christianity is like that; one loves everything about it. And Jesus is just not thrown for nowhere from heaven and appeared on earth just like that. He was a man, had a family, parents, an occupation and livelihood like all human do. Thus it is not logical to pick and choose about him.

So to the question: why is belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity or her immaculate nature or her being assumed into heaven essential for my salvation?

Actually it is what you do with the belief or unbelief. If in your unbelief, you would go around gathering signatures and petition to the Vatican denying the doctrine, it would most probably affect your salvation as then you are causing confusion to the people of the Church besides being disobedient.

But I suppose the most practical thing that could happen because you do not believe, you will not attend the Feast of the Assumption mass and will not confess it as sin as violating the day of obligation. Then you will be in sin as it will be against the Church Commandment and persisting doing it will probably affect your salvation.

But if in your unbelief, you just keep it in your heart but at the same time go to church as usual an observing all activities related to the Assumption, most probably you will be saved. You will only fall into the category of little faith perhaps without realizing it. It is little faith; it is not totally unbelief because you are still participating in the said activities. The Lord says it is OK to have little faith as we cannot underestimate the power of the grace of God to change unbelief to believe.

So I think, it depends on the degree of your unbelief before it can seriously affect your salvation.

God bless.