Marian Teachings in East and West

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Acknowledging your point, its not clear to me that such was true in all cases. Clearly, that is the form of uniatism to which the Orthodox did rightfully object, but it does seem as if that charge was exaggerated in certain cases (e.g. my own Ruthenian Church). More specifically, uniatism is often described as if the Roman Catholic Church actively sought to annex Orthodox communities under this model, as if it were an active from of proselytization. History provides other reasons for the communities themselves to reunite with Rome.
I know we’re straying off-topic here, but this does highlight a very real difference in experiences between the various Eastern Churches. In the case of the Melkite Church the “uniates” were the Antiochian Orthodox who broke with their Patriarch and Synod and placed themselves under Constantinople for some time until autocephaly was given to them.

So it’s a very mixed bag, and it’s not always obvious which side is “truer” to the roots of the tradition.

Peace and God bless!
 
You’re right, I shouldn’t make it sound like a one-size-fits-all descriptions of those unions.
No worries!

To Ghosty’s point, we should get back on topic. I’ll close this “diversion” out by suggesting that the devotion to the Theotokos remained constant throughout these sundry unions. Hopefully all would agree on that! 🙂
 
The eastern church split from the western church because of an excommunication that wasnt authorized by the pope, and as far as im aware that wasnt the only point the eastern church also disagreed with. ,
 
The eastern church split from the western church because of an excommunication that wasnt authorized by the pope, and as far as im aware that wasnt the only point the eastern church also disagreed with. ,
Anything to add about Marian teachings of the East and West?
 
Anything to add about Marian teachings of the East and West?
On the Immaculate Conception there was no definition made initially, as is usual for dogmas. For hundreds of years that was argumentation in the west over when the Virgin Mary was blessed. It has been a longstanding tradition and teaching that she was Ever-Virgin. Also, the Virgin Mary gave miraculous birth to Our Lord, remaining physical integrity, before, during, and after the birth. (This means her reproductive organs were not damaged.)
 
On the Immaculate Conception there was no definition made initially, as is usual for dogmas. For hundreds of years that was argumentation in the west over when the Virgin Mary was blessed. It has been a longstanding tradition and teaching that she was Ever-Virgin. Also, the Virgin Mary gave miraculous birth to Our Lord, remaining physical integrity, before, during, and after the birth. (This means her reproductive organs were not damaged.)
But the West and East had no different teaching the first 200-years. In particular this theory has always been consistant. We have nothing which indicates otherwise, by the period of Ambrose, Augustine, Athanasius we hear this…

Prayer to Mary, Mother of Grace
It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master who was born of you. For this reason, you are called full of grace. Remember us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, Virgin full of graces.

St Athanasius, Bishop and Doctor
 
Course then theres the Bible…

1:28 The Angel entered her presence, and he said to her, “Peace to you, full of grace, our Lord is with you; you are blessed among women.”

1:29 But when she saw him, she was alarmed at his word, and she was wondering, “What is this greeting?”

1:30 And the Angel said to her, “Do not fear, Maryam, for you have found favor with God

1:31 For behold, you shall conceive and you shall give birth to a son, and you shall call his name Yeshua.

1:32 This One will be great and he will be called The Son of The Highest and THE LORD JEHOVAH will give to him the throne of David his father,

1:33 And he will reign over the house of Jaqob eternally and to his Kingdom there will not be an end

Now the conversation turns to Marys lack of undertsanding, but you see Mary is already Full of Grace. already acknowledged not by God but the entire Celestial Court.

1] She is “already” full of grace.

2] She is “already” Blessed among women.

3] She has “already” found favor with the Lord.

4] It is “preconceived” She shall be the Mother of God.

5] The Celestial Court is without doubt in agreement. As that was decided with Lucifer. And here acknowledged by Gabrial.

1:34 “How will this be, for no man has known me?”

How will what be? That She should bear a child.

1:35 The Angel answered and said to her, “The Spirit of Holiness shall come and the power of The Highest shall rest upon you, therefore he who shall be begotten in you shall be holy and he shall be called the Son of God.”

And how is He who is begotten in Her the Son of God, had Mary not been prepared by the supernatural beforehand. Which I believe the exegesis indicates. Mary didn’t become 1-5 when the HS arrived, She was already in this state of Grace from "conception? Better know “today” as the immaculate conception.

To bad Athanasius was exiled so often, he would have had more time to explain this aspect I believe he deeply understood as we see in his Prayer.
 
On the Immaculate Conception there was no definition made initially, as is usual for dogmas. For hundreds of years that was argumentation in the west over when the Virgin Mary was blessed. It has been a longstanding tradition and teaching that she was Ever-Virgin. Also, the Virgin Mary gave miraculous birth to Our Lord, remaining physical integrity, before, during, and after the birth. (This means her reproductive organs were not damaged.)
It simply fascinates me that such explicit details have been so obsessively pondered for so long by so many.
 
But the West and East had no different teaching the first 200-years. In particular this theory has always been consistant. We have nothing which indicates otherwise, by the period of Ambrose, Augustine, Athanasius we hear this…

Prayer to Mary, Mother of Grace
It becomes you to be mindful of us, as you stand near him who granted you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Help us for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master who was born of you. For this reason, you are called full of grace. Remember us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, Virgin full of graces.

St Athanasius, Bishop and Doctor
Bear in mind that this quote has no bearing on the Immaculate Conception. It simply states that she was full of Grace, not that she was full of Grace from conception.

ByzCathCantor:
It simply fascinates me that such explicit details have been so obsessively pondered for so long by so many.
This kind of thing has always bothered me, to be honest. I’ve never understood why our Lady’s “physical integrity” was so integral to the notion of a Virgin birth. It always seemed like such a bizarre angle of argument, and yet the Fathers considered it important enough to discuss despite no actual accounts of doctor examinations or even first-hand knowledge about it. 🤷

Peace and God bless!
 
Tradition seems to be the connecting factor.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CC0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ewtn.com%2Flibrary%2FANSWERS%2Ffr90203.htm&ei=5dVBUOuWO8m66AHctYHwCA&usg=AFQjCNHe8pJ7HKy47SB_qIdS7cs_CWombA&sig2=1kiu9Xx-kccLdAYd4EeREA

Without doubt much has been said in regards to Marys perpetual virginity. Physical integrity I believe was contingent to the thought process of purity not only of body but of thought in regards to sin. As we see above most noted with St. Ambrose (397 A.D.), bishop of Milan, proclaimed Christ who was “born of a virgin,” and adds, “Mary was a Virgin not in body only, but mind also . . . so pure that she was chosen to be the Mother of the Lord. God made her whom He had chosen and chose her of whom He would be made.”

Its a compelling arguement which I believe Bl Duns Scotus culminates with his contemplation a few years after Aquinas had much conflict with this by switching the focus of the agruement as stated above to a preservative redemption opposed to a restorative redemption.

The question which erks me is if this was know and preconceived by God the Father which I believe it was, He is not subject to time, why would He wait for the purification in a time incapsulated manner. This is like your or I viewing a clock and thinking, “I could do this later.” I can’t comprehend this in God. Certainly this wasn’t a in the moment choice. That would lack for certain.

Its a matter of two paths which arrive at the same point. Yet both paths imply something very different on a moral ethical level. Yet this moral ethical level is “never” questioned in the history of the church till the later reformers. I see it as the high moral ethical road.

Without a doubt a mystery which I believe will be further clarified in time by history. Professor Pelikan wrote on Mary in the mid-late 90’s, I have yet to see a better researched piece since then. However, much more has already came to light through Patristic reasearch in the early church liturgy and which dates earlier than canon and also the christian works in early christianity such as Acts of Andrew.

For example by tradition Joachim and Anne are considered to be the names of the parents of Mary, the Mother of God. We have no historical evidence of any elements of their lives, including their names. Any stories about Mary’s parents come to us through legend and tradition. Or the Gospel of James yet this cannot be trusted to be factual, historical, or the Word of God.

Why is it then that a Feast day is held is regard to this? Its Faith through Tradition for there is no other explaination. We are lost to explain here. Its far by me to state this isn’t correct in the light of the history of the Church.

Its unfortunate that the Humanity/Divinity of the Lord was so highly contested by heretics in these years which draws all the energy of focus to Christ by many of the greatest minds of those early centuries. Biblically also and rightfully so.

St. Athanasius is a great example, while his work doesn’t reflect the IC. Its worthy of comment since it shows how Mary is thought of as Queen of Heaven and mediator of Grace through the HS. Another thought highly contested today and a dividing area for much of Christianity also. The idea that “Mary is not different than any other Christian woman” is only a means to justify ones own thought process in cognative theory.

If Mary had been prone to the “thought” of sin. Then why wouldn’t She be also subjected to the thought of mortal sin? Had this been the case then what we encounter here is truly a wonder since the thought/emotion/reaction process is so interconnected. Its not that individuals can’t reach a high point or moral ethical level. Its that cognitive defined enters into a new realm with Mary of which I believe we have no other model to compare with in humanity. But the humanity the Lord Himself took on in humility through Mary. So much comes into play here that I believe the Coptic Church Tradition on Marys childhood is correct if indeed the Early Church Fathers are correct. While we cannot prove by record what indeed happened from Marys birth to the age of Conception. The Coptic Tradition on a moral ethical level makes the most sense. Audio, Visual, Short and Long term memory, on a path in history, in a human life, all interact, including how quickly we process.

Now to view Mary in these very “normal” terms which we all are subject to be it “normal” itself is subjective. Mary is either truly an exception, or we have a very “normal” woman here which counters the thinking proposed very early on. Mary would have had to have been subjected to all this, that all us as humans are subjected to, be it by cooperation, or as part of the path we walk and the dust which accumulates on us. This rolled off Christ like water to a duck. Same I believe occurs with Mary.

As we view Mary we see no comparison. Who? IMHO its not difficult to see the idea of Queen or mediator, Mother of God, Virgin, etc. Or we would have to concede we are discussing something very different than the thought process of the Early Church Fathers.

Mystery, Mystery, and more Mystery. I see no reason in debating it. However I do believe Erasmus was correct and we should stick to the teachings of the Church non-dogmatically, and admit we do not have all the answers! Why? Because the Church has served mankind, the family and the needy and sick throughout history, and more so today than ever. The family was the concern of Erasmus, and look whats occured in a very quick 500 years? This very idea is rationalized today and in the name of Christianity.

The solution is a united Apostolic Church. While many dividing issues may seem like large gaps to some. They pale in comparision to what man contemplates as Salvation today, even in aspects of Christianity.
 
Dear brother Peter,
the Council of Florence set the schism in stone
I don’t know what CATHOLIC thinks that the theological matter of a dogmatic declaration cannot be open to further understanding and fine-tuning (as it were).

The history of the first 6 Ecumenical Councils amply demonstrates that this development is a theological fact. The 4th through 6th themselves demonstrated that the theological language of dogmatic decrees can be further refined for the sake of understanding and unity.

It’s a matter of investigating what the respective theological expressions are really trying to teach. This approach is dear to my heart as an Oriental (and it is reflected in my signature line below). It is what has allowed for the common Christological Statements to come about between the Catholic Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches (as well as the EO and the OO, to a not-too-much-lesser extent).

That said, the dogmatic declarations of the Council of Florence were definitely expressed heavily in Latinese. We non-Latins can find unity with the Latins in the Faith that underlies those expressions, if not the theological expressions themselves.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Code:
                 Originally Posted by **Peter J**
Indeed, I’m not claiming that either. Rather, I’m pointing out that it wasn’t a “full schism” (if you will) prior to the Council of Florence. Many people think it was because they view the history anachronistically. E.g they’ll say “If the 2 sides weren’t in full schism after 1054, then why did the Catholic Church hold ecumenical councils – Lateran I, Lateran II, Lateran III, Lateran IV, Lyon I, Vienne, and Constance – without the Orthodox?” But such an objection really holds no water, because those 7 councils (along with Lyon II, which did have some Eastern participation) were only added to the list of ecumenical councils in the 16th century, effectively back-dating the schism to the 11th century.
 
Indeed, I’m not claiming that either. Rather, I’m pointing out that it wasn’t a “full schism” (if you will) prior to the Council of Florence. Many people think it was because they view the history anachronistically. E.g they’ll say “If the 2 sides weren’t in full schism after 1054, then why did the Catholic Church hold ecumenical councils – Lateran I, Lateran II, Lateran III, Lateran IV, Lyon I, Vienne, and Constance – without the Orthodox?” But such an objection really holds no water, because those 7 councils (along with Lyon II, which did have some Eastern participation) were only added to the list of ecumenical councils in the 16th century, effectively back-dating the schism to the 11th century.
Michael Palaeologus’s profession of faith which was read out at the second Council of Lyons included:“The Holy Roman Church possesses the supreme and full primacy and principality over the whole Catholic Church. She truly and humbly acknowledges that she received this from the Lord himself in blessed Peter, the prince and chief of the apostles, whose successor the Roman Pontiff is, together with the fullness of power. And since before all others she has the duty of defending the truth of the faith, so if any questions arise concerning the faith, it is by her judgment that they must be settled.”

Quote from Vatican I, Pastor Aeternus
 
Just to be clear this should not imply that Eastern Catholics must adhere to all the traditional Western theological constructs which generally surround the dogma and informed the way the document in which the dogma was proclaimed was worded. What is required is that they, being part of “all the faithful”, firmly and resolutely believe the dogma itself.
Thank you for stating this quite eloquently. Most people don’t understand that many of the “issues” are not yet “clearly defined” and the Churches are actively working toward “resolution” and “understanding” however; we’re not there and there are some issues that we may never “fully agree with” however. we are in communion with one another.
In many cases, we have many “easterners” who themselves don’t know their own faith by neglect or; like it or not, “Latinization.”
This is the reason out late Pope, John Paul II urged the Eastern Churches to return to “Our Traditions and to remove all Latinization.”
This may sound easy but we all know that it is a slow and often delicate process. It is often complicated further by the fact that many of our own Priests have not been properly educated in our own faith second to education in western seminaries (I speak for the Ukrainian Catholic Church only).
Through God’s grace and mercy things will come to resolution but that will require much prayer and fasting. Trust me, I do my best to respect the “whole process” but I have several issues … most of them not particularly theological but “authoritative” as my 45+ years has shown me much “disrespect of the Eastern Churches” and being told that “You’re nothing more than a thorn in our side.”
I can understand the feeble mindedness of the individuals however; I am growingly intolerant of the "Do what we say and not what we do group (i.e. the ordination of married men)
 
Thank you for stating this quite eloquently. Most people don’t understand that many of the “issues” are not yet “clearly defined” and the Churches are actively working toward “resolution” and “understanding” however; we’re not there and there are some issues that we may never “fully agree with” however. we are in communion with one another.
In many cases, we have many “easterners” who themselves don’t know their own faith by neglect or; like it or not, “Latinization.”
This is the reason out late Pope, John Paul II urged the Eastern Churches to return to “Our Traditions and to remove all Latinization.”
This may sound easy but we all know that it is a slow and often delicate process. It is often complicated further by the fact that many of our own Priests have not been properly educated in our own faith second to education in western seminaries (I speak for the Ukrainian Catholic Church only).
Through God’s grace and mercy things will come to resolution but that will require much prayer and fasting. Trust me, I do my best to respect the “whole process” but I have several issues … most of them not particularly theological but “authoritative” as my 45+ years has shown me much “disrespect of the Eastern Churches” and being told that “You’re nothing more than a thorn in our side.”
I can understand the feeble mindedness of the individuals however; I am growingly intolerant of the "Do what we say and not what we do group (i.e. the ordination of married men)
Right, progress not perfection doc. Much mystery which requires charity when discussed.
 
Thank you for stating this quite eloquently. Most people don’t understand that many of the “issues” are not yet “clearly defined” and the Churches are actively working toward “resolution” and “understanding” however; we’re not there and there are some issues that we may never “fully agree with” however. we are in communion with one another.
In many cases, we have many “easterners” who themselves don’t know their own faith by neglect or; like it or not, “Latinization.”
This is the reason out late Pope, John Paul II urged the Eastern Churches to return to “Our Traditions and to remove all Latinization.”
This may sound easy but we all know that it is a slow and often delicate process. It is often complicated further by the fact that many of our own Priests have not been properly educated in our own faith second to education in western seminaries (I speak for the Ukrainian Catholic Church only).
Through God’s grace and mercy things will come to resolution but that will require much prayer and fasting. Trust me, I do my best to respect the “whole process” but I have several issues … most of them not particularly theological but “authoritative” as my 45+ years has shown me much “disrespect of the Eastern Churches” and being told that “You’re nothing more than a thorn in our side.”
I can understand the feeble mindedness of the individuals however; I am growingly intolerant of the "Do what we say and not what we do group (i.e. the ordination of married men)
Glory to Jesus Christ, and Christ is in our midst!

Well put, my friend.

On the subject of married clergy really quickly, a case was made by the late Reverend Casimir Kucharek, about its success, in his book: Byzantine Catechism for Adults: " The Eastern Churches never saw any conflict between married love and love for God, between the vocation to be father and husband, and that of following the call to the diaconate, or the priesthood. They are after all, following a scriptural injunction: Paul to Timothy, looking for in a man he wants to ordain a bishop: the candiddate should be a husband of one wife. "He must not have been married more than once… he must be a man who manages his own family well and brings his children up to obey him and be well-behaved; how can any man who does not understand how ot manage his own family have responsibility for the church of God? " (1Tm 3:2) (p. 292, 293)
 
If a denomination does not believe it, they are not in communion with the true Church of Jesus Christ. So, Byzantine Catholics would believe this dogma as they are in communion with Rome while Eastern Orthodox churches (or any other denomination) who are not in communion with Rome can choose to believe it or not. Not believing in a dogma puts you outside of communion with Rome, regardless of if you claim the world catholic or not. That was my point.

That is my understanding. If this is not true, I would like to know but I would want to see something in an official document, not just a post on CAF.

God Bless.
There is something to consider here: the Orthodox do believe in the Immaculate Conception however; they don’t subscribe to it as “Dogmatic”… it is understood to be fact. As mentioned in an earlier post, we, allow me to speak for Ruthenian and Ukrainian Catholics, believe in the Immaculate Conception however; not for the same “expressed theological reason.” Our expression of the theology is different; we follow Orthodox theological expression.
The best quote I heard, though I can’t say verbatim … "We Orthodox do believe in the Immaculate Conception, Mary was conceived in the most perfect and pure manner by the two (Joachim and Anna) who came together in the perfect expression of Holiness… The Dogma is an expression that is not necessary as it is already a fact and the Dogma raises all kinds of questions that need not be asked…
I suggest listening to Fr. Thomas Hopko’s series “Who is the Theotokos” (particularly 1-2) in order to better understand what the “Orthodox” really teach and therefore: what the Ruthenian and Ukranian Catholics believe… let me rephrase: what our theology teaches as most of us have been Latinized and really don’t know anymore.
 
Glory to Jesus Christ, and Christ is in our midst!

Well put, my friend.

On the subject of married clergy really quickly, a case was made by the late Reverend Casimir Kucharek, about its success, in his book: Byzantine Catechism for Adults: " The Eastern Churches never saw any conflict between married love and love for God, between the vocation to be father and husband, and that of following the call to the diaconate, or the priesthood. They are after all, following a scriptural injunction: Paul to Timothy, looking for in a man he wants to ordain a bishop: the candiddate should be a husband of one wife. "He must not have been married more than once… he must be a man who manages his own family well and brings his children up to obey him and be well-behaved; how can any man who does not understand how ot manage his own family have responsibility for the church of God? " (1Tm 3:2) (p. 292, 293)
Though I agree, I must say that whether “married” or “celibate,” the issue is left to the Mystery of God… we assume that the Priest is speaking by the gists of the Holy Spirit…
Now on the other hand, my wife is Latin Rite, and she absolutely loves confession with a married Priests as she finds that certain weaknesses/faults/sins we have as parents are much, much better addressed…
The issue is complex in so much as the “Call” is the “Call” and that whether married or celibate, the Cross is great…
My wife is finally coming to terms with many of these things and though she has not yet fully connected (she has certain ground rules in place: LOL)… she knows that I was on the path to ordination prior to meeting her… and she is slowly coming to terms with the real possibility of being a Priests wife… there is much sacrifice on all sides…
 
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